ATI misrepresents nVidia AA quality in Crossfire demo

[Gstanfor]

Not really. They merely used less benchmarks thats all. At least they used a current benchmark.

Though I have to say I *personally* find Doom3 results on any lowend hardware to be academic at best.

I don't think this nVidia presentation compares in any way shape or form with recent ATi PR literature (though IMO it could have been toned down a bit and still delivered the desired message).

EDIT: like the last poster said, what have the lowend cards got to do with the highend cards and how they were presented?

 

[xtknight]

Omitting benchmarks is different than inserting blatantly wrong images...the important thing to realize is that the benchmarks that WERE there were the truth. If somebody doesn't tell you the whole story, they aren't lying about anything. They just didn't tell you the rest. That's marketing, a part of every company, including nVidia as seen on that slide. But this time ATI took it a step further...

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Omitting benchmarks is different than inserting blatantly wrong images...the important thing to realize is that the benchmarks that WERE there were the truth. If somebody doesn't tell you the whole story, they aren't lying about anything. They just didn't tell you the rest. That's marketing, a part of every company, including nVidia as seen on that slide...

my point in less words, thanks

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Dave is very level headed. If you cant post there, Id say its for a good reason.

In any event... this topic was on its way out, its done for me.

edit for spelling. My dang A key doesnt work very often!!!!!

The people at nVNews are very level headed, does the fact that you've been permanently banned from there mean "its for good reason", Ackmed?

The people at Sharky are level headed, and warned me a couple times to stop calling people bragging about their number of RMAs "scum" and "thieves", but I persisted and was banned there. For me, the ethics of the point outweighed the value of my ability to post there.

Point A: You don't know the circumstances of his ban, so you can't comment.

Point B:Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

He was not level headed when he banned me. I rejoined later, with a new name, but havent posted in a year. Have only been there 4-5 times since. I broke no rules, I was just a "ATi defender"", so he called me. I guess the FX sucking so badly, was just too much for him. So you can take your own advice, since you dont know the circumstances.

Yes most people at B3B favor ATi, I personally have not seen anyone banned who wasnt resorting to flaming and name calling however.

If I was to post what was on my mind at Hard, I would get banned for sure. It REALLY annoys me that I cant post in the Newegg threads int he hotdeals section, with a lower price from somewhere else. Just because they sponsor Hard, you cant say anything bad about newegg. And that ticks me off.

But since we are now talking about misleading. What about NV's famous pics of Farcry, with SM3? They compared it to 1.1, which is idiotic. Especially since they didnt tell that it was 1.1. Almsot everyone assumed it was 3 vs. 2, which wasnt the case. They did it on purpose, to try and make people believe how much better SM3 was.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
You are right. I hadn't seen that presentation. However the information in it didn't look too misleading to me at least on the surface (don't really follow the low-end that closely).

Perhaps since you've been here as long as me, you will remember Intel engineers on these forums trying to convince people not to purchase Athlon cpu's and the stand I took aginst them?

I don't particuarly care who the companies in question are - if I find a company trying to mislead the public I'll roast them, be they VIA Intel, ATi XGi or whoever.

I believe you 100%. Right down to the nVidia quote in your sig.

No fanboi here. Move along.

exec excuse.cfg

Whats wrong with that quote? Its true.

I'm going to laugh my ass off when somone pops a ALI and [/b]ATI[/b] based motherboard into their rig to run crossfire.
If ALI is better than ATI.... OMFG I do NOT want to see the wholly ATI running (if it does)!

Just because he knows the Nforces are the only thing out there that comes close (or does) parallel Intel chipsets, doesnt mean hes some ignorant fanboy.
And someone who knows that the Geforce6 was a better setup and card than the X800s isnt a fanboy either.
I think 9/10 unbiased people would come to the conclusion that meeting DirectX standards, having exceptional OGL support and performance, SLI capability, good Linux support, extra features like EXR HDR/soft shadows, had the lineup more available to consumers, and having the industrys best drivers in quality and performance would make the GF6 the lineup to beat.
Even with the pumped up, too little too late X850XT PE you cant tell the difference between an Ultra without benching.
Game over ATI. Better luck next time. :thumbsup:

Oh wait, you dropped every thing you've ever made before the R300 for Longhorn.. yeah I want ATI hardware (esp an ATI/ALI MOTHERBOARD BABY) in my company computers... love that support.

My first accelerator was a Nvidia Edge3D, I've been around and seen both ATI/NV operate.. I'll take Nvidia due to the reasons outlined in this post.

Teleport me back to the buggy 9700 release and I'd take that, I'd take a 9800 Pro (oops I had one) too.. beyond those guys I'll pass on ATI.. and those days are long over now.
ATI had a golden age sucker punch thanks to ArtX but its long over.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Dave is very level headed. If you cant post there, Id say its for a good reason.

In any event... this topic was on its way out, its done for me.

edit for spelling. My dang A key doesnt work very often!!!!!

The people at nVNews are very level headed, does the fact that you've been permanently banned from there mean "its for good reason", Ackmed?

The people at Sharky are level headed, and warned me a couple times to stop calling people bragging about their number of RMAs "scum" and "thieves", but I persisted and was banned there. For me, the ethics of the point outweighed the value of my ability to post there.

Point A: You don't know the circumstances of his ban, so you can't comment.

Point B:Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

He was not level headed when he banned me. I rejoined later, with a new name, but havent posted in a year. Have only been there 4-5 times since. I broke no rules, I was just a "ATi defender"", so he called me. I guess the FX sucking so badly, was just too much for him. So you can take your own advice, since you dont know the circumstances.

Yes most people at B3B favor ATi, I personally have not seen anyone banned who wasnt resorting to flaming and name calling however.

If I was to post what was on my mind at Hard, I would get banned for sure. It REALLY annoys me that I cant post in the Newegg threads int he hotdeals section, with a lower price from somewhere else. Just because they sponsor Hard, you cant say anything bad about newegg. And that ticks me off.

But since we are now talking about misleading. What about NV's famous pics of Farcry, with SM3? They compared it to 1.1, which is idiotic. Especially since they didnt tell that it was 1.1. Almsot everyone assumed it was 3 vs. 2, which wasnt the case. They did it on purpose, to try and make people believe how much better SM3 was.

Yeah well I was banned from NVNews believe it or not. And guess what for?
Trying to inform them about the ATI trylinear hacks!!! Before it was front page news on the major sites.

I'll have to dig up my post, they thought I was spreading misinformation. They were prob trying to look like they are fair or something, over compensating for their OWN bias.. like I was some extremist when it was just the TRUTH.

I never visit NVNews, I think those guys are fking morons. They wouldnt even listen or look at the information presented.. then later they posted it after everyone else wrote an article on it!

I emailed their editor/webmaster and asked if i could get unbanned considering I was RIGHT and telling the truth.. but of course, like arrogant assfvcks, they ignored me.

NV News is a joke. I have never been banned from Rage3D and gotten much better help and enjoyed the community much more, personally.
Its not really about ATI/NV.. I just think NVNews consists of a bunch of morons.

So I dont think your story is out of line ackie. I can imagine.

 

[fstime]

housecat is PMSing again it seems.

 

[Ackmed]

Actually, I think hes spot on about NV news. And we hardly agree. They are by far the worst video card forum I have ever visited. I understand they are a NV forum, and that they are bias, but banning anyone because they dont salute NV at every turn is sad. But thats just my opinion.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
housecat is PMSing again it seems.

Yep. Right on your face bouzouki.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: housecat
I never visit NVNews, I think those guys are fking morons.

Originally posted by: housecat
I emailed their editor/webmaster and asked if i could get unbanned considering I was RIGHT and telling the truth.. but of course, like arrogant assfvcks, they ignored me.

Originally posted by: housecat
NV News is a joke.

Originally posted by: housecat
I just think NVNews consists of a bunch of morons.

Wow, housecat. For the life of me, I just CAN'T imagine why they first banned you and now totally ignore you.

 

[imported_Noob]

Just curious how does 8xAA perform? I thought 6xAA already took a big enough performance hit. If anybody has any benchmarks links can you show them. Whenever I search on good for 6800 8xAA benchmarks or rewording it to AA 8x I get 4xAA and 8xAF instead.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Not really. They merely used less benchmarks thats all. At least they used a current benchmark.

Though I have to say I *personally* find Doom3 results on any lowend hardware to be academic at best.

I don't think this nVidia presentation compares in any way shape or form with recent ATi PR literature (though IMO it could have been toned down a bit and still delivered the desired message).

EDIT: like the last poster said, what have the lowend cards got to do with the highend cards and how they were presented?

I'm just saying that both companies do it. It's not just one or the other that's guilty of presenting misleading information. That's why I try to ignore most of what comes out of PR departments.

If the ATI screenshots in question were actually doctored by somebody within ATI, then I think whoever authorized it should have his head handed to him. Doctoring images is WAY over the line of acceptable behavior.

That's why I find it hard to believe that it's true. It's not as if ATI is struggling so badly that they need to make up things about Nvidia in order to survive financially.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: Creig
Wow, housecat. For the life of me, I just CAN'T imagine why they first banned you and now totally ignore you.

I dont know Creig, no one asked you. Always sticking your nose in everywhere and never know when to shut your dumb fkin mouth, just like in the other thread. :thumbsup:
Hope the 9500 is workin well for ya. Cheers buddy!

I notice you took the "logic and fanboy dont mix" quote out of your sig, about time you figured out it applied to you better than anyone.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Actually, I think hes spot on about NV news. And we hardly agree. They are by far the worst video card forum I have ever visited. I understand they are a NV forum, and that they are bias, but banning anyone because they dont salute NV at every turn is sad. But thats just my opinion.

Its just a crappy place altogether. Of all the forums I post at (OCP,beyond,AT ect) its by far the worst. I wont even visit the site due to that experience. I dont think anyone should have to salute Nvidia even at NVNews.. that makes it a crappy forum.
I dont know if its worse than the official NV forums, their mod is a moron too.
They dont even want legitimate problems to be revealed and they lie about things that are not fixed. But its a company site, and should be expected to be something reminiscent of 1930s Nazi bootstomping.. and it is. Its just sad becuase it doesnt HAVE to be THAT bad.

I've been posting at rage3d since '01 and I find that community to be great.. the guys are levelheaded and even when people bash ATI I see a mature reaction from the mods and people.
Kind of funny tho, when I would go in there with problems.. I wonder where all the ATI engineers were? They are at Beyond3D yanking off with DaveB but legitimate problems and where'd ja go??!?!?!?!?!!?

Same thing applies to NV and the widescreen issues, took FOREVER to get that addressed. I had to contact multiple sites, muliple times to get that publicized and the hardware sites were reluctant because they didnt want to deal with Nvidia.

If you asked a dingleberry like Creig he'd say I'm a fanboy.. I have to be, I dont praise ATI when it does not apply. But I'm really best of breed and theres no doubt about that if you look at my hardware choices.. even in my rig I have now.

So we have NVNews who doesnt tolerate any anti-NV talk, hence your ban.
And we have Creig who dirtys his diapers when anyone says anything bad about ATI.
Two of the same, I must say.

From my experience at a supposedly biased site like Rage3D, they are actually there to talk, fix problems and learn. :thumbsup:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Actually, I think hes spot on about NV news. And we hardly agree. They are by far the worst video card forum I have ever visited. I understand they are a NV forum, and that they are bias, but banning anyone because they dont salute NV at every turn is sad. But thats just my opinion.

NO!
You don't like the site that banned you?!??! Who'd have guessed?

LOL

nVNews is not bad, they state up front that they are biased towards nVidia, so you know that going in. Their vendor relations are with nVidia, Rage and B3ds are with ATI. What's the difference?

 

[ronnn]

Only diff I can see is Dave Bauman sounds like he knows his stuff. Wow this is as good as shader days is xfire really worth this attention? :beer:

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: housecat

Originally posted by: Creig
Wow, housecat. For the life of me, I just CAN'T imagine why they first banned you and now totally ignore you.

I dont know Creig, no one asked you. Always sticking your nose in everywhere and never know when to shut your dumb fkin mouth, just like in the other thread. :thumbsup:
Hope the 9500 is workin well for ya. Cheers buddy!

I notice you took the "logic and fanboy dont mix" quote out of your sig, about time you figured out it applied to you better than anyone.

Yeah, I figured this new sig applied to you better, that's why I changed it.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Actually, I think hes spot on about NV news. And we hardly agree. They are by far the worst video card forum I have ever visited. I understand they are a NV forum, and that they are bias, but banning anyone because they dont salute NV at every turn is sad. But thats just my opinion.

NO!
You don't like the site that banned you?!??! Who'd have guessed?

LOL

nVNews is not bad, they state up front that they are biased towards nVidia, so you know that going in. Their vendor relations are with nVidia, Rage and B3ds are with ATI. What's the difference?

I didnt like it before I got banned. I averaged less than half a post per day. Because I rarely went to it.

I didnt know what it was like going in. I got a link to it from another forums. I clicked it, thought it was ok, then joined. Posted to a show your PC post.

Feel free to search for my name, and see why I got banned. Should be about a year ago or so. You can see, I did not break a single rule. I didnt name call, flame anyone, just didnt bend over like I was supposed to.

The difference is, posting anti-ATi stuff at Rage3d will not get you banned. You have to be breaking rules, and multiple times to get banned. Just posting something negative wont get you banned, like it would at NV news. There are a lot of people who have been banned from there, for next to nothing. But hey, hes the mod, I guess its his forum, and he can run it however he wants. I dont have a problem with that. To me, it just reflects poorly on his website, and his modding abilities.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Noob
Just curious how does 8xAA perform? I thought 6xAA already took a big enough performance hit. If anybody has any benchmarks links can you show them. Whenever I search on good for 6800 8xAA benchmarks or rewording it to AA 8x I get 4xAA and 8xAF instead.

Actually I played Half Life 2 at 1280x960 with 6XAA and 16XAF enabled in the game... everything else set to max... optimizations turned off in the drivers... and it was completely playable on my 6800GT @ 400/1050 with my 2.6 GHz A64.

BTW... I know nVidia cards don't have a "6X" AA setting... would it just default back to 4X, or is it the equivalent of 8X for nVidia cards and 6X for ATI cards?

 

[BFG10K]

Besides, nVidia stated their objections to 3dmark03

It's pretty silly to object and then go through all that effort to get better scores. Quite the facade really.

I don't see how anyone can claim nVidia didn't say they weren't going to cheat in that particular case.

Uh, when did nVidia ever admit they cheated? The closest they came was producing some PR rubbish for optimization guidelines, one of which was ironically "must do more than just accelerate a benchmark". When they realized this they promptly issued the addendum "unless it's just a benchmark to begin with", or some-such nonsense. It's so pathetic it's almost child-like.

nVidia's 3DMark fiasco is a clear and blatant cheating venture; even if you put together all of ATi's alleged cheats and say they are cheats they still can't compare to what nVidia did in 3DMark alone. And that's ignoring the other cases like changing the filtering mode when they detected UT2003.exe was running.

I then asked him to please explain ATi's Doom3 replacement shader.

It can be disabled with CCC.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

I then asked him to please explain ATi's Doom3 replacement shader.

It can be disabled with CCC.

That's not the point BFG10K.

Dave was saying any sort of shader replacement under any circumstances was unacceptable behaviour (the same song ATi publically sang while implying (and encouraging the fanboys to say) that nVidia drivers replace game shaders). I warned him his argument was flawed in a locked thread, he ignored me and brought it up again in a precision thread, so I pointed out ATi's replacement shader - the only game replacement shader anyone has been able to prove exists so far - and it was authored by ATi, not nVidia.

Another fact concerning shaders and ATi is that they wrote the Half-Life 2 shaders, not Valve. Little wonder "lard-arse" Newell was unimpressed with nV35! I'm willing to bet that the shaders in 3DMark03 were written by ATi too.

 

[housecat]

Actually, I prefer

Gabe "Fats" Newell

coined it long ago on firingsquad forums.

 

[ronnn]

Are you guys mad at gabe for producing a great game that runs well on a wide variety of cards?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Are you guys mad at gabe for producing a great game that runs well on a wide variety of cards?

HL2 runs like ass for the image quality provided, of course this is coming from someone who hasnt seen the 10-15% boost from a similar ATi card. I dont know anyone with an X800/X850. (lots of 9800s)

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Are you guys mad at gabe for producing a great game that runs well on a wide variety of cards?

Funny how HL2 runs slower on nV40 than it does ATi cards. Even runnier how it suddenly runs faster if you use 3d-Analyser to force an ATi ID on nVidia cards... Couldn't be something to do with the shaders ATi wrote could it now? :shocked: :roll: :thumbsdown:

Though I guess I should not be too shocked. After all fat boy Gabe did mention strange driver happenings at his little "shady day" conference - apparently he just mixed up which company was doing the monkey business...