Atheism discussion thread

[destrekor]

The Nazis were atheists. You dont think their minds were poisoned by atheism? How about the Communists? Atheism sure is great for the mind, isnt it?

Power is what you are looking for, not atheism.

Communism itself does not describe an atheistic world view. It describes equality. Communist states take that, and with power in their eyes, often remove religion. Can't bow down to the state when you're bowing down to a god, can you?

When you say minds are poisoned by atheism, it is like one is saying a mind is poisoned by not having a belief in Fairies. It just makes no logical sense.

Make note, I never said believing in God is poison. On the contrast, it is a feature of our mind. I find it a positive notion to allow the people to believe in whatever the frak they want. But dammit don't organize it. THAT, is where I allude to a poisoning of the mind. Religion, organized and practiced, is backward progress for social civilization. Faith and belief do NOT require organized practice based around a lengthy set of religious writings.

I mean, when one religious group can say those of another religious group (or lack of religious group) will be damned for eternity with no blessings from this superior bearded man in the guy, I find that quite frightening. For instance, do you think those who commit suicide are not equal to the same afterlife you think you'll earn? What about gays? People who have abortions? Hell... abortion clinic bombers?

I find it concerning that we humans are still playing this ancient game. Belief in a higher power is something I have no qualms with. But when we can sit here and essentially judge others based on rather unimportant choices in life, I am left confused (yet your religious material says to never judge others. Sure, you say you aren't judging them, and that God is judging them instead. Subconsciously, you're ridiculing and harshly judging these persons, for they are dammed in your eyes - note, this is in general, not you specifically FelixDeKat).

Ultimately where I was originally going with this post... power is the cause of all the evils of man.

See, it isn't a lack of belief in a deity, rather it is the craving of power. There is a lot of psychological reasoning as to why those who do not directly have power will follow those with power, but suffice it to say, it does boil down to superiority and power.

And this is why they destroyed churches and murdered priests? Because they were not atheists, right?

Please.

Uh... you do realize someone doesn't have to be an atheist to destroy a church, yes?

That, gasp... historically speaking, Nations under one religion would have no qualms about destroying the religious property of a Nation under a different religion.

The destruction of religious property at the hands of Nazis was largely a matter of showcasing their power and capabilities. Hitler was a modern Napoleon... I have power! OMG, witness my power!!!!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

argumentum ad ignorantiam

You can not prove a premise false only because it has not been proven true.

I'll not defend any notion that a proposition can be decided false in absence of proof of it's truth, but strictly speaking atheism is not necessarily a belief that the proposition "There are exactly zero gods" is true. I'll certainly stipulate that numerous atheists believe that the proposition is true, but it is a superfluous belief to basic atheism.

 

[Andrew1990]

I see myself as atheist but I do believe there are no coincidences. Everything happens for a reason no matter what. Somewhat like a straight line. Therefore, everything you do continues to ripple through that line because you were part of what made it.

Although I had a lot of coffee today and I spaz out with coffeeee.

 

[sandorski]

argumentum ad ignorantiam

You can not prove a premise false only because it has not been proven true.

Ah, but the subject is not a Premise, but a claim of Fact.

 

[El Guaraguao]

I dont know latin for fuck off.

But seriously, God is in the same category as the Easter Bilby and Santa Claus and disney characters

Incorrect, my friend. I saw Goofy the other day bustin a groove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6QKcNQ89cU&feature=related
:awe:

 

[TubeTote]

Alright, here it goes...

Somehow I know I'll take a bunch of shit for this, but here's some reasons I posted on this topic to begin with...

First off, I enjoy learning from others and their experiences. This adds meaning and understanding to my life.

I am very interested in science, space, the universe, astronomy...but not very knowledgable as of yet. I like people to post factual data or theories regarding these matters.

I'm pretty much an agnostic, and sometimes get confused over religious debate. A past thread had a link to a Christopher Hitchens program which I found to be unbelievably good. He wipes the floor with his opponents...but still doesn't really answer all the questions in a manner that makes me consider myself an atheist.

And this bothers me the most about atheism...I have had so many experiences in life that seem to prove, at minimum, an alternate existance or spiritual realm. I'm a pretty logical and well educated person, and always like statements to have some rendering of proof so perhaps an example is due here...

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine was killed in an auto wreck. He was driving home after drinking at the bar, and hit a tree. He was ejected through the windshield and bashed his head against the tree. He was still alive, but brain dead. After about a week of this, the parents decided it was time to pull the plug. I attended the funeral with many other friends of mine. Keep in mind here that this was a friend, but not really a close one...I was very saddened but not an emotional wreck over this. I will never forget the strange energy I felt as I approached his urn. It was an overwhelming feeling of sadness like I had never felt before...like almost a heat or radiation. The closer I got to the urn, the more I could feel it. It nearly made me ill. I returned to my seat with a very uneasy feeling of uncertainty...was I just imagining all this? One of my close friends who was sitting next to me said "woah, did you feel the energy coming off that urn"? I never experienced anything like it before or since, and I have been to a number of funerals of much closer friends and family members...so wtf happened? What was that? I KNOW I did not cause myself to feel this strange energy. This is just one experience that I have no explanation for, and it is why I tend to have a somewhat Deistic/agnostic belief in a spiritual world we cannot see. I do not believe any of the organized religions have it right.


...guess I better put on my fireproof outfit

 

[JackBurton]

To pray is to genuinely affect reality, you just dont realize it. I can give you real life examples. You will dismiss them, but thats what I expect from an atheist.

The angels have warned me about certain things before they even happen. Despite your rejection of God, they still pray for you.

God bless the guardian angels. ()

lol, magic people talk to you.

 

[MJinZ]

Ah, but the subject is not a Premise, but a claim of Fact.

That's the definition of a premise.

 

[Andrew1990]

lol, magic people talk to you.

Next time, he may even hear something from Merlin the Magician!

 

[MJinZ]

I'll not defend any notion that a proposition can be decided false in absence of proof of it's truth, but strictly speaking atheism is not necessarily a belief that the proposition "There are exactly zero gods" is true. I'll certainly stipulate that numerous atheists believe that the proposition is true, but it is a superfluous belief to basic atheism.

I would actually agree with some that Atheism only exists insofar as Christianity or any religion exists. Technically speaking, since no man has disproven the existence of God, no man can logically claim to be an Atheist, depending on your definition of Atheism.

Sandorski obviously believes that "There are exactly zero gods" and thus is committing a logical fallacy, and one that means he is an Atheist in his illogical world. If you do not commit the same logical fallacy, but still agree that the definition of Atheism is "There are exactly zero gods", then you are not an Atheist by definition.

PS. I responded to your Non-Sequitur comment in my prior post as edited.

 

[sandorski]

Alright, here it goes...

Somehow I know I'll take a bunch of shit for this, but here's some reasons I posted on this topic to begin with...

First off, I enjoy learning from others and their experiences. This adds meaning and understanding to my life.

I am very interested in science, space, the universe, astronomy...but not very knowledgable as of yet. I like people to post factual data or theories regarding these matters.

I'm pretty much an agnostic, and sometimes get confused over religious debate. A past thread had a link to a Christopher Hitchens program which I found to be unbelievably good. He wipes the floor with his opponents...but still doesn't really answer all the questions in a manner that makes me consider myself an atheist.

And this bothers me the most about atheism...I have had so many experiences in life that seem to prove, at minimum, an alternate existance or spiritual realm. I'm a pretty logical and well educated person, and always like statements to have some rendering of proof so perhaps an example is due here...

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine was killed in an auto wreck. He was driving home after drinking at the bar, and hit a tree. He was ejected through the windshield and bashed his head against the tree. He was still alive, but brain dead. After about a week of this, the parents decided it was time to pull the plug. I attended the funeral with many other friends of mine. Keep in mind here that this was a friend, but not really a close one...I was very saddened but not an emotional wreck over this. I will never forget the strange energy I felt as I approached his urn. It was an overwhelming feeling of sadness like I had never felt before...like almost a heat or radiation. The closer I got to the urn, the more I could feel it. It nearly made me ill. I returned to my seat with a very uneasy feeling of uncertainty...was I just imagining all this? One of my close friends who was sitting next to me said "woah, did you feel the energy coming off that urn"? I never experienced anything like it before or since, and I have been to a number of funerals of much closer friends and family members...so wtf happened? What was that? I KNOW I did not cause myself to feel this strange energy. This is just one experience that I have no explanation for, and it is why I tend to have a somewhat Deistic/agnostic belief in a spiritual world we cannot see. I do not believe any of the organized religions have it right.


...guess I better put on my fireproof outfit

The Emotion of Loss. I was at Work when I got a call that my Dad had died. I felt ok and was going to continue working, but 5 minutes later I just started balling as the news hit me. It wasn't Spiritual, just the fact that when I went home for XMas or other time, my father would no longer be there.

 

[TubeTote]

The Emotion of Loss.

Believe me, that was my first thought, and perhaps the best explanation...

but like I stated, I was saddened but this was not a close friend. I have been to much tougher funerals and never felt this strange sensation. Let me put it this way...I was so perplexed that I moved closer and further from the urn to see if the energy got stronger and weaker...and it did. I don't know, it still bothers me to this day. And what about my friend feeling the same energy coming from that specific place?

I would love it if someone could explain this to me scientifically, but don't know if it's possible.

 

[sandorski]

That's the definition of a premise.

Not quite. A Premise is an Assumption, not a statement of Fact. A Religious person does not Assume there is a god(s), they literally Know there is a god(s).

 

[El Guaraguao]

lol, magic people talk to you.

Im actually interested in what these "real life examples" felixdekat can provide us with.

felixdekat, whatchugot? :hmm:

 

[MJinZ]

Not quite. A Premise is an Assumption, not a statement of Fact. A Religious person does not Assume there is a god(s), they literally Know there is a god(s).

Main Entry: as·sump·tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsəm(p)-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
Date: 13th century
1 a : the taking up of a person into heaven b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2 : a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
3 : the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4 : arrogance, pretension
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted
6 : the taking over of another's debts

_____


Main Entry: 1prem&#183;ise
Variant(s): also pre&#183;miss \&#712;pre-m&#601;s\
Function: noun
Etymology: in sense 1, from Middle English premisse, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin praemissa, from Latin, feminine of praemissus, past participle of praemittere to place ahead, from prae- pre- + mittere to send; in other senses, from Middle English premisses, from Medieval Latin praemissa, from Latin, neuter plural of praemissus
Date: 14th century
1 a : a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference; specifically : either of the first two propositions of a syllogism from which the conclusion is drawn b : something assumed or taken for granted : presupposition
2 plural : matters previously stated; specifically : the preliminary and explanatory part of a deed or of a bill in equity
3 plural [from its being identified in the premises of the deed] a : a tract of land with the buildings thereon b : a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (as grounds)

 

[techs]

"God is dead" Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead" God

 

[sandorski]

Main Entry: as·sump·tion
Pronunciation: \&#601;-&#712;s&#601;m(p)-sh&#601;n\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
Date: 13th century
1 a : the taking up of a person into heaven b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2 : a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
3 : the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4 : arrogance, pretension
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted
6 : the taking over of another's debts

Yes, an Assumption.

 

[Jeff7]

...
I will never forget the strange energy I felt as I approached his urn. It was an overwhelming feeling of sadness like I had never felt before...like almost a heat or radiation. The closer I got to the urn, the more I could feel it. It nearly made me ill. I returned to my seat with a very uneasy feeling of uncertainty...was I just imagining all this? One of my close friends who was sitting next to me said "woah, did you feel the energy coming off that urn"? I never experienced anything like it before or since, and I have been to a number of funerals of much closer friends and family members...so wtf happened? What was that? I KNOW I did not cause myself to feel this strange energy. This is just one experience that I have no explanation for, and it is why I tend to have a somewhat Deistic/agnostic belief in a spiritual world we cannot see. I do not believe any of the organized religions have it right.

I would bet considerable money that I could have replaced that urn with another one with absolutely nothing in it, without your knowledge, and you and your friend still would have experienced exactly the same thing. The placebo effect is quite exceedingly powerful. You approached the urn knowing full well that what was within it was the incinerated remains of someone you once knew quite well in life, and that's not something you encounter on a regular basis - it's going to mess with your mind in some unusual ways.
And the human brain is just weird to begin with. Sleep paralysis is one crazy thing that sounds like it's quite a freaky experience, sometimes complete with hallucinations of a person standing nearby. But there's nothing supernatural about it, it's just some screwy interactions in our brains and bodies that generate the effect, stuck in limbo between awake and asleep. People just think it's supernatural because it differs so drastically from what we encounter in daily life.

To pray is to genuinely affect reality, you just dont realize it. I can give you real life examples. You will dismiss them, but thats what I expect from an atheist.

You know me too well.
Any examples/"evidence" I've ever heard for the effectiveness of prayer is usually emotionally-charged circumstantial evidence.

It of course still doesn't answer the issue of why angels seem to do things only some of the time. I have seen these things on the news, where the lone survivor of a terrible accident says that he was saved by God/angels/whatever, disregarding the fact that hundreds of others died in the same accident. Did they just have it coming? Does God prefer to clean up messes, rather than prevent them? There's a lot of seriously screwed up problems in this world, and terribly few cases of seemingly miraculous life-saving things.
Example: Many many people are utterly impoverished on Earth. Sure you can pray all you want, but ultimately, the way to get these people out of poverty is for people to do the hard work, all on their own. Miracles don't seem to happen these days.

 

[sandorski]

"God is dead" Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead" God

"God never existed" -- Anonymous, sandorski

2 v 0 I win by default

 

[TubeTote]

Emotion

And here is another subject of debate...where does this come from? Why do we have feelings for others? This is all just chemical reactions? I do believe that there is some scientific study into this...but the intensity of emotion sometimes seems much greater than can be scientifically explained.

 

[MJinZ]

Yes, an Assumption.

Are you disagreeing with Merriam Webster?

It is obvious an an assumption is something taken to be true, also known as a fact.

 

[TubeTote]

I would bet considerable money that I could have replaced that urn with another one with absolutely nothing in it, without your knowledge, and you and your friend still would have experienced exactly the same thing. The placebo effect is quite exceedingly powerful. You approached the urn knowing full well that what was within it was the incinerated remains of someone you once knew quite well in life, and that's not something you encounter on a regular basis - it's going to mess with your mind in some unusual ways.
And the human brain is just weird to begin with. Sleep paralysis is one crazy thing that sounds like it's quite a freaky experience, sometimes complete with hallucinations of a person standing nearby. But there's nothing supernatural about it, it's just some screwy interactions in our brains and bodies that generate the effect, stuck in limbo between awake and asleep. People just think it's supernatural because it differs so drastically from what we encounter in daily life.

That is very well put, and very possible...but I sure wish I could have shared this experience with more people who could relate to it. It seemed so unwelcome, almost like an invasion of my psyche, which made me feel guilty.

 

[sandorski]

And here is another subject of debate...where does this come from? Why do we have feelings for others? This is all just chemical reactions? I do believe that there is some scientific study into this...but the intensity of emotion sometimes seems much greater than can be scientifically explained.

Hormone secretion mostly, as I recall. It all happens in the Brain and is the reason that Drugs often Suppress or Enhance Emotions.

 

[Jeff7]

That is very well put, and very possible...but I sure wish I could have shared this experience with more people who could relate to it. It seemed so unwelcome, almost like an invasion of my psyche, which made me feel guilty.

Oh, I'm familiar with this sort of experience. I've had relatives die as well, and it's a very weird hair-raising feeling to approach the casket and see them there, knowing that they're never coming back. But still, I've found there to be nothing supernatural about it.

 

[sandorski]

Are you disagreeing with Merriam Webster?

It is obvious an an assumption is something taken to be true, also known as a fact.

Ok, you got me.

Doesn't change anything though. There are no gods.