BBB - nowhere close

[Heartbreaker]

Third, on the economics issue while he might be to the right of the median democrat he is FAR to the left of the median Republican.

Basically that graph is utterly meaningless because what it shows, is that most politicians just follow party lines most of the time.

Which is why there is a no mans land between the parties.

Separated from party lines, I doubt Manchin is that different than most republicans.

Ultimately the elephant in the room is that Manchin like the rest of them are bought and paid for by corporate donors.

 

[Jaskalas]

Also, I still bet either all of BBB or significant parts of it are passed in the next year or so.

I know not many people stand between it and passing. But that still seems highly optimistic.

 

[Jaskalas]

You’d think that they’d have enough resources available to them that they could fact check their beliefs.

Alas, a wealth of information is generally lost on humanity. For we prefer belief and religion over logic and reason. The eastern bloc is not wrong in that regard. They put their people to the boot, not out of cruelty, but due to sheer necessity as they see it. Our experiment with Democracy may be coming to an end. The question though, how do we turn it into something new and hopefully more effective, without becoming Russia or China ourselves?

 

[fskimospy]

Basically that graph is utterly meaningless because what it shows, is that most politicians just follow party lines most of the time.

Which is why there is a no mans land between the parties.

Separated from party lines, I doubt Manchin is that different than most republicans.

Ultimately the elephant in the room is that Manchin like the rest of them are bought and paid for by corporate donors.

1) Your time to say my source data was meaningless was before you tried to use it, not after. You clearly didn't think it was meaningless one post ago!
2) If you DO think all it shows is that politicians just toe the party line that's a really good reason to keep Manchin in the Democratic Party, as if he became a Republican his voting record would go far to the right.

People here act like the choice is between Manchin and some other, more progressive Democrat. It is not. You have one of three choices:

1) Democrat Manchin
2) Republican Manchin (likely far to the right of Democrat Manchin)
3) Some other Republican (probably completely insane)

That's your choice.

 

[Heartbreaker]

1) Your time to say my source data was meaningless was before you tried to use it, not after. You clearly didn't think it was meaningless one post ago!
2) If you DO think all it shows is that politicians just toe the party line that's a really good reason to keep Manchin in the Democratic Party, as if he became a Republican his voting record would go far to the right.

People here act like the choice is between Manchin and some other, more progressive Democrat. It is not. You have one of three choices:

1) Democrat Manchin
2) Republican Manchin (likely far to the right of Democrat Manchin)
3) Some other Republican (probably completely insane)

That's your choice.

4) Independent Manchin.

And you are basically agreeing with me that the data is useless, because if Manchin was a Republican his voting pattern would line up with other republicans.

 

[fskimospy]

4) Independent Manchin.

And you are basically agreeing with me that the data is useless, because if Manchin was a Republican his voting pattern would line up with other republicans.

Okay so by your logic independent Manchin votes to the right of where he votes now, another loss.

I am not agreeing with you, I was saying that even if your argument was entirely correct having him become a Republican is a terrible idea!

DW-NOMINATE is the best and most widely acclaimed empirical measure of political ideology that exists today. It is the gold standard.

 

[Ajay]

I mean one of his big wants in all this is to roll back the Trump tax cuts which I really doubt any Republican wishes to do.

Geez, thanks. I like him a lot more now. That bill was an insult to working class Americans, a slap in the face and a kick down the economic ladder. The balls on those senators who voted for this. Of course, the republican spin was almost miraculous .

 

[OrByte]

All the governing you see at the federal level is happening through the efforts of the Democrat party. There is no effort to govern coming from Republicans. This has been going on for years. If the Republican congress dropped off a cliff we wouldn't miss any of them, they aren't working for the American people.

Those that support the congressional GOP, how do you not see this?

The political spectrum that governs for the American people can be found within the democrat party. The congressional Dems represent the liberal through the conservative. Like it or not. The far right (today's GOP) just wants to burn everything down.

 

[Jaskalas]

Those that support the congressional GOP, how do you not see this?

Humans generally operate on belief and religion.
They do not want to see it, and so they do not. Not even willfully. Just as a consequence of tribal identity, and stress response. Some smart people know this to be true, and operate a news channel with hosts that are dedicated to fear mongering agitprop. Then social media came into existence... and the drip of insanity became a flood.

 

[woolfe9998]

Nation's largest coal mining union backs BBB, opposes Manchin's position.

Coal miners want Joe Manchin to reverse opposition to Build Back Better

Senator Joe Manchin is facing calls from a powerful group close to his heart to reconsider his opposition to the Build Back Better Act: Coal miners.

www.cnn.com

The 131-year-old UMWA called out several items that it believes are crucial to its members and communities, including extending the fee paid by coal companies to fund benefits received by victims of black lung.

"But now that fee will be cut in half, further shifting the burden of paying these benefits away from the coal companies and on to taxpayers," Roberts said.

So they were clever enough to put benefits for coal miners directly into the bill, but of course the benefits come at a cost to the their employers. And Manchin won't back the bill.

 

[woolfe9998]

1) Your time to say my source data was meaningless was before you tried to use it, not after. You clearly didn't think it was meaningless one post ago!
2) If you DO think all it shows is that politicians just toe the party line that's a really good reason to keep Manchin in the Democratic Party, as if he became a Republican his voting record would go far to the right.

People here act like the choice is between Manchin and some other, more progressive Democrat. It is not. You have one of three choices:

1) Democrat Manchin
2) Republican Manchin (likely far to the right of Democrat Manchin)
3) Some other Republican (probably completely insane)

That's your choice.

Of course Manchin the democrat is better than Manchin the republican, or some republican X who would otherwise fill the seat.

Doesn't change the fact that he's being an asshole right now.

If you have a choice between Hitler and Mussolini, you're going to choose Mussolini every time. Not making a direct point for point comparison between Manchin and Mussolini but the overall analogy holds.

Unfortunately as you note, we have no other choice. Too had for any attempt to combat climate change, yet again.

 

[fskimospy]

Of course Manchin the democrat is better than Manchin the republican, or some republican X who would otherwise fill the seat.

Doesn't change the fact that he's being an asshole right now.

If you have a choice between Hitler and Mussolini, you're going to choose Mussolini every time. Not making a direct point for point comparison between Manchin and Mussolini but the overall analogy holds.

Unfortunately as you note, we have no other choice. Too had for any attempt to combat climate change, yet again.

Assuming the initial reports I read are true Manchin was willing to give Biden the majority of what he wanted on climate change.

Even if not, I hear you - he's a dick! He's very far from where I am on a lot of important issues! I just don't see the value in complaining about him. We have no leverage and the only thing we could inspire him to do is become an independent or a Republican, which would be worse. Why waste our time?

Let's concentrate on getting rid of Sinema. She's someone we can successfully primary whose challenger has a good chance to win the general election.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I'm curious about what made Manchin balk. All I've read had been secretive. "the staffers know what I'm talking about"

 

[Sunburn74]

Of course Manchin the democrat is better than Manchin the republican, or some republican X who would otherwise fill the seat.

Doesn't change the fact that he's being an asshole right now.

If you have a choice between Hitler and Mussolini, you're going to choose Mussolini every time. Not making a direct point for point comparison between Manchin and Mussolini but the overall analogy holds.

Unfortunately as you note, we have no other choice. Too had for any attempt to combat climate change, yet again.

I dunno. I think for sure in 2024 the GOP will hold the house, senate and presidency. Realistically the Democratic party would do better to just kick him out and try to bolster their image imo.

 

[Roger Wilco]

This seems pretty necessary if the extra CTC is not extended.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1473361814071226370

 

[Bitek]

I mean Manchin doesn't think rich people do drugs? I bet some of the Murdochs are doing rails of coke off of some hookers right now as we speak

View attachment 54691

The fact that he said this is insane.

I've never heard anyone protest a tax cut on the basis of letting people keep more of their money is dangerous because they will just buy drugs.

Then JM goes on to complain about socialism...

Basically, working people can't be trusted with their own money, govt can't be trusted... So that just leaves the millionaire CEO class as the only responsible ones to get tax cuts
Oh look, JM is a millionaire coal company CEO.. How convenient.

 

[woolfe9998]

I dunno. I think for sure in 2024 the GOP will hold the house, senate and presidency. Realistically the Democratic party would do better to just kick him out and try to bolster their image imo.

The main problem I see with that course of action is that it may affect judicial and executive branch appointments.

 

[fskimospy]

I dunno. I think for sure in 2024 the GOP will hold the house, senate and presidency. Realistically the Democratic party would do better to just kick him out and try to bolster their image imo.

Considering the insanely wide range of things that could happen over the next three years this is nuts. For example with only two years to go until re-election Reagan's approval rating was 35% yet he won in a landslide. Why would you be so confident?

 

[fskimospy]

The main problem I see with that course of action is that it may affect judicial and executive branch appointments.

Not only would it destroy their agenda, it would alienate swing voters. This is all around just one of the worst political ideas in the country right now.

 

[Moonbeam]

If you look at the deal Manchin supposedly offered to Biden it is something that essentially every Republican would light their hair on fire opposing. Yes, it sucks that Manchin is so far to the right of most Democrats on these issues. Unfortunately, that's life. If you somehow convinced him to become a Republican his votes would get MUCH WORSE, because he would have to worry about winning a Republican primary.

Calls for Manchin to become a Republican are just angry people in a fit of pique considering shooting their own foot off.

I dunno. I think for sure in 2024 the GOP will hold the house, senate and presidency. Realistically the Democratic party would do better to just kick him out and try to bolster their image imo.

What to make of these two posts. I hardly know where to begin especially when the quotes above are in chronological order. It seems that Sunburn and many others are not persuaded by fskimospy's logic, a logic that I can't help but see as deeply deeply rational as well as deeply learned, and the explanation for the rejection of which by others I can explain in no other way than an unwillingness to accept the limits of rage. What am I getting at: I see fear truly as The Mind Killer, the killer of reason, of rational thought, and fear eventually always gets expressed as hate, the creator of rage. And rage, as I have seen in myself is there to protect against hopelessness that comes from unexpressed grief. I believe there is a deep fear that our Democracy is dying and all hope for a better future with it. So there is a spectrum of attitudes on the left, a disunity aligned, I think, along a spectrum of rage or more precisely, how able one is to rationally deal with frustration. When we do not get what we want, when we are pushed by circumstances to experience threat our tolerance for that state is determined by our ability to manage it. And this, I believe is why there can come a level of stress where we can lose our sanity.

Fskimospy, for example, as I think is clear in this thread, believes enough in himself, based on a highly sophisticated knowledge base does us a huge service in trying to counter self destructive behavior, this shoot yourself in the foot thingi. My way of dealing with that is via self awareness of the limits of rage, that behind the phenomenon of politics there is an attempt to manage pain, to create a world where the stress does not lead to the experience of frustration and rage. And what I say is the greater the stress the better if the limits of rage are reached and one falls head first into grief. It is grief that heals and grief is compassion for the self, where love replaces hate.

 

[Roger Wilco]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1473387113118904327

https://twitter.com/x/status/1473388502737903626

 

[ElFenix]

feels like ticking off the coal miners union in west virginia is a bad idea.

 

[dank69]

feels like ticking off the coal miners union in west virginia is a bad idea.

Manchin don't give a fuck. He is making his money while he can and will retire to a cushy job as a lobbyist.

 

[Ajay]

Manchin don't give a fuck. He is making his money while he can and will retire to a cushy job as a lobbyist.

I've been wondering about that. Since he supposedly isn't going to run again - he's gotta have something lined up that'll make him some major bank to eventually retire on.
Otherwise, why the heck would he be on Faux news??

 

[sportage]

Can't imagine the perks and promises currently being offered to old Manchin by the republicans. if only the repubs could get old Joe to leave the dems and join their side? Apparently repubs have come close because whatever the latest offer was, it made Manchin slap Biden right in the face.
Joe is only waiting to be asked to leave the party, or hoping to force Biden and senate democrat's to demand that Manchin leave, which they should. McConnell could seal the deal by promising Manchin clout within the republican party once Joe Manchin crosses over. Manchin loves the clout and the attention, the party doesn't matter. Manchin plays the game well.

I don't care if Manchin leaves, I don't even care if that means the republicans control the senate once again, I just want Manchin gone! It's better for democrats to rid themselves of the Joe Manchin's and Kyrsten Sinema's right now asap and increase democrat odds of winning back the senate by electing real true blue democrats come 2022.
As it stands now, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are only ensuring Joe Biden's agenda is sabotaged, and that republicans win big in 2022.

If Manchin and Sinema would only leave, then they would become the republicans problem. And wait until voters in the midterms realize they almost got BBB from the democrats, but will get absolutely nothing from the republicans. Not even a hope. And that includes the end of the so beloved $300 tax credit. If the people and the media thinks that Joe Biden is running a terrible administration, just put republicans back in charge for a few months. Then, just maybe the blame could be placed where it truly belongs, in the lap of the republicans. THERE are your true villains.