ATI misrepresents nVidia AA quality in Crossfire demo

[speedstream5621]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: speedstream5621

Originally posted by: g3pro
I'm just glad that more and more people see the crap that ATi puts out. They got beaten pretty bad with the 6-series, so the best counter they have is to cheat? Where did I hear this before? * cough * ATi shader day * cough *

For shame.

You haven't been around long have you? Both ATI and Nvidia do things like this.

ATI has done less, however-and when they do make a mistake, they acknowledge it immediately. In this case, it is unreasonable to say with 100% certainty that this was intentional...the same cannot be said for driver release upon driver release from Nvidia. The 6000 series is neck and neck with the X800 series too---not sure what you're talking about there.

Expect more of this from BOTH companies.

I've been here longer than you, post wise and time wise.

nVidia have done nothing so far to put down ATi products, and have been well behaved since the NV30 dramas.

All the crap that has been flung since then in the video card world has been crap of ATi's making.

Just to repeat again, it was ATi, not nVidia caught lying about the competitions products (something they are extremely "talented" at). So don't say both when it is only one.

Edit: It seems rather ironic that nVidia started cleaning up their PR act and ATi's started worsening right around the time that Richard Huddy left nVidia to join ATi...

I wasn't talking about how long you've been here on the forum...because that is irrelevant. I'm sure there are people here who have been members for ten years...and they're still morons when it comes to computers.

And again, you have taken my statement about both companies doing shady things out of context. The point is that both companies do things that are not "legit." Not that ATI misrepresented Nvidia's IQ and Nvidia has never done that.

 

[fierydemise]

There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

I wonder how many would be saying this if nVidia had done it?

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: fierydemise
There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

I wonder how many would be saying this if nVidia had done it?

The better question is how many would defend nVidia if this happened?

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

Thank you. Thing is its the ones wearing the maple leaf thongs that need to understand this. If NV had done it, it'd be some attrocity.
ATI's fanboys always were a bunch of whiney hypocrites, whether its an excuse as to why they are underperforming, why their drivers suck, or why their hardware isnt up to DX standard like today.
Bah, just buy the best hardware and be done with it. HEEEELLLLLLOOOOOOO Geforce6 and SLI!

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: housecat

Originally posted by: fierydemise
There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

Thank you. Thing is its the ones wearing the maple leaf thongs that need to understand this. If NV had done it, it'd be some attrocity.
ATI's fanboys always were a bunch of whiney hypocrites, whether its an excuse as to why they are underperforming, why their drivers suck, or why their hardware isnt up to DX standard like today.
Bah, just buy the best hardware and be done with it. HEEEELLLLLLOOOOOOO Geforce6 and SLI!

housecat if nVidia had done this some of the nVidia fanboys would be defending them, and the ATI fanboys would be attacking them. I was meaning that debating the ethics or values of any companies and their marketing practices is useless.

 

[ronnn]

nm

 

[bersl2]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

No, don't "just get over it"; force them to be moral and ethical. Don't take their abuse; make them jump through the hoops to get your business. They will always try to trick you, and unless you punish them for their lying, they will keep doing it.

But no, you all are always about performance only. That's all you ever seem to care about. Then when they lie to you, you act suprised and feel wronged, when in fact you are only doing it to yourselves.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: trinibwoy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Its not from NV, so your first comment trying to prove that ATi and NV flame each other is moot. Which is what I was implying.

Well I don't know what your definition of flaming is. But even if the presentation didn't originate from Nvidia (which I believe it did), the comments from ATi were most definitely of the AT fanb0y flaming nature :laugh: If I didn't know better, there are a couple people here who could've easily come up with those remarks.

So you're assuming that its from NV, and that the comments are from ATi, without factual information? Im sorry, but I dont like to assume that much. Especially that its from NV. It looks very poor, and not like their normal slides.

I dont think NV nor ATi had anything to do with it.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: trinibwoy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Its not from NV, so your first comment trying to prove that ATi and NV flame each other is moot. Which is what I was implying.

Well I don't know what your definition of flaming is. But even if the presentation didn't originate from Nvidia (which I believe it did), the comments from ATi were most definitely of the AT fanb0y flaming nature :laugh: If I didn't know better, there are a couple people here who could've easily come up with those remarks.

So you're assuming that its from NV, and that the comments are from ATi, without factual information? Im sorry, but I dont like to assume that much. Especially that its from NV. It looks very poor, and not like their normal slides.

I dont think NV nor ATi had anything to do with it.

Oh so an employee of ATi admitting that she wrote the comments is not enough proof for you? What exactly will be enough? Do you want her to call you on the phone and tell you herself? :roll:

 

[PerfeK]

Everyone lies, both nVidia and ATi. Grow up and get over it.

 

[Ackmed]

I didnt see that part. If true, there is 1 out of 2 for you. You still need boths ends. And you dont know that NV made it.

Believe it if you want. I dont think they would stoop that low, considering a lot of the points are off. And as I said, it looks in very poor quality.

Until you can get proof NV made it, you shouldnt try to pass it off as proof that ATi and NV "flame" each other.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I didnt see that part. If true, there is 1 out of 2 for you. You still need boths ends. And you dont know that NV made it.

Believe it if you want. I dont think they would stoop that low, considering a lot of the points are off. And as I said, it looks in very poor quality.

Until you can get proof NV made it, you shouldnt try to pass it off as proof that ATi and NV "flame" each other.

This isn't a competition. I don't care if you believe Nvidia authored the original document or not. Based on the comments by ATi PR and the stated AIB source it seems that the document could have been born as an internal Nvidia checklist for salespeople pushing the SLI brand which either intentionally/mistakenly landed in the hands of an AIB which then forwarded the document to ATi.

You have no idea what happens behind closed doors at these companies so I'm not sure what you're basing the "poor quality" remark on.

I'm not stating a fact. I just said that based on the available evidence I believe it originated from Nvidia. Unless you have an alternative theory then you have no grounds on which to question my judgement.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: trinibwoy


This isn't a competition. I don't care if you believe Nvidia authored the original document or not. Based on the comments by ATi PR and the stated AIB source it seems that the document could have been born as an internal Nvidia checklist for salespeople pushing the SLI brand which either intentionally/mistakenly landed in the hands of an AIB which then forwarded the document to ATi.

You have no idea what happens behind closed doors at these companies so I'm not sure what you're basing the "poor quality" remark on.

I'm not stating a fact. I just said that based on the available evidence I believe it originated from Nvidia. Unless you have an alternative theory then you have no grounds on which to question my judgement.

No I dont have any idea, and you do? Ive seen offical NV slides, as many others have. They look a lot better than that, with the NV logo on them as well. Their offically released slides look much more professional. I just dont think NV made them. Where is the link from the ATi PR person? I missed it in that thread.

You are correct that you are not stating a fact, which is why you shouldnt use it as proof that NV and ATi flame each other, as you say. Evidence? Hardly. There is no evidence that this came from NV. And since there is no evidence, it shouldnt be used to try and state a fact.

The only theory that makes sense to me, is that some NV fan decided to take some poor jabs at ATI, and set this into motion. Do I have proof? Nope.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: bersl2

Originally posted by: fierydemise
There are lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing
No company is moral or ethical, they care only about the bottom line, this is nothing new, just get over it.

No, don't "just get over it"; force them to be moral and ethical. Don't take their abuse; make them jump through the hoops to get your business. They will always try to trick you, and unless you punish them for their lying, they will keep doing it.

But no, you all are always about performance only. That's all you ever seem to care about. Then when they lie to you, you act suprised and feel wronged, when in fact you are only doing it to yourselves.

What are you talking about? No one wants moral or ethical companys. Yeah some liberal nutjob might sit at some college and wish that consumers and the government would push "morality" (or in other words, a lack of freedom) upon companies forcefully..

but in reality, I want a fast video card. And I want one faster than yours. I dont care how many children in Zimbabwe (insert country there) have to suffer to get it, just as an example. You dont either, or you wouldnt shop at Walmart (insert company there).

All this pretentious talk about morality makes me puke up my capitalist mcdonalds food.

Everyone just needs to admit they are corporate consumer bitches and get on with it.
Or move to cuba.
I'm eagerly awaiting the R520 and G70 myself.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
No I dont have any idea, and you do? Ive seen offical NV slides, as many others have. They look a lot better than that, with the NV logo on them as well. Their offically released slides look much more professional. I just dont think NV made them. Where is the link from the ATi PR person? I missed it in that thread.

You are correct that you are not stating a fact, which is why you shouldnt use it as proof that NV and ATi flame each other, as you say. Evidence? Hardly. There is no evidence that this came from NV. And since there is no evidence, it shouldnt be used to try and state a fact.

The only theory that makes sense to me, is that some NV fan decided to take some poor jabs at ATI, and set this into motion. Do I have proof? Nope.

You are creating an issue where there is none. I don't need to prove that the document originated from Nvidia to support my point that they don't play nice. It would really help if you would just read a little.

Patricia Mikula in email to DaveBaumann:
Here?s what happened. We received the PDF in question from a ?source?. As I understand it they forwarded it to us because they thought we should see what is being said about us. I made ?comments? in the document which, in Acrobat show up as yellow thought-bubble type thingies. I sent the document back to others within ATI and actually referred to the saved document as ?with Patti?s angry comments?. (How could I not be angry ? have you read the document??) Anyway, I digress?

Someone deleted the comments and forwarded the document on. No one realized that the comments were embedded in the file still.I can assure you that we did not create the document.

Here are her comments -

(So customers are paying for SLI \(through unused transistors\) even if they only want to run a single card...

(Internal connector which won't connect correctly if slots are off by even a few millimetres...)

(Requires two identical graphics cards...hopefully they can find them when they want them...)

(If card manufacturers make bios changes mid-production run and customers want to upgrade down the road they are SOL...)

(compatible with what?? 80 games? doesn't sound like an entire ecosystem if you ask me...)

(Nvidia is so scared of CrossFire tha they are pre-launching their G70. They know their NV4x SLI platform won't cut it!)

(They don't deny that we have better performance, they are just complaining that we have only shown 3 games to beat them with...)

(glad they scknowledge that our single card beats their single card!)

(how is this different form their split screen method?? their aren't able to scale geometry either! )

(in the desert someone stranded will drink their own sweat...doesn't mean its any good...)

(wasted transistors, enthusiasts want leading technology, not something Nvidia slaps together)

(nvidia is rushing out news of their next-gen beacuse they are scared of CrossFire)

(when Nvidia was scared by R300 they rushed news of NV30 out to the masses. They promised the world and they delivered a dog. now they are making the same great promises with G70... deja vu??)

(1 year in and they can only support ~80 games.)

If that doesn't qualify as flaming then what the hell does. What exactly are you trying to say? That there is no bad blood between Nvidia and ATi. Do you realize that regular people work at these companies and are subject to same rivalries and emotions as everyone else? You seem to have a habit of nitpicking while missing the big picture.

 

[vision33r]

A few years back Nvidia misrepresented 3dfx's Voodoo3 AA samples and claimed the TNT3 was superior. Nothing new to today. Usually done when one company is getting news and attention and backstabbing comes along.

 

[Steelski]

This is really not striking.

One thing that should not be denied is that the 14xAA does seem a lot smoother on close inspection. even if the detail never dissapeared.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: Steelski
This is really not striking.

One thing that should not be denied is that the 14xAA does seem a lot smoother on close inspection. even if the detail never dissapeared.

Well it should. It is 14x!!! (actually glorified 12x but who's counting)

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: speedstream5621

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: speedstream5621

Originally posted by: g3pro
I'm just glad that more and more people see the crap that ATi puts out. They got beaten pretty bad with the 6-series, so the best counter they have is to cheat? Where did I hear this before? * cough * ATi shader day * cough *

For shame.

You haven't been around long have you? Both ATI and Nvidia do things like this.

ATI has done less, however-and when they do make a mistake, they acknowledge it immediately. In this case, it is unreasonable to say with 100% certainty that this was intentional...the same cannot be said for driver release upon driver release from Nvidia. The 6000 series is neck and neck with the X800 series too---not sure what you're talking about there.

Expect more of this from BOTH companies.

I've been here longer than you, post wise and time wise.

nVidia have done nothing so far to put down ATi products, and have been well behaved since the NV30 dramas.

All the crap that has been flung since then in the video card world has been crap of ATi's making.

Just to repeat again, it was ATi, not nVidia caught lying about the competitions products (something they are extremely "talented" at). So don't say both when it is only one.

Edit: It seems rather ironic that nVidia started cleaning up their PR act and ATi's started worsening right around the time that Richard Huddy left nVidia to join ATi...

I wasn't talking about how long you've been here on the forum...because that is irrelevant. I'm sure there are people here who have been members for ten years...and they're still morons when it comes to computers.

And again, you have taken my statement about both companies doing shady things out of context. The point is that both companies do things that are not "legit." Not that ATI misrepresented Nvidia's IQ and Nvidia has never done that.

No, sorry I don't agree. In the past, yes, nVidia has behaved badly with PR and rubbishing competitors. That hasn't happened for a long time now, certainly not since nV40 launched (probably not since nV35 launched actually).

By contrast, ATi is actively engaged in bad PR against its competitors as we speak.

At this point in time, nVidia is being a responsible, moral and honorable comany, and ATi is taking every chance it can find to attempt to drag its competitors through the mud (often while misrepresenting the true capabilities of its own hardware). That is indisputable fact.

About the grounds for the potential lawsuit I mentioned, the damages would definitely include loss of goodwill, as evidenced by forum discussions pertaining to the described events.

 

[Jeff7181]

I guess it's slightly possible that ATI could have messed something up or forgot to change a setting or something when they took the screenshot, but you would think rather than saying "sweet, look how crappy this looks compared to our's," they'd say "woah, this looks like crap, I better double check to make sure it's not a minor glitch."

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: trinibwoy



If that doesn't qualify as flaming then what the hell does. What exactly are you trying to say? That there is no bad blood between Nvidia and ATi. Do you realize that regular people work at these companies and are subject to same rivalries and emotions as everyone else? You seem to have a habit of nitpicking while missing the big picture.

The big picture is you using this as proof that NV and ATi flame each other. When it is not proof. I dont think you should use it as such, without proof. As there is no proof that NV made it. Simple as that. If you cant grasp that, then oh well. Im done talking about it.

 

[Tanclearas]

Funny thing was, as soon as I read the topic description, I thought, "I bet Rollo posted this."

Anyway... I must agree that pretty much every company in the industry has fudged the numbers. And guess what! They'll do it again.

It's kind of like when people get surprised when a politician lies...

 

[BFG10K]

At least ATi admitted themselves they couldn't reproduce the images, which is something I guess.

Unlike nVidia's response to 3DMark's audit report.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
At least ATi admitted themselves they couldn't reproduce the images, which is something I guess.

Unlike nVidia's response to 3DMark's audit report.

Classic BFG response.
Not that its a bad thing