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BBB - nowhere close

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Fenixgoon said:
But catering to him hasn't been productive, either.
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MrSquished said:
Most concessions in this bill are catered to him, and that got Manchin on fucking Fox news to drop the news. That went swimmingly
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IronWing said:
It's been visible to all that Manchin is negotiating in bad faith and has been for months. There is no upside to other Dems to continue the charade.
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All these!!

So frustrating to have life-altering legislation submarined by this cockroach.

Democrats keeping their kid gloves on...
 
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Plus he chose the autocratic insurrectionist alt right propaganda platform aka Fox News to deliver the message.
Shit human being.
 
K1052 said:
Yes, I didn't mean to lend credibility to his position. I think it's bullshit and most studies done on the matter agree. At the end of the day though I really doubt there is anything that will change his mind so we've got to deal even if the limitations are irrational.
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Oh I know your position 🙂

Man if the Democrats ever get hearing aids covered by Medicare and my mom uses that benefit, I'll try my best to keep her from spending the savings on crack cocaine. Do my duty for the Manchin's and all the Republicans of the country. You know, really save America from the commies
 
Fenixgoon said:
One can only hope that this massive public shaming results in Manchin changing his mind.
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Eh probably more people telling him he way overstepped for just having his name in a nothing press release saying negotiations would pick up next year (which may not have even been intentional). Hardcore diva shit.

But now he has to pull back because it looks (and is) stupid.
 
Again, the problem is now with the democrats. Democrats "could" skillfully turn a Manchin NO into a big democrat WIN come 2022.
If it is indeed true that a vast majority of Americans WANT BBB, then simply have every democrat candidate running for election or for re-election in 2022 promise the vast majority of Americans that THEY CAN have the BBB by simply voting for democrats in 2022, and ONLY for democrats in 2022. This should be the drum beat given by every democrat up for election and seeking election against a republican. Beat that drum hour after hour. Beat that drum on CNN, on MSNBC, on FOX (if given the chance). Make it perfectly clear to middle class America that they CAN HAVE that BBB and everything within that BBB bill IF ONLY every voter out there votes for democrats.

Make the Joe Manchin's a non issue by increasing the democrats majority in the house and in the senate. And then... let Joe Manchin vote however the hell he wants BECAUSE it won't matter if we have enough re-elected and newly elected democrats come 2022. Let Joe Manchin go back to his state of WEST VIRGINIA and explain WHY he did not vote for the BBB. And I'd bet that when BBB then passes with a democrat majority in the house and senate, then I bet that West Virginia gives Joe Manchin the boot. Especially after the huge benefits of BBB are felt by West Virginians, West Virginians will love BBB even BBbetter.

HOWEVER.... democrats MUST begin that drum beat NOW, begin the campaign NOW to educate every voter that ONLY by electing democrats in 2022 can and will middle class America enjoy those benefits from BBB. And.... if some of those middle class Americans are republicans and typically vote for republicans, then this one time only republicans should vote for the democrat as to get the BBB bill passed. And if come 2024 should those republicans who voted democrat in 2022 feel dirtied or disgraced because they voted democrats into office in 2022, then in 2024 those same republicans can simply switch back and vote for republicans again. Note for the republicans.... vote for the democrat in 2022 AND THEN switch back to voting republican if you must in 2024. Look at this as the LONG TERM. The long term being the passing of BBB in 2022 with a democrat majority.

And remember folks, if a republican is elected president come 2024 and the house and or senate goes back to republican rule in 2024, you can bet your ass that the new republican president will again insist on more tax cuts for the wealthy AND those tax cuts for the wealthy WILL PASS regardless of the cost to the national debt. While republicans bitch about the BBB cost, they will gladly ignore the costs when it comes to tax cuts for the wealthy. That is how they are.... we know this all too well.
 
sportage said:
Make the Joe Manchin's a non issue by increasing the democrats majority in the house and in the senate. And then... let Joe Manchin vote however the hell he wants BECAUSE it won't matter if we have enough re-elected and newly elected democrats come 2022. Let Joe Manchin go back to his state of WEST VIRGINIA and explain WHY he did not vote for the BBB. And I'd bet that when BBB then passes with a democrat majority in the house and senate, then I bet that West Virginia gives Joe Manchin the boot. Especially after the huge benefits of BBB are felt by West Virginians, West Virginians will love BBB even BBbetter.
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Former Rep Gov of Ohio John Kasich was defending Manchin on CNN. He mentioned public opinion polls shows Manchin has 61% support. And coincidentally, 61% of WV are against BBB.
 
eelw said:
Former Rep Gov of Ohio John Kasich was defending Manchin on CNN. He mentioned public opinion polls shows Manchin has 61% support. And coincidentally, 61% of WV are against BBB.
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Wow. That's some serious cognitive dissonance there. IIRC, VW is within the top 5 states in terms of poverty levels. I don't know much about WV, are they super proud? Anti-Federal government? What's the deal.
 
Ajay said:
Wow. That's some serious cognitive dissonance there. IIRC, VW is within the top 5 states in terms of poverty levels. I don't know much about WV, are they super proud? Anti-Federal government? What's the deal.
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They only got one cable channel: Fox.
 
Ajay said:
Wow. That's some serious cognitive dissonance there. IIRC, VW is within the top 5 states in terms of poverty levels. I don't know much about WV, are they super proud? Anti-Federal government? What's the deal.
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West Virginians are convinced that in some mythic past coal jobs were well paying and plentiful in West Virginia. Then the evil Dems and the federal government destroyed the coal industry. The truth is that the Wyoming coal industry round house kicked the West Virginia coal industry in the face. At the same time automation turned what had been over a hundred thousand low paying coal jobs into a couple thousand high paying coal jobs and under ten thousand low paying coal jobs. West Virginians have convinced themselves that the Republicans will bring back the glory days of black lung and mine cave-ins.
 
fskimospy said:
Evolution.


This comes back to your fundamental lack of understanding of how humans think. He values different things than you, therefore you conclude that he must be deluded or crazy or whatever.

I don't know what to tell you because this sort of understanding is almost certainly not something I can teach you and I don't get the sense that you want to learn.
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A primatologist once witnessed a pack of baboons being stalked by a leopard as they moved along the ground. Two young male baboons dropped back and attacked the leopard. They were both killed almost immediately but not before fatally wounding the leopard. Social primate evolution......

I made a mistake in this sentence and don't know if you read what I really meant: "Any difference of opinion I have with Manchin has nothing to do with this. The point is not what he believes but that he believes right." It should have read 'that he believes he is right'. I am not saying that what he believes is right or wrong, here, but that the danger is that he believes what he believes to be the truth. This makes it impossible for him to consider any alternative to his fanatical opinion. It makes it impossible, therefore, to consider the possibility that what he thinks of as his self interest is really in his self interest. That is my opinion of how he sees things, limited as to what it means to be selfish. as limited as your view of evolution. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you don't consider some people deluded or wrong? I don't think you can teach me much about 'this sort of thinking' as you fancy it to be because my sort of thinking, is it not obvious, is exactly what you are trying to apply to me.
 
IronWing said:
West Virginians are convinced that in some mythic past coal jobs were well paying and plentiful in West Virginia. Then the evil Dems and the federal government destroyed the coal industry. The truth is that the Wyoming coal industry round house kicked the West Virginia coal industry in the face. At the same time automation turned what had been over a hundred thousand low paying coal jobs into a couple thousand high paying coal jobs and under ten thousand low paying coal jobs. West Virginians have convinced themselves that the Republicans will bring back the glory days of black lung and mine cave-ins.
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they've also forgotten their own history of blowing up coal mining ops to get what they want
 
ivwshane said:
If manchin is a centrist democrat in West Virginia and voting democrats become upset with him then the GOP candidate has a much better chance of beating him. If he’s not going to support the very basic foundation of democrat policy then I couldn’t care less if he’s replaced by (what would have to be) a moderate Republican.

So why play with kid gloves? To protect the ability for Biden to keep appointing judges? Or what? The next president who more than likely won’t be a Republican can try and appoint judges? If republicans win the senate we get obstruction either way, except the republicans will take the blame.

I don’t see the down side of cleaning house.
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As I see it everything will play our exactly as it must. Whether Manchin gets booted or embraced will not be the result of anybody making enlightened decisions. Personally I agree with your vies more than I do fkimo's. Manchin believes apparently and for example, that if you give aid to poor families with children the money won't be spent on the kids but wasted because, apparently poor people are bad people incapable of making good judgments. Fucking stupid judgmental prick. Oops, sorry. Self hating me is leaking out......
 
ivwshane said:
If manchin is a centrist democrat in West Virginia and voting democrats become upset with him then the GOP candidate has a much better chance of beating him. If he’s not going to support the very basic foundation of democrat policy then I couldn’t care less if he’s replaced by (what would have to be) a moderate Republican.

So why play with kid gloves? To protect the ability for Biden to keep appointing judges? Or what? The next president who more than likely won’t be a Republican can try and appoint judges? If republicans win the senate we get obstruction either way, except the republicans will take the blame.

I don’t see the down side of cleaning house.
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I'd argue that we need more left of center 'moderated' democrats in the senate, even if they would be a bit of a PITA. If they can take states away from republican senators, then great! I mean, how else are the dems going to expand their base? They have no other way, with gerrymandering, etc. Trying to increase the 'base' with even more progressive democrats is going to take 50 years; when all the Boomers and GenX cohorts are dead, or nearly so.
 
IronWing said:
West Virginians are convinced that in some mythic past coal jobs were well paying and plentiful in West Virginia. Then the evil Dems and the federal government destroyed the coal industry. The truth is that the Wyoming coal industry round house kicked the West Virginia coal industry in the face. At the same time automation turned what had been over a hundred thousand low paying coal jobs into a couple thousand high paying coal jobs and under ten thousand low paying coal jobs. West Virginians have convinced themselves that the Republicans will bring back the glory days of black lung and mine cave-ins.
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Thanks. Sadly, there are politicians who won't them wake up from their dream because that 'utopia' earns votes.
 
Ajay said:
I'd argue that we need more left of center 'moderated' democrats in the senate, even if they would be a bit of a PITA. If they can take states away from republican senators, then great! I mean, how else are the dems going to expand their base? They have no other way, with gerrymandering, etc. Trying to increase the 'base' with even more progressive democrats is going to take 50 years; when all the Boomers and GenX cohorts are dead, or nearly so.
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If your ideas and policies are good then they should be able to stand up to scrutiny. As it stands now democrats don’t sell their policies and instead always go along with the latest reframing of the issue by republicans.
 
ivwshane said:
If your ideas and policies are good then they should be able to stand up to scrutiny. As it stands now democrats don’t sell their policies and instead always go along with the latest reframing of the issue by republicans.
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That and a whole bunch of other things. Promoting great ideas/policies have always been an Achilles heel in US politics. Now, we have a larger, less cohesive population who face a barrage of inputs for the lame ass MSM, Facebook, Twitter, blah, blah, blah. I was just recently reminded of just how far off the vaunted New York Times was when it came to the war against Iraq - completely duped. How are average folks at their kitchen tables and living rooms supposed to deal with all this noise? They can't. The republican hype train has surely moved the country further in the direction of voting based on emotional response to hot button topics. The democrats aren't all of one mind, an attempting to blast their various points out there to overcome republican disinformation and chaos just isn't working.

I just think having a broader party will help more people find a home in the democratic party and return some power to the democrats for long enough to get _some_ decent stuff done. Not what all the progressives want, sure, but that game is a losing one for now.
 
It's pretty sad that here in the US people are car-pooling to Tijuana to buy insulin that's 10X the price here and BBB would
have addressed that, (and a lot of other issues) as well. How the f***anyone in WV could support a douche like Manchin
I cannot understand.
 
Ajay said:
I'd argue that we need more left of center 'moderated' democrats in the senate, even if they would be a bit of a PITA. If they can take states away from republican senators, then great! I mean, how else are the dems going to expand their base? They have no other way, with gerrymandering, etc. Trying to increase the 'base' with even more progressive democrats is going to take 50 years; when all the Boomers and GenX cohorts are dead, or nearly so.
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I don't think boomers and genx are the problem. The approval rating for Biden has dropped 50 points among those under 30 since Jan.
 
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