Atheism in a year

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Why do you need to believe in a god in order to make sacrifices?

Who says you need to believe in God? Believe in what you will. Faith is, by definition, voluntary. My point is that it helps, something you can't deny, it seems.

The point is that believing in something greater than themselves gives people positive incentive to sacrifice. After all, why NOT steal? Why not murder? Why not cheat your neighbors for quick gain. Because you'd go to jail, right? :roll: That merely proves my belief that government is our god today, and that the only incentive to sacrifice that it can give is negative.

 

[0roo0roo]

interesting bbc documentary . torrent links should work.

Jonathan Millers Atheism Tapes Parts 1 & 2 of 6

Jonathan Millers Atheism Tapes Part 3 & 4 of 6

Jonathan Miller's Atheism Tapes Part 5 & 6 of 6

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Religion helps the weak minded deal with their own mortality.

That's not true at all. Only a suicidal fool does not fear his mortality to some extent.

That's as ridiculous as his statement. I don't fear my mortality. I accept that I'm here and I do what I do and I try to accomplish what I want to accomplish while I'm here, and when it's over it's over. I don't mind that there won't be any me any more because that's how things are. If you need to tell yourself that there's something more after that, that's your perogative. I, on the other hand, am very happy living my life the way I believe is best even if there isn't an afterlife.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: MechJinx
I could say the same for atheists, they refuse to belive in God so they don't have to deal with the possibility of there being consequences to their choices here on earth.

No, see, that's where you get things messed up. Since there is no proof, we don't believe in it. If I were to tell everyone that purple elephants existed and you said they didn't - by your logic - then you're just not willing to accept that it's true. C'mon. Seriously.

Also, don't tell yourself that Atheists don't believe in god because it's most convenient for them or because it helps them avoid worrying about consequences. MOST ATHEISTS REALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD! We're not just telling ourselves to not believe in God. There was never any convincing involved. That's like saying I'm just telling myself that chocolate chips don't contain HIV. I don't have to TELL myself anything because there's no reason for me to believe - and more importantly no facts to back up - that chocolate chips have HIV in the first place.

You missed the point of my reply. I was feeding what I thought was a troll reply. It turned out that Jules really does feel that religion is for the weak minded and I disagree with that comment completely. I was trying to joke off what I thought was a troll comment. Jules and I have very different opinions about this subject. I have no qualms with Atheists. I just disagree with the belief system.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
that makes no sense at all considering history and the destructive nature of religion.

even bees and ants know to make sacrifices for the good of the group. its adaptive, not religious.

Unlike most species, learned behavior is a crucial aspect of human evolution. That cannot be denied. But to hear someone who claims to believe in evolution as fact talk about "the destructive nature of religion" is to know you're talking with an idiot. You're probably all up in arms about the invasive species problem too, aren't you? And yet don't realize that that is evolution at its most perfect?

 

[UbiSunt]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: MechJinx
I could say the same for atheists, they refuse to belive in God so they don't have to deal with the possibility of there being consequences to their choices here on earth.

No, see, that's where you get things messed up. Since there is no proof, we don't believe in it. If I were to tell everyone that purple elephants existed and you said they didn't - by your logic - then you're just not willing to accept that it's true. C'mon. Seriously.

Also, don't tell yourself that Atheists don't believe in god because it's most convenient for them or because it helps them avoid worrying about consequences. MOST ATHEISTS REALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD! We're not just telling ourselves to not believe in God. There was never any convincing involved. That's like saying I'm just telling myself that chocolate chips don't contain HIV. I don't have to TELL myself anything because there's no reason for me to believe - and more importantly no facts to back up - that chocolate chips have HIV in the first place.

What does HIV and chocolate chips have to do with a logical argument, much less atheism?

edit: spelling

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Religion helps the weak minded deal with their own mortality.

That's not true at all. Only a suicidal fool does not fear his mortality to some extent.

That's as ridiculous as his statement. I don't fear my mortality. I accept that I'm here and I do what I do and I try to accomplish what I want to accomplish while I'm here, and when it's over it's over. I don't mind that there won't be any me any more because that's how things are. If you need to tell yourself that there's something more after that, that's your perogative. I, on the other hand, am very happy living my life the way I believe is best even if there isn't an afterlife.

Then kill yourself if you have no fear of death. Jump out of a plane without a parachute. Whatever.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: NOLOVE
I have no factual evidence to support my belief in God. I have no miracles that have touched my life that I can credit to God. The trees on this earth and the sun and the moon don't tell me that a God is here. I believe in God because he ties the irrefutable (sp) universal elements in humanity, life and wisdom together. No man-made scripture can tell me truth. Truth is logic. God is logical, be it an IT or a HE or a SHE or even a force. There is an undeniable wisdom put into this universe and each and every human being. For me, that is God... and I love God because of that.

That's fine and I accept that, but think very hard about this: if when you were born NOBODY ever mentioned anything about a God or a deity, are you SURE you'd still think there was one? I think that without the idea of a deity being introduced to a child, they just would leave unexplainable things as just that - unexplainable. They wouldn't decide there has to be something greater than them that made it so.

 

[Lorn]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: MechJinx
I could say the same for atheists, they refuse to belive in God so they don't have to deal with the possibility of there being consequences to their choices here on earth.

No, see, that's where you get things messed up. Since there is no proof, we don't believe in it. If I were to tell everyone that purple elephants existed and you said they didn't - by your logic - then you're just not willing to accept that it's true. C'mon. Seriously.

Also, don't tell yourself that Atheists don't believe in god because it's most convenient for them or because it helps them avoid worrying about consequences. MOST ATHEISTS REALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD! We're not just telling ourselves to not believe in God. There was never any convincing involved. That's like saying I'm just telling myself that chocolate chips don't contain HIV. I don't have to TELL myself anything because there's no reason for me to believe - and more importantly no facts to back up - that chocolate chips have HIV in the first place.

What does HIV and chocolate chips have to do with a logical argument, much less atheism?

edit: spelling

In case you missed the obvious; it's an analogy.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Why do you need to believe in a god in order to make sacrifices?

Who says you need to believe in God? Believe in what you will. Faith is, by definition, voluntary. My point is that it helps, something you can't deny, it seems.

The point is that believing in something greater than themselves gives people positive incentive to sacrifice. After all, why NOT steal? Why not murder? Why not cheat your neighbors for quick gain. Because you'd go to jail, right? :roll: That merely proves my belief that government is our god today, and that the only incentive to sacrifice that it can give is negative.

I guess it helps some people but it doesn't do anything for me.

I've seen society break down. I lived in Los Angeles during the riots in the early 90s. I could have been out there looting and pilaging but I'm not that type of person. I'd be willing to bet that some of the people who were looting were "church goers" though.

Fact is that more people have been killed throughout history in the name of religion than for any other reason. Who is to say that you are praying to the right god? What makes your religion or god the "right" one?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: malak

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Why does religion prevail? I think every needs something to believe in. Whether its the Biblical God, math, shoelaces or jellybeans. Everybody needs to have faith. Without faith, life is empty. So why attack religion if it hasn't done anything bad to you? Why try to convince people God doesn't exist? Just let them have faith in something.

I'm sure the OP has faith is SOMETHING. Everybody does.

He has faith in that he will die one day and cease to exist. Pretty depressing if you ask me.

and whats wrong with that kinda faith? thats pretty much what I beleive, i dont feel i live a depressed life, actually things are quite good currently

there IS only 1 absolute truth in the world and that is that we are all going to die someday

Then, I have an honest question to ask you, no sarcasm intended. If you truly believe that when you die, that's it, why believe in laws of the land? Why not do everything in your power to make your life as enjoyable as possible and screw what anyone thinks about it or how it adversely affects people that you don't know? Do you believe in mercy and sharing? I am honestly curious...

just because i beleive that when we die thats it, does not mean that i think we shoudl all be assholes in life, i beleive you shoudl live life to its fullest, and that is whatewver you deem fullest to be, if you wanna go out and do whatever you want because thats what you wanna do go ahead, however thats not for me

do i beleive in the laws we have? NO not all of them, but then breaking them woudl land me in jail, which would not be in accordance with living life to the fullest IMO jail != good. so i obey the laws so i can continue living my life to the fullest as i deem correct, if at some point i choose that say killing peopel is what i need to be doing then i guess i woudl be accepting whatever woudl happen to me at that point

do i beleive in mercy and sharing? YES, because i dont beleive in being an asshole

 

[UbiSunt]

Its pretty obvious I caught the analogy, its just the worst analogy I've ever heard.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Why do you need to believe in a god in order to make sacrifices?

Who says you need to believe in God? Believe in what you will. Faith is, by definition, voluntary. My point is that it helps, something you can't deny, it seems.

The point is that believing in something greater than themselves gives people positive incentive to sacrifice. After all, why NOT steal? Why not murder? Why not cheat your neighbors for quick gain. Because you'd go to jail, right? :roll: That merely proves my belief that government is our god today, and that the only incentive to sacrifice that it can give is negative.

because no society would work with everyone stealing and murdering. even based on sheer logic. it doesn't make sense to allow such things in a group of people living together. societies make rules, and ones that don't do not survive, its just that simple. even bees and wasps have rules. scientists have repainted markings on bees to make them into ranks they are not. they are punished by the others for cheating once caught.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: MechJinx
Then, I have an honest question to ask you, no sarcasm intended. If you truly believe that when you die, that's it, why believe in laws of the land? Why not do everything in your power to make your life as enjoyable as possible and screw what anyone thinks about it or how it adversely affects people that you don't know? Do you believe in mercy and sharing? I am honestly curious...

And I have a question for you... do you enjoy helping other people? If you were to give a poor man $5 to eat with and you knew that you helped that man eat, doesn't that make you feel good? I do what I do every day because enriching the lives of others gives me pleasure. I don't believe there's anyone out there appraising my every move like freaking Santa Claus so that I get something out of it some day. I don't go out and have sex with everyone that I wanted to because that would be rape and women, from what I hear, don't enjoy that too much. Because I want to enjoy my time here and enjoy being around others that enjoy their time here on earth, I choose not to do things that infringe on others' abilities to enjoy life.

I can't see any sane person seeing otherwise.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: MechJinx
Then, I have an honest question to ask you, no sarcasm intended. If you truly believe that when you die, that's it, why believe in laws of the land? Why not do everything in your power to make your life as enjoyable as possible and screw what anyone thinks about it or how it adversely affects people that you don't know? Do you believe in mercy and sharing? I am honestly curious...

And I have a question for you... do you enjoy helping other people? If you were to give a poor man $5 to eat with and you knew that you helped that man eat, doesn't that make you feel good? I do what I do every day because enriching the lives of others gives me pleasure. I don't believe there's anyone out there appraising my every move like freaking Santa Claus so that I get something out of it some day. I don't go out and have sex with everyone that I wanted to because that would be rape and women, from what I hear, don't enjoy that too much. Because I want to enjoy my time here and enjoy being around others that enjoy their time here on earth, I choose not to do things that infringe on others' abilities to enjoy life.

I can't see any sane person seeing otherwise.

exactly, that goes along perfectly with what i said about not being an asshole

 

[Lorn]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
Its pretty obvious I caught the analogy, its just the worst analogy I've ever heard.

Doesn't matter if you thought it was the worst analogy you've ever heard. The simple fact that you caught the analogy is enough to confirm that you're just crapping this thread.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I guess it helps some people but it doesn't do anything for me.

I've seen society break down. I lived in Los Angeles during the riots in the early 90s. I could have been out there looting and pilaging but I'm not that type of person. I'd be willing to bet that some of the people who were looting were "church goers" though.

Fact is that more people have been killed throughout history in the name of religion than for any other reason. Who is to say that you are praying to the right god? What makes your religion or god the "right" one?

Without a logical argument, you resort to petty personal attacks?
When did I say that I believed in any "right" religion or god? Never.
When did I say that simply by showing up to church every Sunday made someone righteous? Never.

As for your statement that "more people have been killed throughout history in the name of religion than for any other reason", that is complete brainwashed bullsh!t. An absolute and obvious lie that you have appear to have bought hook, line, and sinker, probably because you want to believe it. First, more people have been murdered by engaging in adultery than for any other reason. That is unquestioned. Second, nations go to war over land and resources. Always. Never over religion, except as an excuse by which to rally the masses.
The most destructive and deadly war in history was World War II. Was that fought over religion? No. Case closed.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Why do you need to believe in a god in order to make sacrifices?

Who says you need to believe in God? Believe in what you will. Faith is, by definition, voluntary. My point is that it helps, something you can't deny, it seems.

The point is that believing in something greater than themselves gives people positive incentive to sacrifice. After all, why NOT steal? Why not murder? Why not cheat your neighbors for quick gain. Because you'd go to jail, right? :roll: That merely proves my belief that government is our god today, and that the only incentive to sacrifice that it can give is negative.

because no society would work with everyone stealing and murdering. even based on sheer logic. it doesn't make sense to allow such things in a group of people living together. societies make rules, and ones that don't do not survive, its just that simple. even bees and wasps have rules. scientists have repainted markings on bees to make them into ranks they are not. they are punished by the others for cheating once caught.

Sounds like you agree with me then.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
What does HIV and chocolate chips have to do with a logical argument, much less atheism?

edit: spelling

It's very simple: nobody has to convince anyone else that something doesn't exist if they didn't have any reason to believe it existed in the first place.

You don't have to convince me that my refridgerator doesn't make things hot because I didn't think it did in the first place. By that same token, I don't have to convince myself there ISN'T a God because I don't see why there would be any reason to believe in one in the first place.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
Its pretty obvious I caught the analogy, its just the worst analogy I've ever heard.

It's purposefully over the top because the idea of a God or deity, to me, is over the top. It's such a HUGE thing to believe and base your life on when there's no proof of it.

 

[Lorn]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: NOLOVE
I have no factual evidence to support my belief in God. I have no miracles that have touched my life that I can credit to God. The trees on this earth and the sun and the moon don't tell me that a God is here. I believe in God because he ties the irrefutable (sp) universal elements in humanity, life and wisdom together. No man-made scripture can tell me truth. Truth is logic. God is logical, be it an IT or a HE or a SHE or even a force. There is an undeniable wisdom put into this universe and each and every human being. For me, that is God... and I love God because of that.

That's fine and I accept that, but think very hard about this: if when you were born NOBODY ever mentioned anything about a God or a deity, are you SURE you'd still think there was one? I think that without the idea of a deity being introduced to a child, they just would leave unexplainable things as just that - unexplainable. They wouldn't decide there has to be something greater than them that made it so.

I completely agree with you. Honestly I think that athiests are the most realistic of all people because they recognize the utter lack of evidence - which is required to support "truth" (at least the closest version of it that our subjective minds can acheive). But for me, God is present everywhere. I can't even explain it... it is just something I feel. It is the world around me, it is all that I can gather. From the fact that my foot is the same size as my forearm, to the fact that the shape of my DNA is embedded in every single thing in this universe. A connection is undeniable, no matter what your stance is on a creator. For me God isn't a being, a deity, or anything along the lines of that. For me, God is truth... which is unexplainable.

I don't really know how else to explain it.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Anubis
exactly, that goes along perfectly with what i said about not being an asshole

I thought so too. Great minds...

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: NOLOVE

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
Its pretty obvious I caught the analogy, its just the worst analogy I've ever heard.

Doesn't matter if you thought it was the worst analogy you've ever heard. The simple fact that you caught the analogy is enough to confirm that you're just crapping this thread.

0wned. Thanks.

 

[UbiSunt]

I realize your point, but the major criticisms of religion that have been floating around this thread are that it is an illogical and silly practice of weak-minded people. Making analogies using such obviously extreme examples doesn't seem much better in the same light. My point is, if you want to argue against or for religion, fine, but don't fabricate extreme illogical situations or ideas when you are criticizing exactly that.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
that makes no sense at all considering history and the destructive nature of religion.

even bees and ants know to make sacrifices for the good of the group. its adaptive, not religious.

Unlike most species, learned behavior is a crucial aspect of human evolution. That cannot be denied. But to hear someone who claims to believe in evolution as fact talk about "the destructive nature of religion" is to know you're talking with an idiot. You're probably all up in arms about the invasive species problem too, aren't you? And yet don't realize that that is evolution at its most perfect?

invasive species? wtf are you talking about? no ones pretending evolution is a moral process. who the hell said that but it can create good. like the advantage for many species of parental investment to ensure the survival of their young. it may not benifit the parents directly, but their decendents will probably win out over those who do not invest.

and of course religion is destructive. it dehumanizes all that do not believe as you. after all, its not a difference of opinion, but the spurning of god himself. and well your opinion no longer becomes just yours, you derive your authority from god and holy texts you dont won't and can't question, and that allows you to justify horrible things.