Bad news for Build Back Better legislation from Manchin:

[manly]

It's great that you ignored my apology about it being 1% of the national debt. The fact that you ignored that apology and chose to try and weaponize what I said, and throw it in my face shows what kind of person you are, and that you have no desire to even try to think past your own short slightness. Then go on to keep saying the same shit over and over trying to use the same equations and same numbers of today, thinking NOTHING would change. You think everyone would quit their jobs.. so their current income without the 1 Million would completely disappear, you think nobody would invest any of it, spend any of it, and it wouldn't generate any income taxes, that a million dollars to every adult wouldn't generate tax revenue outside of income, you think it would have zero effect on GDP, you think it would simply disappear in to thin air and have zero effect going forward on anything other than the debt side of things, and not generate income that would give it a return.. You have no clue what kind of return investing in people would actually bring.. This country and many of it's big businesses is built on doing just that. IN the end, you are just stuck in the "moment" and can't fathom that a net loss at the start would become a net positive in the years going forward. It's no different than investing in a business, that pays for itself after the initial investment.

As for the government doesn't have 255T laying around.. The government doesn't have any money laying around.. It hasn't had any real money since they got rid of the Gold Standard.. It's just paper printed up with nothing to back it. with much of it today just being 0's and 1' in the digital world.. Money is just a myth used to control citizens now days.. Not just in the US, but the world.

I don't blame you, Our society has never been built on investing in our citizens. It's always been built on knocking them down, controlling them, and keeping the majority poor. So you keep looking at everything the same status quo.

Edit: Also, you assume the 1 Million would be paid out in 1 lump sum.. Now realistically, if something like this was ever proposed, it should be paid over a set number of years, not all at once.

LOL I tried to "weaponize" what you said? This is a debate on a public forum, if you can't handle some choice words when your information is off by several orders of magnitude, find a friendlier hobby? It's funny you keep accusing others of not reading your posts when we certainly have, and find your arguments wholly unconvincing. You don't understand how direct stimulus is paid for by the federal government, and you hand-wave about these new "equations" that would change everything. You also spend a lot of time putting words in my mouth which I never said or implied, which further erodes any argument that you could have.

If I was trying to grow the U.S. economy for the long-term, the absolute last thing I would do is give everybody $1M. Anybody with a clue can already see it wouldn't turn out well (hint: most lottery winners go broke). I didn't even mention the most obvious side effect, which is that people would almost instantly quit all their low end jobs. With nobody willing to work at Walmart, the supermarket, or most service jobs for $15/hour, the economy would rapidly tank.

And way to move the goalpost. The "sportage economic plan" was specifically to give everybody $1M. If you want to debate something more like UBI, then you should be clear about it. You shouldn't pump up sportage's policy and now claim we're talking about a different proposal.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. You make these blanket accusations that I'm short-sided and don't understand a different paradigm, yet you offer zero evidence supporting your positions. Nor can you counter obvious defects with the plan. I might as well believe in the Laffer Curve. Ostensibly, this thread is about BBB ($2T over 10 years, not $255T lol) so I'll let other people stay on topic.

 

[cytg111]

I don't see why we should think that covid has had it's run. We're stepping into year three of a two week lockdown to "flatten the curve". We've trashed the economy, we've run up an astonishing debt, we're looking at long term inflation, we've developed a vaccine that doesn't work very well. It seems to me that the rona is here to stay. That sucks a lot, but it's just another of those grim, meat hook reality's we have to learn to live with.

Omicron + Vax actually works better than Delta + Vax. Sure you're more likely to catch Omicron even as vaxxed ... But vaxxed dont die man. Unvaxxed does though.
On top of that Omicron is so transmissible that its impossible to stop.
So in a few months, dying of covid is gonna be a choice. A choice between getting a shot and not getting a shot.

Inflation will pass, you know this right, channels are getting back to it as we speak.

Messaging on the debt is easy, Sanders got a plan for that.

 

[Grey_Beard]

I don't see why we should think that covid has had it's run. We're stepping into year three of a two week lockdown to "flatten the curve". We've trashed the economy, we've run up an astonishing debt, we're looking at long term inflation, we've developed a vaccine that doesn't work very well. It seems to me that the rona is here to stay. That sucks a lot, but it's just another of those grim, meat hook reality's we have to learn to live with.

So, the vaccine doesn’t work? Please further explain this. If it doesn’t work, why are the ICUs filled with 95%+ of unvaccinated people? Are you saying because the remaining small numbers show it is not?

You are more if a fool than I ever imagined. What is 100% effective other than your loyalist to the death cult Republicon Party?

 

[rommelrommel]

I wondered about THAT possibility. Giving every American adult 1 mill and having them all decide to retire, at least till their 1 mill ran out. But for some out there, giving Americans the BBB is about as illogical as handing out the 1 mill.

Whether it BBB or passing voter rights bills, the only goal for democrats between now and November 2022 must be the expanding of the house and senate. Not just holding control, not just holding the fort, but to expand like never before. The naysayers will say this can never happen in a midterm with the party in power, I think it can happen and happen against all odds. However, democrats must do the groundwork starting yesterday. If a majority of voters really truly want BBB, then democrats need to make them make it happen. The polls are on democrats side, BBB is on democrats side, now democrats just need to get voters on the democrats side to elect more democrats.
If this were republicans at play, they would hire the best PR firm, devise some flashy buzz words, and brainwash Americans into voting republican. This method works for republicans, it always has. It gave us Donald Trump.

Anyone that is saying that 1 million per person is equally ridiculous as BBB is just wrong. One is possible and largely makes sense and the other is both functionally impossible and makes no sense.

 

[MrSquished]

That is an impressive amount of lies in one short post.

It's pretty amazing what even the so called self professed moderate Republicans are capable of in regards to spouting nonsense.

It's just not a good group of people to form a country with.

 

[Greenman]

So, the vaccine doesn’t work? Please further explain this. If it doesn’t work, why are the ICUs filled with 95%+ of unvaccinated people? Are you saying because the remaining small numbers show it is not?

You are more if a fool than I ever imagined. What is 100% effective other than your loyalist to the death cult Republicon Party?

Correct the factual misrepresentations in your post and I'll be happy to respond.

 

[NWRMidnight]

LOL I tried to "weaponize" what you said? This is a debate on a public forum, if you can't handle some choice words when your information is off by several orders of magnitude, find a friendlier hobby? It's funny you keep accusing others of not reading your posts when we certainly have, and find your arguments wholly unconvincing. You don't understand how direct stimulus is paid for by the federal government, and you hand-wave about these new "equations" that would change everything. You also spend a lot of time putting words in my mouth which I never said or implied, which further erodes any argument that you could have.

If I was trying to grow the U.S. economy for the long-term, the absolute last thing I would do is give everybody $1M. Anybody with a clue can already see it wouldn't turn out well (hint: most lottery winners go broke). I didn't even mention the most obvious side effect, which is that people would almost instantly quit all their low end jobs. With nobody willing to work at Walmart, the supermarket, or most service jobs for $15/hour, the economy would rapidly tank.

And way to move the goalpost. The "sportage economic plan" was specifically to give everybody $1M. If you want to debate something more like UBI, then you should be clear about it. You shouldn't pump up sportage's policy and now claim we're talking about a different proposal.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. You make these blanket accusations that I'm short-sided and don't understand a different paradigm, yet you offer zero evidence supporting your positions. Nor can you counter obvious defects with the plan. I might as well believe in the Laffer Curve. Ostensibly, this thread is about BBB ($2T over 10 years, not $255T lol) so I'll let other people stay on topic.

okay, fuck you! I apologized for my mistake immediately after you pointed it out. You obviously ignored it and brought it up again afterwards, that is weaponizing it and shows you are a piece of shit and you are not debating in good faith. IF you where debating in good faith, you would have accepted my apology, but you didn't. You haven't even entertained anything I said, all you have said is in a bunch of words is "it can't work" without even stopping to look at all areas of long term effect (positive).

I already told you it would change EVERY aspect of the economy, our GDP, the very equations we use today would be obsolete, and there isn't enough time in the day to explain it to you because you have you mind closed off to change because you can't fathom anything different. As I said before, to you it's status quo for you because that is all you are able to grasp and understand..

Most people won't just up and quit their jobs, and those that do, most will be back to work in a short time because they will realize they need to work for their own mental health. But money wouldn't be the main motivator, but happiness. You keep acting like the money given to the citzens would just disappear and never be spent, or managed in a posative way, and claim the economy would tank. All you have is a straw man examples using lottery winners.. guess what there are many more who don't go broke, you just don't hear about them. I am guessing you are one who thinks our labor shortage is due to lazy people, and the federal money that they received. (Both have been proven false).

I never moved the goal posts, nowhere did I bring up UBI, nor was I even debating UBI. You are the one who took "give everyone a Million dollars" to mean a one time, lump sum payment, when that was never specified, and you are the one who has translated it to mean UBI if it isn't paid as a lump some, which it means no such thing. Yet another example that you are stuck on status qoe and can't think beyond anything different.

 

[Grey_Beard]

Correct the factual misrepresentations in your post and I'll be happy to respond.

Says the person who continues to spout misinformation. Nice try.

 

[JD50]

Correct the factual misrepresentations in your post and I'll be happy to respond.

You literally said we're on year 3 of being locked down (FALSE) and the vaccine doesn't work very well (FALSE) and you're demanding other people "correct the factual misrepresentations"? Lol what a fucking clown.

 

[manly]

okay, fuck you! I apologized for my mistake immediately after you pointed it out. You obviously ignored it and brought it up again afterwards, that is weaponizing it and shows you are a piece of shit and you are not debating in good faith. IF you where debating in good faith, you would have accepted my apology, but you didn't. You haven't even entertained anything I said, all you have said is in a bunch of words is "it can't work" without even stopping to look at all areas of long term effect (positive).

I already told you it would change EVERY aspect of the economy, our GDP, the very equations we use today would be obsolete, and there isn't enough time in the day to explain it to you because you have you mind closed off to change because you can't fathom anything different. As I said before, to you it's status quo for you because that is all you are able to grasp and understand..

Most people won't just up and quit their jobs, and those that do, most will be back to work in a short time because they will realize they need to work for their own mental health. But money wouldn't be the main motivator, but happiness. You keep acting like the money given to the citzens would just disappear and never be spent, or managed in a posative way, and claim the economy would tank. All you have is a straw man examples using lottery winners.. guess what there are many more who don't go broke, you just don't hear about them. I am guessing you are one who thinks our labor shortage is due to lazy people, and the federal money that they received. (Both have been proven false).

I never moved the goal posts, nowhere did I bring up UBI, nor was I even debating UBI. You are the one who took "give everyone a Million dollars" to mean a one time, lump sum payment, when that was never specified, and you are the one who has translated it to mean UBI if it isn't paid as a lump some, which it means no such thing. Yet another example that you are stuck on status qoe and can't think beyond anything different.

You immediately drop a FY and I'm the one not debating in good faith? I'm done arguing about a dumb plan, and you can believe whatever you want to believe. Just stop projecting and putting words in my mouth. You clearly don't understand logic and reasoning, but are quick to claim others can't see the light of the new equations. We just have to take your word for it, esteemed economist. Lol

At least you provided comedic relief for some of us by championing the sportage economic plan. You're right that I'm "stuck" on thinking you're an idiot, because the sum of your posts in this thread tell me so.

 

[NWRMidnight]

You immediately drop a FY and I'm the one not debating in good faith? I'm done arguing about a dumb plan, and you can believe whatever you want to believe. Just stop projecting and putting words in my mouth. You clearly don't understand logic and reasoning, but are quick to claim others can't see the light of the new equations. We just have to take your word for it, esteemed economist. Lol

At least you provided comedic relief for some of us by championing the sportage economic plan. You're right that I'm "stuck" on thinking you're an idiot, because the sum of your posts in this thread tell me so.

HUH? I immediately dropped a FY, after conversing with you for the last 5 days? 5 days sure the hell isn't immediately. You don't even understand why I dropped the FY, I even spelled it out for you.. so yeah, you are not debating in good faith at all and now you are straight up lying.

 

[Roger Wilco]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1481995583158202378

 

[thilanliyan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1481995583158202378

Why the heck is he so against the child tax credit?! The people in his state should let him know he needs to stop being an idiot, or they'll vote his butt out.

 

[Fenixgoon]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1481995583158202378

Is he really going to bend over for that one issue? And won't sinema fuck things over even if Manchin *is* satisfied?

Edit: Hilariously, republicans expanded CTC to higher income earners in the TCJA, so paring it back shouldn't be an issue for anyone (except repubs)

 

[K1052]

Is he really going to bend over for that one issue? And won't sinema fuck things over even if Manchin *is* satisfied?

Edit: Hilariously, republicans expanded CTC to higher income earners in the TCJA, so paring it back shouldn't be an issue for anyone (except repubs)

His chief opposition seems to center around the CTC so yeah. He seems fine with a top line figure in the 1.7-1.8 range so if the expanded CTC is trimmed boost other areas. The climate, healthcare, and housing components of the bill are really important so let's just get it done. Sinema's complaints were on the revenue side which I think had been finally resolved.

 

[Bitek]

His chief opposition seems to center around the CTC so yeah. He seems fine with a top line figure in the 1.7-1.8 range so if the expanded CTC is trimmed boost other areas. The climate, healthcare, and housing components of the bill are really important so let's just get it done. Sinema's complaints were on the revenue side which I think had been finally resolved.

Yup, it's bullshit he won't play ball on this, and I'll be upset if the SALT provisions don't get fixed, but the missing on the climate package would be a disaster that will define Bidens presidency. Just get it done.

 

[Bitek]

Is he really going to bend over for that one issue? And won't sinema fuck things over even if Manchin *is* satisfied?

Edit: Hilariously, republicans expanded CTC to higher income earners in the TCJA, so paring it back shouldn't be an issue for anyone (except repubs)

But where am I going to get all my drug money from? My mutual funds? Sell one of the horses?

 

[SMOGZINN]

His chief opposition seems to center around the CTC so yeah. He seems fine with a top line figure in the 1.7-1.8 range so if the expanded CTC is trimmed boost other areas. The climate, healthcare, and housing components of the bill are really important so let's just get it done. Sinema's complaints were on the revenue side which I think had been finally resolved.

You are kidding right? This is what, the 5 or 6th thing they have given him and he always find something else to object to. He has no intention of voting for this bill no matter what is in it. He is opposed to the Democratic party's platform, and basically said so in his December 19th letter about this bill.

 

[manly]

Why the heck is he so against the child tax credit?! The people in his state should let him know he needs to stop being an idiot, or they'll vote his butt out.

The CTC is very expensive relative to everything else. If I'm not mistaken, the Democrats latest offer to Manchin includes just 1 year of CTC to keep the headline cost of the bill down to $1.8T. Manchin told Chuck Schumer last summer that he's only willing to accept up to a $1.5T bill, but Biden talked him into raising that figure. But Manchin wants an honest bill, which is hard to do if you want to include the costly CTC. Relative to what Manchin claims he'll support, the CBO scoring for the BBB is not something he's willing to support.

I don't think Manchin is a hard no, but he wants a small bill compared to what the rest of the Democrats want to pass. People have to remember Manchin is de facto the most powerful Senator, so Democrats have no choice but to deal with him. His special status goes away in a few months. If the BBB isn't passed before the election cycle kicks in, Biden's agenda is basically toast and almost assuredly remains that way with a Republican takeover of Congress.

 

[Roger Wilco]

The circus continues.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1484213612516462600

 

[K1052]

The circus continues.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1484213612516462600

I'm beginning to think they literally mean they just need to rename it lol.

Anyway he also launched into talking about things he wants that are definately major components of BBB. So the Manchining continues.

 

[pauldun170]

I'm beginning to think they literally mean they just need to rename it lol.

Anyway he also launched into talking about things he wants that are definately major components of BBB. So the Manchining continues.

What I believe he is saying is that no matter what they come up with, he is going to block it as instructed.
It's going to keep going around and around until election day.
That's the deal he made with McConnel because "bipartisanship" and stuff.

 

[pauldun170]

Manchin on any version of BBB

Schumer trying to talk to negotiate

 

[K1052]

What I believe he is saying is that no matter what they come up with, he is going to block it as instructed.
It's going to keep going around and around until election day.
That's the deal he made with McConnel because "bipartisanship" and stuff.

Manchin is a pain in the ass who likes attention. That he has more in common culturally with the GOP but not policy wise has always been the case hence his identity as a "conservative Democrat" (who we used to have more of). Don't see conspiracy where it's just mostly personality.

 

[pauldun170]

Manchin is a pain in the ass who likes attention. That he has more in common culturally with the GOP but not policy wise has always been the case hence his identity as a "conservative Democrat" (who we used to have more of). Don't see conspiracy where it's just mostly personality.

My version is more fun.