So you mean they don't ridicule Christianity and Judaism on a daily basis? You must be living in some other universe then.
I don't think that a society can exist if all religous/cultural laws/taboos are to be upheld.
Muslims don't want Mo caricatured.
Some Hindus/Buddhists/Jains etc. don't eat meat.
Homosexuals don't like offensive religious scriptures.
The list just goes on and on.
Muslims don't want Mo caricatured.
Some Hindus/Buddhists/Jains etc. don't eat meat.
Homosexuals don't like offensive religious scriptures.
The list just goes on and on.
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class. 
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class.
Of course freedom of speech has its limits, but it shouldn't be limited by blasphemy IMO.
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class.
Of course freedom of speech has its limits, but it shouldn't be limited by blasphemy IMO.
Instead of a threatening violence why don't they all just move to Iraq?? I hear it's nice there this time of year. I'm sure if they looked around there they could find all the violence and injustice they need to keep them busy.
5150Joker
Diamond Member
Simple question is: If a newspaper in Europe printed a caricature of a David wearing a kippah laced with dollar bills on a cloud telling Jews they must bulldoze 100 Palestinian homes each to get into heaven, would Jews have been in an uproar over it and would condemnations followed swiftly with accusations of anti-semitism? Of course it would have. When it comes to Muslims there's a huge double standard.
I have no doubt that many in Europe despise Muslims. I've posted many threads regarding it as well as other minorities in Europe. I think that the far-right have a lot to gain out of this situation.
However, if people on this forum started claiming that people cannot caricature David and say there should be laws against it, I think that many of the same people would be carrying the same message - freedom of speech is not limited by blasphemy.
Many European countries have laws about hate speech which may include religions. I don't agree with them, but I would still view it as a different situation. You may not be able to say "Muslims are scum" or "Buddhists are evil" but that is different than drawing a picture of Mohammed or Buddha.
Apparently the word the imams were spreading was that the cartoons depicted Mohammed "sodomizing a dog" "acting as a pedophile" and other acts. Nothing published by the paper.
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class.
Of course freedom of speech has its limits, but it shouldn't be limited by blasphemy IMO.
Try to understand the situation. Blasphemy by definition is desecration of something sacred, holy. Even though the vast majority of the western world may not (and does not) believe that Mohammed is sacred or deserves the respect that his followers pay him, in the new state of the world (post 9/11, post Iraq War, post you-know-what-I-am-talking-about) it is highly inconsiderate and in fact, utterly stupid to do something like this, i.e. publish these cartoons. I refuse to believe that the cartoonist, editors and all involved hadn't thought of this. If they truly had not, they need to hand over their jobs to professionals with a tad more common sense and gumption.
The prevailing opinion among my Moslem classmates is that the reason this is perceived so seriously by the Moslem world is mainly because a non-Moslem did it and understandably so. Well, one can argue that those Moslems do it all the time in their countries. Actually, I have yet to come across a cartoon from the Moselm world that depicts Jesus or Moses or David in a disdainful manner (actually this might never happen given that they respect these prophets much more than the non-Moslem faithful in the western world!). I have although seen all kinds of political cartoons making fun of Bush, Blair, Sharon etc. but that's a different matter. We westerners don't hold them nearly as sacred!
Think of it this way, if we, as humans, don't respect each others' most sacred beliefs, how can there be peace in the world? Oh, but the Moslem terrorists don't either, right? Well, these cartoons certainly weren't exclusively meant for the terrrrarists! What makes us (the western world) any better?
No, I don't think this was a case of "let the truth be told" or "nothing is beyong satire". Freedom of speech is one thing, stupidity, borne out of ignorance (or deliberate incitement?) is another. Hope I have cleared up the situation a little.
5150Joker
Diamond Member
Jews wouldn't need to do anything, the governments and other newspapers would have condemned it on their own. Or if that didn't work I'm sure the Jewish lobby groups and organizations like JDL would have a say about it.
5150Joker
Diamond Member
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class.
Of course freedom of speech has its limits, but it shouldn't be limited by blasphemy IMO.
Try to understand the situation. Blasphemy by definition is desecration of something sacred, holy. Even though the vast majority of the western world may not (and does not) believe that Mohammed is sacred or deserves the respect that his followers pay him, in the new state of the world (post 9/11, post Iraq War, post you-know-what-I-am-talking-about) it is highly inconsiderate and in fact, utterly stupid to do something like this, i.e. publish these cartoons. I refuse to believe that the cartoonist, editors and all involved hadn't thought of this. If they truly had not, they need to hand over their jobs to professionals with a tad more common sense and gumption.
The prevailing opinion among my Moslem classmates is that the reason this is perceived so seriously by the Moslem world is mainly because a non-Moslem did it and understandably so. Well, one can argue that those Moslems do it all the time in their countries. Actually, I have yet to come across a cartoon from the Moselm world that depicts Jesus or Moses or David in a disdainful manner (actually this might never happen given that they respect these prophets much more than the non-Moslem faithful in the western world!). I have although seen all kinds of political cartoons making fun of Bush, Blair, Sharon etc. but that's a different matter. We westerners don't hold them nearly as sacred!
Think of it this way, if we, as humans, don't respect each others' most sacred beliefs, how can there be peace in the world? Oh, but the Moslem terrorists don't either, right? Well, these cartoons certainly weren't exclusively meant for the terrrrarists! What makes us (the western world) any better?
No, I don't think this was a case of "let the truth be told" or "nothing is beyong satire". Freedom of speech is one thing, stupidity, borne out of ignorance (or deliberate incitement?) is another. Hope I have cleared up the situation a little.
QFT.
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class.
Of course freedom of speech has its limits, but it shouldn't be limited by blasphemy IMO.
Try to understand the situation. Blasphemy by definition is desecration of something sacred, holy. Even though the vast majority of the western world may not (and does not) believe that Mohammed is sacred or deserves the respect that his followers pay him, in the new state of the world (post 9/11, post Iraq War, post you-know-what-I-am-talking-about) it is highly inconsiderate and in fact, utterly stupid to do something like this, i.e. publish these cartoons. I refuse to believe that the cartoonist, editors and all involved hadn't thought of this. If they truly had not, they need to hand over their jobs to professionals with a tad more common sense and gumption.
Unfortunately we all hold things sacred or holy that is violated by others. The only way that our sacred beliefs will not be desecrated would be if we had a homogeneous society.
The prevailing opinion among my Moslem classmates is that the reason this is perceived so seriously by the Moslem world is mainly because a non-Moslem did it and understandably so. Well, one can argue that those Moslems do it all the time in their countries. Actually, I have yet to come across a cartoon from the Moselm world that depicts Jesus or Moses or David in a disdainful manner (actually this might never happen given that they respect these prophets much more than the non-Moslem faithful in the western world!). I have although seen all kinds of political cartoons making fun of Bush, Blair, Sharon etc. but that's a different matter. We westerners don't hold them nearly as sacred!
The US flag is sacred to many, yet it is burned all the time in the Muslim world as well as even within the US.
We cannot respect everyone's sacred beliefs. Don't eat any meat. Don't eat beef. Rewrite religious scripture that is offensive to homosexuals.
It is current Islamic tradition to not depict Mohammed just like it is other religious traditions to not eat beef or not eat meat, or not eat certain foods on certain days, etc.
I hope that I have made my positions clear as well.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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of course its fine. these muslims pretend that everyone else should also have to follow islamic law. so superior is their ideology in their minds. uppity infidels should be put in their place. the muslims have confused the quiet fear of the thats been around for a long time that results in self censorship with actual respect.
So you're saying there's never been a satirical carricature of any black or minorities in the US? Because it's 'off limit'?
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
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and really stop trying to glom it onto the race issue. religion is ideology, it isn't race. nazi's shouldn't be able to hide behind their ideology of hate by claiming you are fomenting hates against whites by making a cartoon poking fun at their stupid ideas.
Sorry to say, but I think you have either missed the point completely or are just reasserting your preconceived views in a different way.
We can have peace without being homogenous: respect each others' differences and sacred beliefs. The human race has survived thus far precisely because of this reason. In fact, one only needs to search as far back as Moslem Spain for an awe-inspiring example of this realization. You are very wrong in this way of thinking. History confutes you on this point fair and square, over and over again.
The only way our sacred beliefs will not be desecrated is if we lead by example and exercise patience along the way.
The U.S. flag is a political symbol. In fact, I am so disgusted by the Iraq War that I don't feel a thing when I see it burned around the world. Blame George W. Bush and co. for this. In fact, I fear that the Canadian flag will soon join its counterpart now that Mr. Harper can have his way.
In fact, an extreme right-wing group in Denmark plans to burn copies of the Koran in a march soon. See where all this kind of thinking leads the masses?
I think that you missed my point completely.
My beliefs counter yours. Yours counters your neighbors. We cannot respect everyone's beliefs. It's impossible. You need to realize that the real world is not like Sesame Street.
Like I said before, the beliefs of homosexuals counter the beliefs of conservative religious people. Eating meat offends the sacred beliefs of many people. The list just goes on and on.
The US flag is indeed a political symbol just like the cross is a religious symbol. Religion is nothing but a system of beliefs, just like anything else. People are offended when the flag is burned just like people are offended if the Koran was burned.
Ultimately, the European far-right is going to be the biggest "winners" with this situation.
Again, freedom of speech is obviously limited, but it should not be limited by religious blasphemy. I think I made my reasons clear and I hope that you understand.
No I am only wondering what will the people here say when let's say the largest Newspaper in the US publish something that blacks universally feel is demeaning to them as a group.
Will people here say that's still protected by freedom of speech? If not, I think there is double standard.
To you religion maybe is just an ideology. But to many other people, it is a way of life. And similar to the race issue in the US, the Muslim in every part of the world is facing the same bias and discrimination, justifeid or not. And they often face the same economic struggle that some race in the US face too.
Racism is rampant in the Muslim world, especially the Middle East. I doubt Arab Muslims face much discrimination in their own countries, the imported labor does - they're often enslaved.
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Having learned a lot about the fundamentals of Islam in the last few weeks, I for one, would not have published these cartoons as an editor. EVERYTHING has limits. Freedom of speech is no exception. You all need to join me in my Islam 101 class.
Exactly, yeah we have freedom of speech but you still cannot yell "FIRE" in a public place.
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