Atheism in a year

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: NOLOVE

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: NOLOVE
I have no factual evidence to support my belief in God. I have no miracles that have touched my life that I can credit to God. The trees on this earth and the sun and the moon don't tell me that a God is here. I believe in God because he ties the irrefutable (sp) universal elements in humanity, life and wisdom together. No man-made scripture can tell me truth. Truth is logic. God is logical, be it an IT or a HE or a SHE or even a force. There is an undeniable wisdom put into this universe and each and every human being. For me, that is God... and I love God because of that.

That's fine and I accept that, but think very hard about this: if when you were born NOBODY ever mentioned anything about a God or a deity, are you SURE you'd still think there was one? I think that without the idea of a deity being introduced to a child, they just would leave unexplainable things as just that - unexplainable. They wouldn't decide there has to be something greater than them that made it so.

I completely agree with you. Honestly I think that athiests are the most realistic of all people because they recognize the utter lack of evidence - which is required to support "truth" (at least the closest version of it that our subjective minds can acheive). But for me, God is present everywhere. I can't even explain it... it is just something I feel. It is the world around me, it is all that I can gather. From the fact that my foot is the same size as my forearm, to the fact that the shape of my DNA is embedded in every single thing in this universe. A connection is undeniable, no matter what your stance is on a creator. For me God isn't a being, a deity, or anything along the lines of that. For me, God is truth... which is unexplainable.

I don't really know how else to explain it.

Totally cool. I understand where you're coming from, and I have to say that I completely share your fascination with things that are so amazingly perfect.

 

[Lorn]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
I realize your point, but the major criticisms of religion that have been floating around this thread are that it is an illogical and silly practice of weak-minded people. Making analogies using such obviously extreme examples doesn't seem much better in the same light. My point is, if you want to argue against or for religion, fine, but don't fabricate extreme illogical situations or ideas when you are criticizing exactly that.

I don't mean to keep picking on you. Nor do I intend to be Ilmater's big brother...

But I think an over-the-top analogy is PERFECT for such an over-the-top concept as God.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
What does HIV and chocolate chips have to do with a logical argument, much less atheism?

edit: spelling

It's very simple: nobody has to convince anyone else that something doesn't exist if they didn't have any reason to believe it existed in the first place.

You don't have to convince me that my refridgerator doesn't make things hot because I didn't think it did in the first place. By that same token, I don't have to convince myself there ISN'T a God because I don't see why there would be any reason to believe in one in the first place.

Sadly, faith and reason are irreconcilable. You are trying to rationalize God or spirituality, which you can?t do. I?m a very rational person, and it?s taken a lot of self-discovery to have the fortitude to accept something without any facts (note: I am not a Christian).

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
...don't fabricate extreme illogical situations or ideas when you are criticizing exactly that.

But... wouldn't that kind of make sense? That's what I'm trying to get at.

But before getting into a semantics arguement, I would like to get back on-point. Would someone that believes in God (outside of NOLOVE because we already understand each other) please tell me what evidence there is? Please tell me what would make you believe in a God even if nobody outside of yourself had put that idea into your head.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Vic
Gurck, I don't get it. It seems that you answered your own question for the purpose of religion, while completely failing to notice that you did so.

As for your 1st 2 paragraphs, anytime you want a logical debate regarding the existence or non-existence of God, I will happily pin you down and beat you in a corner with the logical certainty that both are equally unlikely

I gave only one theory to get the thread going, and only touched lightly on it at that. In truth, I see it as part of a whole which makes perfect sense (other reasons include, but aren't limited to sentience's need for action and the effect looking forward has on attitude), but as I said in my OP, if I said it all in the OP there'd be less food for discussion, and I'd have closed the window without posting if not for an accident, so I've already spent too much time on this I'd be interested to hear you argue for what seems like a paradox though.

Originally posted by: archcommus
Talk about lacking logic.

Well, just one second after I read this thread, I hopped over to the Bible thread, and I couldn't BELIEVE that the same guy was bashing another for posting Bible "crap" and saying it doesn't belong in ATOT. Then why does this? That's the very definition of a hypocrite.

I wasn't aware it was cool to spew religious beliefs in here, but was informed that it wasn't only allowed, but encouraged, so I figured I'd join in. I find it fascinating, but not surprising, that the other post was all :thumbsup:s while mine ... enjoyed less approval. Hypocrisy, alright

Originally posted by: Vic
Now... look at our evil work today, with short-sighted greed and pettiness and destruction, and ask yourself what the "atheists" have gained for us in sacrificing the religious teachings of the ancients.

Disagree, all we really need to maintain society is to participate in it. Even "evil" people play their own part - the spyware example should be one we're all familiar with, yes? I could point out how many jobs it has created, for example. Advancement is taken care of by the drive to succeed; putting our competitive nature to better use is a definite step forward.

Many people act as though there was nothing detrimental to society in the past, but if that were the case, the general standard of living would have gone down as things got worse - not up. The heightened attention given to it by the media makes it appear more prominent, but rest assured it's not.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
invasive species? wtf are you talking about? no ones pretending evolution is a moral process. who the hell said that but it can create good. like the advantage for many species of parental investment to ensure the survival of their young. it may not benifit the parents directly, but their decendents will probably win out over those who do not invest.

and of course religion is destructive. it dehumanizes all that do not believe as you. after all, its not a difference of opinion, but the spurning of god himself. and well your opinion no longer becomes just yours, you derive your authority from god and holy texts you dont won't and can't question, and that allows you to justify horrible things.

At the current stage of human evolution, it must become a moral process, or else we will not survive ourselves. My point about invasive species was about so-called evolution believers who only believe in those aspects of evolution that suit them. Sorry, just my opinion of the editorial staff of the National Geo after some of their more recent articles. They don't seem to know what evolution actually is.

Pardon me, but your 2nd paragraph demonstrates tremendous ignorance and bigotry regarding religion and religious persons.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Why do you need to believe in a god in order to make sacrifices?

Who says you need to believe in God? Believe in what you will. Faith is, by definition, voluntary. My point is that it helps, something you can't deny, it seems.

The point is that believing in something greater than themselves gives people positive incentive to sacrifice. After all, why NOT steal? Why not murder? Why not cheat your neighbors for quick gain. Because you'd go to jail, right? :roll: That merely proves my belief that government is our god today, and that the only incentive to sacrifice that it can give is negative.

because no society would work with everyone stealing and murdering. even based on sheer logic. it doesn't make sense to allow such things in a group of people living together. societies make rules, and ones that don't do not survive, its just that simple. even bees and wasps have rules. scientists have repainted markings on bees to make them into ranks they are not. they are punished by the others for cheating once caught.

Sounds like you agree with me then.

only in that societies require rules...to avoid anarchy obviously. i do not agree that religious bases for the rules is good.

 

[UbiSunt]

There is no empirical evidence. NOLOVE himself stated that, and yet he believes in some form of a god. Think about it; how could you rationalize something that is non-rational. You can't. Logic does not apply, therefore logical or illogical arguments are going to go nowhere when discussing faith.

However, my criticism concerned your attempt at a logical argument concerning atheism, not faith. Therefore, I would like to see some cold hard LOGIC supporting your lack of belief. Making analogies about chocolate chips and HIV in the same argument tends to defy logic.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
I would like to see some cold hard LOGIC supporting your lack of belief.

Fair enough. How's this:

Since there are no facts proving religion and since faith can only exist outside of logic, then I see no reason why - even if you needed it to stay sane - you would believe in a deity. I don't understand how something that illogical or that utterly unprovable would give you the support you need to go on living. (and know that when I say "you," I mean the entire religious community, not just you)

 

[UbiSunt]

I don't know if I communicated this right. When I meant non-rational I did not mean illogical. I meant that the rational capacity of a human being cannot comprehend God. Therefore God is non-rational in that sense. Sort of like Plato's ideas about forms. A physical table makes rational sense, it has dimensions that can be measured, occupies space, etc. etc. However the perfect form of the perfect table is something intangible and cannot be analyzed, yet it exists.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
I would like to see some cold hard LOGIC supporting your lack of belief.

I don't see the need; If the burden of proof lies with anyone, it's with those claiming something not readily observable.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: malak

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Why does religion prevail? I think every needs something to believe in. Whether its the Biblical God, math, shoelaces or jellybeans. Everybody needs to have faith. Without faith, life is empty. So why attack religion if it hasn't done anything bad to you? Why try to convince people God doesn't exist? Just let them have faith in something.

I'm sure the OP has faith is SOMETHING. Everybody does.

He has faith in that he will die one day and cease to exist. Pretty depressing if you ask me.

and whats wrong with that kinda faith? thats pretty much what I beleive, i dont feel i live a depressed life, actually things are quite good currently

there IS only 1 absolute truth in the world and that is that we are all going to die someday

Then, I have an honest question to ask you, no sarcasm intended. If you truly believe that when you die, that's it, why believe in laws of the land? Why not do everything in your power to make your life as enjoyable as possible and screw what anyone thinks about it or how it adversely affects people that you don't know? Do you believe in mercy and sharing? I am honestly curious...

just because i beleive that when we die thats it, does not mean that i think we shoudl all be assholes in life, i beleive you shoudl live life to its fullest, and that is whatewver you deem fullest to be, if you wanna go out and do whatever you want because thats what you wanna do go ahead, however thats not for me

do i beleive in the laws we have? NO not all of them, but then breaking them woudl land me in jail, which would not be in accordance with living life to the fullest IMO jail != good. so i obey the laws so i can continue living my life to the fullest as i deem correct, if at some point i choose that say killing peopel is what i need to be doing then i guess i woudl be accepting whatever woudl happen to me at that point

do i beleive in mercy and sharing? YES, because i dont beleive in being an asshole

Thank you for sharing your beliefs, I was just curious what drives an atheist to believe in mercy, sharing, etc. I appreciate your willingness to reply to my question.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
invasive species? wtf are you talking about? no ones pretending evolution is a moral process. who the hell said that but it can create good. like the advantage for many species of parental investment to ensure the survival of their young. it may not benifit the parents directly, but their decendents will probably win out over those who do not invest.

and of course religion is destructive. it dehumanizes all that do not believe as you. after all, its not a difference of opinion, but the spurning of god himself. and well your opinion no longer becomes just yours, you derive your authority from god and holy texts you dont won't and can't question, and that allows you to justify horrible things.

At the current stage of human evolution, it must become a moral process, or else we will not survive ourselves. My point about invasive species was about so-called evolution believers who only believe in those aspects of evolution that suit them. Sorry, just my opinion of the editorial staff of the National Geo after some of their more recent articles. They don't seem to know what evolution actually is.

Pardon me, but your 2nd paragraph demonstrates tremendous ignorance and bigotry regarding religion and religious persons.

The idea that we should execpt invasion species because that is evolution is like we should except flying out the windshield of a car because that is what F=M*A indicates. Or I shouldn't have a roof over my head because if I need a roof it would have evolued. Just because we evolued doesn't mean we can't change the enviroment to what best suits use. If that means killing off birds that crap every where it has nothing to do with evolution. I know you like to think people use evolution as some gueding prinicpal to live by but no one does.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
I would like to see some cold hard LOGIC supporting your lack of belief.

Fair enough. How's this:

Since there are no facts proving religion and since faith can only exist outside of logic, then I see no reason why - even if you needed it to stay sane - you would believe in a deity. I don't understand how something that illogical or that utterly unprovable would give you the support you need to go on living. (and know that when I say "you," I mean the entire religious community, not just you)

Well, if you lived a hundred years ago, you might not have believed in the existence of Supernova, but that wouldn't prove they don't exist.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: MechJinx
Then, I have an honest question to ask you, no sarcasm intended. If you truly believe that when you die, that's it, why believe in laws of the land? Why not do everything in your power to make your life as enjoyable as possible and screw what anyone thinks about it or how it adversely affects people that you don't know? Do you believe in mercy and sharing? I am honestly curious...

And I have a question for you... do you enjoy helping other people? If you were to give a poor man $5 to eat with and you knew that you helped that man eat, doesn't that make you feel good? I do what I do every day because enriching the lives of others gives me pleasure. I don't believe there's anyone out there appraising my every move like freaking Santa Claus so that I get something out of it some day. I don't go out and have sex with everyone that I wanted to because that would be rape and women, from what I hear, don't enjoy that too much. Because I want to enjoy my time here and enjoy being around others that enjoy their time here on earth, I choose not to do things that infringe on others' abilities to enjoy life.

I can't see any sane person seeing otherwise.

I quite agree. Having never been an atheist or having any desire to give up my beliefs, I just thought I would ask the question. I get pleasure from helping out my fellow man, whether it be giving 5 bucks to a homeless person, giving a ride to a hitchhiker, helping my neighbor lay grass, move in, move out, etc. I enjoy those activities because it gives me a good feeling, not because I know God is watching my actions. I believe there are several levels of obeying the commandments of God. There is obeying out of fear of God's retribution, which you hinted at. Obeying out of a sense of duty and obeying out of a love for God and your fellow man. I believe it is better to obey out of fear than not to obey, but I strive in my life to obey out of love for my fellow man and a love of God, which I feel is the case in most instances. Have I ever obeyed a commandment out of fear or duty? Yes, but I strive to be better than that.

 

[BlueWeasel]

Originally posted by: Vic
As for your statement that "more people have been killed throughout history in the name of religion than for any other reason", that is complete brainwashed bullsh!t. An absolute and obvious lie that you have appear to have bought hook, line, and sinker, probably because you want to believe it. First, more people have been murdered by engaging in adultery than for any other reason. That is unquestioned. Second, nations go to war over land and resources. Always. Never over religion, except as an excuse by which to rally the masses.
The most destructive and deadly war in history was World War II. Was that fought over religion? No. Case closed.

He never said "more people have been killed throughout histroy in the name of religion during times of war"

Got a link or source stating more people have been killed as the result of adultery compared to religion? I'm not claiming to be right, and maybe I've just believed the masses, but I find it hard to believe your claims. If I'm wrong, then I'll eat crow and this can be a candidate for future pwnage.

As far as wars go, were the Crusades specifically for just the acquition of land/resources, or could it have something to do with religion?

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: UbiSunt
I would like to see some cold hard LOGIC supporting your lack of belief.

Fair enough. How's this:

Since there are no facts proving religion and since faith can only exist outside of logic, then I see no reason why - even if you needed it to stay sane - you would believe in a deity. I don't understand how something that illogical or that utterly unprovable would give you the support you need to go on living. (and know that when I say "you," I mean the entire religious community, not just you)

Well put.
Let me put forth the following hypothesis then. Since you say there is no scientific way to prove that God exists. But, what if there is a God and the only way to find out if he exists is to exercise faith that he exists. And, God is waiting for you to try to exercise a little faith even though it flies in the face of scientific logic. You don't ever try, what would be your answer when you face God after you die and he asks why you didn't exercise even a small amount of faith in him? No sarcasm intended in my question, I honestly would like your answer.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BlueWeasel
He never said "more people have been killed throughout histroy in the name of religion during times of war"

Got a link or source stating more people have been killed as the result of adultery compared to religion? I'm not claiming to be right, and maybe I've just believed the masses, but I find it hard to believe your claims. If I'm wrong, then I'll eat crow and this can be a candidate for future pwnage.

As far as wars go, were the Crusades specifically for just the acquition of land/resources, or could it have something to do with religion?

According to the FBI, "among all female murder victims in 1995, 26 percent were slain by husbands or boyfriends."

I have no idea where you think I could possibly get a link comparing statistics. What I will say is, I'm sure you've heard about men killing a cheating wife (or vice versa) and that is unfortunately not too uncommon. When was the last time you heard about someone being killed for their religion? Did Stalin kill his millions for religion? No. Hitler? No. Pol Pot? No. Napoleon? No. The KKK? No, they killed for race and only chased the papists off. The Ancient Hebrews in the Bible? No, they just wanted to occupy Canaan, that was a land grab. Genghis Khan? Nope. Must I go on?

The Crusades were about plunder. Pure and simple. The landless penniless younger son with no hope of inheritence had to make his fortune somehow.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I guess it helps some people but it doesn't do anything for me.

I've seen society break down. I lived in Los Angeles during the riots in the early 90s. I could have been out there looting and pilaging but I'm not that type of person. I'd be willing to bet that some of the people who were looting were "church goers" though.

Fact is that more people have been killed throughout history in the name of religion than for any other reason. Who is to say that you are praying to the right god? What makes your religion or god the "right" one?

Without a logical argument, you resort to petty personal attacks?
When did I say that I believed in any "right" religion or god? Never.
When did I say that simply by showing up to church every Sunday made someone righteous? Never.

As for your statement that "more people have been killed throughout history in the name of religion than for any other reason", that is complete brainwashed bullsh!t. An absolute and obvious lie that you have appear to have bought hook, line, and sinker, probably because you want to believe it. First, more people have been murdered by engaging in adultery than for any other reason. That is unquestioned. Second, nations go to war over land and resources. Always. Never over religion, except as an excuse by which to rally the masses.
The most destructive and deadly war in history was World War II. Was that fought over religion? No. Case closed.

I wasn't attacking you. Jesus H Christ. Don't be so god damned defensive.

I was raised in a religious family by religious people. I've been to church. I've read the bible. I've been baptised. None of it ever made much sense to me.

As for your other arguments...whatever...I couldn't care less. I don't believe in god. I think religion is a worthless waste of time. Deal with it. I'm done with this stupid thread.

BTW-I count WWII as a religious war. I'm sure the millions of Jews who were killed simply because they were Jewish do too. :roll:

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BlueWeasel
He never said "more people have been killed throughout histroy in the name of religion during times of war"

Got a link or source stating more people have been killed as the result of adultery compared to religion? I'm not claiming to be right, and maybe I've just believed the masses, but I find it hard to believe your claims. If I'm wrong, then I'll eat crow and this can be a candidate for future pwnage.

As far as wars go, were the Crusades specifically for just the acquition of land/resources, or could it have something to do with religion?

According to the FBI, "among all female murder victims in 1995, 26 percent were slain by husbands or boyfriends."

I have no idea where you think I could possibly get a link comparing statistics. What I will say is, I'm sure you've heard about men killing a cheating wife (or vice versa) and that is unfortunately not too uncommon. When was the last time you heard about someone being killed for their religion? Did Stalin kill his millions for religion? No. Hitler? No. Pol Pot? No. Napoleon? No. The KKK? No, they killed for race and only chased the papists off. The Ancient Hebrews in the Bible? No, they just wanted to occupy Canaan, that was a land grab. Genghis Khan? Nope. Must I go on?

The Crusades were about plunder. Pure and simple. The landless penniless younger son with no hope of inheritence had to make his fortune somehow.

Really?

 

[Vic]

Really.

Hitler did not kill Jews for religious reasons. Then as today, a large number of Jews were not religious, and even those non-religious Jews were thrown into the gas chamber.
Hitler killed Jews because he believed in a whacko paranoid conspiracy theory surrounding Jews, which he called "the International Jew", that was mostly centered on the partial Jewish control of the European banking and diamond industries of the time.

It also helped the Nazis that they took the land, property, and assets of every single Jew they threw into the concentration camps (and it is now known that the Nazis had the help of several "neutral" Swiss banks in doing this). And while an exact value has never been placed on this terrible forced wealth redistribution, it would not be out of line to state that the Nazis stole many billions of dollars from the Jews. It has long been my opinion that theft was one of the Nazis' primary motivations for the war. Hermann Goering, for example, trekked around Germany in his personal train which took 3 whole train cars just for his personal art collection.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: MechJinx
You don't ever try, what would be your answer when you face God after you die and he asks why you didn't exercise even a small amount of faith in him?

I would say, "In case you weren't aware, you gave me 5 senses. None of them indicated that you existed. Sorry."

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Vic
Really.

Hitler did not kill Jews for religious reasons. Then as today, a large number of Jews were not religious, and even those non-religious Jews were thrown into the gas chamber.
Hitler killed Jews because he believed in a whacko paranoid conspiracy theory surrounding Jews, which he called "the International Jew", that was mostly centered on the partial Jewish control of the European banking and diamond industries of the time.

It also helped the Nazis that they took the land, property, and assets of every single Jew they threw into the concentration camps (and it is now known that the Nazis had the help of several "neutral" Swiss banks in doing this). And while an exact value has never been placed on this terrible forced wealth redistribution, it would not be out of line to state that the Nazis stole many billions of dollars from the Jews. It has long been my opinion that theft was one of the Nazis' primary motivations for the war. Hermann Goering, for example, trekked around Germany in his personal train which took 3 whole train cars just for his personal art collection.

Wow, you are really really stupid (now I'm attacking you) Hitler thought the Jews were the scourge of Germany that they were a lower form of being than Arayans. What defines a Jewish person??? Hmm...let me think about this for a minute...RELIGION!!! Yes, I knew it would come to me.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Vic
Really.

Hitler did not kill Jews for religious reasons. Then as today, a large number of Jews were not religious, and even those non-religious Jews were thrown into the gas chamber.
Hitler killed Jews because he believed in a whacko paranoid conspiracy theory surrounding Jews, which he called "the International Jew", that was mostly centered on the partial Jewish control of the European banking and diamond industries of the time.

It also helped the Nazis that they took the land, property, and assets of every single Jew they threw into the concentration camps (and it is now known that the Nazis had the help of several "neutral" Swiss banks in doing this). And while an exact value has never been placed on this terrible forced wealth redistribution, it would not be out of line to state that the Nazis stole many billions of dollars from the Jews. It has long been my opinion that theft was one of the Nazis' primary motivations for the war. Hermann Goering, for example, trekked around Germany in his personal train which took 3 whole train cars just for his personal art collection.

Wow, you are really really stupid (now I'm attacking you) Hitler thought the Jews were the scourge of Germany that they were a lower form of being than Arayans. What defines a Jewish person??? Hmm...let me think about this for a minute...RELIGION!!! Yes, I knew it would come to me.

actually you can be jewish and not religious. Vic is mostly right, i think.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: Gurck
One of the biggest problems facing religion's credibility is the complete lack of evidence supporting the existence of a deity or deities.

This is why it's called "faith".
There's no supporting evidence that the sun will come up tomorrow, either.
I suppose the sun lacks credibility, eh?
Before I got my first piece of ass, I had no evidence it would happen. I had faith that it would, and it did.
I think it's extremely arrogant of humans to assume that they can understand everything.
That's in the face of MILLENIA of evidence that we don't know everything, and understand only part of what we know.
It's something of a contradiction to assume something doesn't exist because we can't see it or apply numbers to it.
I can feel it. That's enough for me. I don't understand it, nor do I need to.
I also believe I'll get another piece of ass someday. Oh, I think the sun will come up tomorrow, too.
As a qualifier, I don't have a religion. I just have God.