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I know what you mean.
Newer raids throw so much more at players, but it's far more predictable and controllable. I feel you can just DPS as a robot and follow the directions that deadly boss mods give you while in vanilla wow you had to do a lot more without prompting.
Sure, now you have 10 different buttons to push instead of 4, but it seems like you have more leeway with those buttons and you can be down on DPS or gear and still win the fight easily as long as you all do the dance.
In molten core, as a warlock, if I screwed up a banish it could be a wipe. A class ability I used in instances, while leveling, and in raiding was a key mechanic of some trash and one boss fight. It feels like in the modern raids every boss has it's own unique new mechanic which has nothing to do with playing your class or even playing world of Warcraft except for this one specific case right in this one fight.
It's like going through math in school, you have basic math, algebra, geometry, functions, trig, and then the next "math" class is... dodge ball. WTF does it have to do with math? Nothing, but it's harder! After you finish dodge ball you can do hardmode dodge ball, which adds calculus problems to the game.
my recollections of MC raiding was about 15 really good players and 25 people just going auto-attack/afk.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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I think you guys may be forgetting, but we've had boss add-ons since Blackwing Lair, and I started BWL when it was released. 
KTM was mentioned, but even though it wasn't as accurate since it guessed threat numbers and required people to join a chat channel to sync data (or was that the early DPS meters?). I'm sure some of you remember having to join channels to sync data. I think Blizzard cleared that up during early TBC?
As for Lucifron 2.0, I think some of the mechanics of the fight would be trivialized by newer abilities... especially the Priest's Mass Dispel. To be honest though, Lucifron wasn't even that hard of a fight, and most of the fights were hard because:
a) The gear as absolute junk and typically hard to get. It took me forever just to complete Dal'Rend's set on my Rogue. I actually had to downgrade my weapon, because I had the Skullforge Reaver (from Baron Rivendare), and it applied a small DoT. Anyone that raided back then knows you were limited with the amount of debuffs that you could apply, so things like that were a huge no-no.
b) Classes were kind of crappy. There are a lot of nice things we have now that we simply did not have back then, and even differences between the factions usually caused arguments. Magmadar was slightly more difficult, because of the fear aspect. Tremor totems helped trivialize it as well as being an Undead (Will of the Forsaken had a 30 second immunity to Charm, Sleep and Fear). Another example was Razorgore and using Earthbind totems to slow the adds.
The fairly recent homogenization and revamping of classes has lead to a much better and more fluid experience. I think Vaelastrasz would be interesting to see people do again. Especially if Blizzard left in the 1 hour timer on it (similar to Algalon). Although, Vael wasn't really that hard of a fight. We didn't even use KTM, because the only class that could really catch up on DPS were the rogues, and all we did was Vanish once the first tank got Burning Adrenaline put on him.
KTM was mentioned, but even though it wasn't as accurate since it guessed threat numbers and required people to join a chat channel to sync data (or was that the early DPS meters?). I'm sure some of you remember having to join channels to sync data. I think Blizzard cleared that up during early TBC?As for Lucifron 2.0, I think some of the mechanics of the fight would be trivialized by newer abilities... especially the Priest's Mass Dispel. To be honest though, Lucifron wasn't even that hard of a fight, and most of the fights were hard because:
a) The gear as absolute junk and typically hard to get. It took me forever just to complete Dal'Rend's set on my Rogue. I actually had to downgrade my weapon, because I had the Skullforge Reaver (from Baron Rivendare), and it applied a small DoT. Anyone that raided back then knows you were limited with the amount of debuffs that you could apply, so things like that were a huge no-no.
b) Classes were kind of crappy. There are a lot of nice things we have now that we simply did not have back then, and even differences between the factions usually caused arguments. Magmadar was slightly more difficult, because of the fear aspect. Tremor totems helped trivialize it as well as being an Undead (Will of the Forsaken had a 30 second immunity to Charm, Sleep and Fear). Another example was Razorgore and using Earthbind totems to slow the adds.
The fairly recent homogenization and revamping of classes has lead to a much better and more fluid experience. I think Vaelastrasz would be interesting to see people do again. Especially if Blizzard left in the 1 hour timer on it (similar to Algalon). Although, Vael wasn't really that hard of a fight. We didn't even use KTM, because the only class that could really catch up on DPS were the rogues, and all we did was Vanish once the first tank got Burning Adrenaline put on him.
Blah, I had a nice post written and lost it before I could submit it.
Anyway, as I said the point would be to scale Neolucifron to a tier 12 raider as original Lucifron was towards a vanilla 60 in greens & dungeon blues. I think most people who say Lucifron is easy fought him with the benefits of ZG gear, PvP gear, or raiders who already had raid epics. If you killed him back in vanilla patch 1.3 it was a little bit tougher, as it was the first raid encounter and it was likely that nobody in your entire raid had the benefits of higher iLvl epic gear.
While sometimes it's hard to consider the impact of "worse gear", one important detail is that a new raiding tank without epics was guaranteed to be "crush-able" by bosses, because you couldn't reach the defense cap in vanilla blue/green gear without severely sacrificing hp. Tanks got hit hard, and the healers were busy dispelling and decursing and handling mind controlled allies so it wasn't the easiest fight to manage.
If Neolucifron was scaled to be balanced against a tier 12 raider, it would be much harder than the Lucifron that most players raided, due to the gear difference.
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zokudu
Diamond Member
- Nov 11, 2009
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See the issue is we do everything involved in 90% of that fight right now while doing more things. It might not be named the same but its still the same idea. Lets look at that comments "walkthrough" of sorts:
So Main Tank away from the main group while everyone else kills adds? You do this on Shannox on Normal mode, focusing down Rageface till he dies then Shannox for a bit then Riplimb till he dies then kill Shannox.
Manage Adds being sure to focus certain ones down first? This happens on Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, Alysrazor, Shannox, and even somewhat Ragnaros.
Finally dispels. I don't think there are any major dispels this tier but Valiona & Theralion were the major one last tier.
On top of all of those mechanics theres more stuff going on in all of those encounters. Shannox has the tanks moving to trap riplimb to drop jagged tear stacks and the dps need to avoid traps as well as the increased healing as the dogs die. V&T had deep breaths, as well as all of the "void" zones in the area.
I personally think that fight would:
1. Be really easy if you had a priest and a mage in a 10m group.
2. Be really stupid for anyone who doesn't have a priest in their raid group.
You have to think about it and compartmentalize it just like I tell my raiders nowadays.
On Shannox all the DPS has to do is hit the right target and avoid traps. All the tanks have to do is move around in a way to drop jagged tear debuffs when Shannox throws his spear. All healers have to do is shift from healing either the raid or the Off Tank to healing the main tank as the other targets die. Sounds easy.
Now do this with the Lucifron encounter. The Mages have to decurse and dps the proper target. The rest of the dps have to target the right target. The tanks have to tank the target in front of them. The tank healers have to heal their tanks. The raid healers have to heal anyone who did not get decursed. Sounds even easier.
When you break it down like that the players are just doing what they should with no real stuff thrown in. That is why vanilla encounters are so stupid. The difficulty never really came from the mechanics of the fight. ie Something cheap but rather from the ineptitude of the ragtag group of 40 people you threw together.
So Main Tank away from the main group while everyone else kills adds? You do this on Shannox on Normal mode, focusing down Rageface till he dies then Shannox for a bit then Riplimb till he dies then kill Shannox.
Manage Adds being sure to focus certain ones down first? This happens on Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, Alysrazor, Shannox, and even somewhat Ragnaros.
Finally dispels. I don't think there are any major dispels this tier but Valiona & Theralion were the major one last tier.
On top of all of those mechanics theres more stuff going on in all of those encounters. Shannox has the tanks moving to trap riplimb to drop jagged tear stacks and the dps need to avoid traps as well as the increased healing as the dogs die. V&T had deep breaths, as well as all of the "void" zones in the area.
I personally think that fight would:
1. Be really easy if you had a priest and a mage in a 10m group.
2. Be really stupid for anyone who doesn't have a priest in their raid group.
You have to think about it and compartmentalize it just like I tell my raiders nowadays.
On Shannox all the DPS has to do is hit the right target and avoid traps. All the tanks have to do is move around in a way to drop jagged tear debuffs when Shannox throws his spear. All healers have to do is shift from healing either the raid or the Off Tank to healing the main tank as the other targets die. Sounds easy.
Now do this with the Lucifron encounter. The Mages have to decurse and dps the proper target. The rest of the dps have to target the right target. The tanks have to tank the target in front of them. The tank healers have to heal their tanks. The raid healers have to heal anyone who did not get decursed. Sounds even easier.
When you break it down like that the players are just doing what they should with no real stuff thrown in. That is why vanilla encounters are so stupid. The difficulty never really came from the mechanics of the fight. ie Something cheap but rather from the ineptitude of the ragtag group of 40 people you threw together.
It sounds like you just wiped. You didn't account for the mind control at all, your whole raid dies when your mage gets mind controlled and you don't have a secondary plan for dealing with the curse.
Also,
>The raid healers have to heal anyone who did not get decursed.
I hope you are just using the lazy meaning of "decursed" as to mean not being dispelled, as the curse doesn't deal damage, the doom (a magic effect, not curse) is what does the damage.
A fight can sound very simple while in practice it is very very complicated. Without over-gearing Lucifron isn't the joke you might think it is.
The real strategy to win the fight is much more complicated, and it's not a matter of just pressing buttons hard enough or following boss mods.
zokudu
Diamond Member
- Nov 11, 2009
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Oh god I said decurse instead of dispel.
Healers should be removing:
Every healer can remove magic debuffs now.
Remove this with a mage and if you do not have one set a healer on it any healer worth their salt has click casting or mouseover macros so this is not really a problem at all especially with the joke that mana usage has become once in T11+ gear which is available from justice points. Really any Druid or Shaman could do this as well. Hell I could probably manage it while tanking especially after they kill the add that I'm supposedly tanking.
This mechanic was one of the main focus' of Cho'gall and that fight has 400 other things going on in addition handle it the exact same way.
Is that clear enough? This fight is a complete joke compared with what an average raid does on any boss that isn't Shannox in Firelands and Firelands is a lot easier than T11 was before its nerf.
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Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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I think the issue that I pointed out with gear still stands, because not only did we not have good gear, but the gear itself had awful stats on it. My Rogue tier 1 set had dodge on it, for Pete's sake!
Also, I believe we had already cleared MC by the time ZG came out (which was before BWL). I know what it was like being in terrible gear in there, and I really don't think gear was what caused our problems.
EDIT:
So how big of a "fail boat" do you think Looking for Raid will be? I mean... I've seen how hard it is sometimes for five people to work together in Looking for Group. Speaking with people that tried it on the PTR, they said it was a relatively awful experience. Here's what I foresee:
1) A bunch of people that don't know the fight and that includes at least reading up on it or watching a video.
2) People probably not geared properly including improper pieces (I've seen rogues in LFG with int holiday gear) or PVP gear to boost their ilevel up.
3) The inability to efficiently communicate will cause problems. No one uses the in-game communication, and how many people own their own vent servers? Of course, I ask this and I actually do have my own! :biggrin:
Also, I believe we had already cleared MC by the time ZG came out (which was before BWL). I know what it was like being in terrible gear in there, and I really don't think gear was what caused our problems.
EDIT:
So how big of a "fail boat" do you think Looking for Raid will be? I mean... I've seen how hard it is sometimes for five people to work together in Looking for Group. Speaking with people that tried it on the PTR, they said it was a relatively awful experience. Here's what I foresee:
1) A bunch of people that don't know the fight and that includes at least reading up on it or watching a video.
2) People probably not geared properly including improper pieces (I've seen rogues in LFG with int holiday gear) or PVP gear to boost their ilevel up.
3) The inability to efficiently communicate will cause problems. No one uses the in-game communication, and how many people own their own vent servers? Of course, I ask this and I actually do have my own! :biggrin:
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No, you still wipe with that strategy given your corrections.
>Remove this with a mage and if you do not have one set a healer on it any healer worth
> click casting or mouseover macros so this is not really a problem at all
He casts it every 15 seconds. If you flawlessly decurse your 10 man raid you can decurse your entire raid just in time for a second curse to be cast. In other words, your DPS is zero and if you get charmed (even if it's instantly dispelled) you will fail to decurse at least one raid member. Also, at least half of your raid is going to have to deal with being cursed for over 50% of the fight (since you won't dispel them until 8 seconds after the cast) and one unlucky raid member might as well be cursed the entire fight, as you will only cast the dispel just as the curse is re-applied.
Click casting or macros don't make a difference, the difficulty is the fact that the entire raid gets cursed and you are limited by global cooldowns, not that it's hard to decurse people.
Also, there is a certain strategy to it. For example, if you don't dispel yourself first you will go oom decursing pretty fast. But then you have to decurse the main healer right away, because if he goes oom the tank dies and you wipe. Then you have to decurse the tank, because hell if he can't use his abilities due to power costs being doubled he won't hold agro and you will wipe, etc. So you can prioritize it like that, but it means your DPS is cut in half because you aren't decursing them until after 6-8 seconds.
The fight isn't hard because of the mechanics alone, the fight is hard because you will run OOM before the boss dies with your strategy- your DPs are not getting decursed fast enough to be useful and your tank could well die if your main healers and dispellers get mind controlled.
Cho'gall certainly wasn't a very hard fight IMO, I healed it successfully the second attempt I saw at it. 243 different effects which can be ignored or trivialized isn't harder than 4 different effects which can each individually wipe your raid.
I think the issue that I pointed out with gear still stands, because not only did we not have good gear, but the gear itself had awful stats on it. My Rogue tier 1 set had dodge on it, for Pete's sake!
Eh, the tier gear was bad but the blue dungeon gear was pretty terrible, some even worse. Getting your tier piece with wasted stats on resist and dodged seemed lame until you looked at the trash blue you were replacing and saw it was even worse. Dire maul actually had some nice blues that were arguably better than some MC epics, but it wasn't released until after MC.
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zokudu
Diamond Member
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I still don't really see the problem? That's why you have vent and communicate while in a raid. If the mage gets mind controlled you have your alternate curse remover or you could even dedicate 2 curse removers because at that point its a 2 healer fight. If you wanted to 3 heal it have one of your healers dispel 2 of them each rotation. 404 issue not found.
guyver01
Lifer
- Sep 25, 2000
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So you have your main tank, 1 tank for each add (3 tanks), 2 dispellers, 1 healer for main tank, 1 healer for add tank, or you go 3 healer... and then you have 3 tanks, 2 curse dispellers, and 2 people mind controlled... that doesn't leave anyone to DPS in a 10 man raid. Not sure how you are going to win with your strategy, unless you are just going to rely on tank dps...
Being more generous, assume you can instantly dispel both mind controls (won't always happen because sometimes your only offensive dispels will be the one who get MCed) you have 2 people DPSing, about 50% of the time (can't dps while cursed or runs out of resource), or the equivalent of 1 full time DPS: do you think that will be enough to win the fight before you start running out of mana?
Here is how the fight is intended to actually work, in 40 man MC and in any re-implementation of it.
You split the raid, tank + healer + decurser fight lucifron more or less alone, out of line of sigh of the rest of the raid. Decursing is manageable because only 3 people get cursed, same for the doom. Depending on tuning you might need 2 healers with the maintank, hard to judge really scaling down to 10 from 40 changes a lot of the fight.
The remaining 6-7 should be 2 tanks or 1 tank + a dps who can offtank or a tanking pet, at least 2 offensive dispels (really only choice is shaman or priest) which can also dps, and 1-2 healers, and if there is extra room a misc dps.
Even after the adds are dead you can't just have everyone run in and DPS the boss, as dispelling the curse/doom from the entire raid is very mana trying and while possible it isn't a good way to do the fight. You have the tank healer and dispeller remain close, and melee dps can come in and get dispelled by the tank dispeller, while you keep ranged at max range and -important part- the ranged healer/dispellers can sit outside of curse range, reducing the number of people you need to decurse or dispel down by 2-3.
Note that even with this optimal design, some worst case scenarios can easily cause a wipe. If you have 2 offensive dispels and both are randomly selected as mind control targets at the same time, it's almost a guaranteed wipe. But for the most part if everyone does their job at the correct moment you will finish fine.
This is how such a fight is intended to be done, if you try to do it without using LoS and splitting the raid you will not have enough DPS because of all the time soaked by casting dispels. I know that is probably exactly what raids did in vanilla, after gear trivialized it, but you can't use that strategy and win if the fight is correctly tuned. I mean really, tuning is the only real determination of difficulty. A fight with no variables can still be the hardest fight in the game if it is tuned to require 100% perfect dps rotations and 100% efficient healing. No fight is ever tuned that close of course, original vanilla patchwerk was closest and a lot of the first kills only killed him after he destroyed all the tanks and was busy working through the raid at his last % of hp.
The point is, you can make a technically simpler fight harder and complex fight easier just by adjusting the tuning, and in normal mode cataclysm raids the knob is tuned FAR in the "easy" direction. There are some complex mechanics, but the DPS and healing requirements are very forgiving and outside of the mechanics the fights are trivial.
Vanilla wow was about the opposite at first- mechanics were trivial (although apparently lucifron's mechanics confused you enough that you would have wiped a few times before learning) but the DPS/healing was tuned more strict.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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Off the top of my head, Dire Maul was the second content patch released (Maraudon was the first). I believe that Molten Core was always in the game, but I think no one really ever did it? I know for the longest time, I would just mess around in the game or spend time mucking about Stratholme, Scholomance or Blackrock Spire. I do remember getting my Seal of Eldre'thalas (which I still have) for the fire resistance.
Hmm now I'm trying to think of the patch ordering. There was a bit of a sandwiching in the beginning of PVE and PVP patches. I could easily look it up, but where's the fun in that!
I think it went...Maraudon -> Honor System -> Dire Maul -> WSG -> Zul'Gurub -> BWL -> AV -> AQ -> AB -> Naxx
I think that's right or pretty close as I'm pretty certain BWL was patch 1.6.
zokudu
Diamond Member
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So your assuming they won't scale it down in any way? Thats just flat out stupidity. Imagine it scaled down for 10 man instead of assuming it will work the same as it does with 40 people.
1 Add not 2 so you have 2 tanks. One on Lucifron one on the add. One full time decurser in your mage and 2 healers one for each tank and 1 full time dispeller for the magic debuff. 4 full time dps who also focus on removing the Mind Control because they will not reimplement a stupid mechanic like requiring a priest to remove MCs. Actually communicate on vent and have your tank healers cast a dispel or decurse if either of your dedicated players gets MCed.
There boom fight over simple as pie just stand around and do what your told call out here or there. The only things that are making the fight hard in your mind is not scaling it down to 10 people (stupid) and assuming the MC will only be removable by a priest or shaman again (also stupid). Blizzard would never recreate that fight without making both of those changes and both of those changes make it trivial.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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I think it's also worthwhile to note that some early bosses were hard simply because we had to figure out certain intricate details by ourselves. I recall how trivial the Razorgore the Untamed encounter became once we started using the fireball volley trick (use Razorgore's fireball volley, remove control, all adds go after original controller). This turned an encounter where we had multiple people trying to pick up adds to one rogue that would run around.
Although, I still wonder why Lucifron was chosen out of all bosses, because he wasn't really that hard. The dispelling required a certain level of competency from your raiders, but back then we also had decursive which meant you could do your job with a single button press. Of course, that got nixed probably long before a lot of people got into Molten Bore, but it will still around (as well as out of combat resurrections).
I think that while Lucifron 2.0 could easily trip up players simply because they're not that good or adept at strategies and such, it's not a hard fight to master.
Although, I still wonder why Lucifron was chosen out of all bosses, because he wasn't really that hard. The dispelling required a certain level of competency from your raiders, but back then we also had decursive which meant you could do your job with a single button press. Of course, that got nixed probably long before a lot of people got into Molten Bore, but it will still around (as well as out of combat resurrections).
I think that while Lucifron 2.0 could easily trip up players simply because they're not that good or adept at strategies and such, it's not a hard fight to master.
zokudu
Diamond Member
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Also if you wanted to go and talk damage limits I looked up videos of the fight and most of the kills lasted from 2-2.5 minutes. In order to kill Lucifron and his two adds within that time you need between 140-170 dps if you take 25 dps 3 tanks and 12 healers. Now I am no vanilla expert but to me that sounds manageable I can do that with the fancy new gear and the fancy new talents at level 50 or so. I'm sure that is doable even with the badly itemized gear.
Fact is at the end of the day bad players and little knowledge is what made the dps and healing requirements "tight".
Also now that I'm done ranting about rose colored glasses to answer Aikouka. I see the biggest issue with LFR is figuring out who is doing what. Most of the mechanics are nerfed to the point of only requiring 2 good tanks 2-3 good dps and 3 good healers or so. Take the second boss Warlord Zon'ozz. On 25m Normal his tennis ball thing splits damage amongst all people in an area and you need to split your raid in 2 to deal with it. In the LFR version the damage does not split so you need a good melee dps, a good ranged dps, a good tank, and 3 good healers or so. The rest of your dps can be huge mouthbreathers and still kill him.
But who tells who to do what? Where is the leadership? Once the fight starts and people see whats up it will be fine but setting out orders is going to be a pain.
Fact is at the end of the day bad players and little knowledge is what made the dps and healing requirements "tight".
Also now that I'm done ranting about rose colored glasses to answer Aikouka. I see the biggest issue with LFR is figuring out who is doing what. Most of the mechanics are nerfed to the point of only requiring 2 good tanks 2-3 good dps and 3 good healers or so. Take the second boss Warlord Zon'ozz. On 25m Normal his tennis ball thing splits damage amongst all people in an area and you need to split your raid in 2 to deal with it. In the LFR version the damage does not split so you need a good melee dps, a good ranged dps, a good tank, and 3 good healers or so. The rest of your dps can be huge mouthbreathers and still kill him.
But who tells who to do what? Where is the leadership? Once the fight starts and people see whats up it will be fine but setting out orders is going to be a pain.
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It really doesn't make a bit of difference, you ignored the real point I was making and focused on this instead.
Look, beyond the people gathering and such, raiding is just one big math problem. There is damage coming into the raid, damage going out to the boss and/or adds, and there is healing. Simplistic view, but all in all it's just about the numbers.
Prior to ZG etc where gear inflation made the fight trivial, Lucifron had one key aspect to doing the fight without wiping- you split the raid, so Lucifron only curses or dooms the tank and healers until all adds are delt with.
The math of it looks like this, although numbers are simply made up, the end result remains the same.
Raid needs 3 dps-minutes to kill one add, and 9 dps minutes to kill lucifron.
A tank does half the dps of a dedicated dps.
You do the fight your way (everyone in one group, you do dispels and decurse as effectively as possible).
(simplistic view of the curse is 40% reduction in DPS, reality is with one decurser on average it's closer to 50% and even worse if the decurser favors decursing himself and healers first, but I'll call it 40% just to be generous)
All dps and healing reduced by 40% effectiveness. (because everyone is always in range, this assumes decursing done as efficiently as possible)
You have 2 tanks on adds, 1 tank on boss, 2 healers, 4 dps, 1 decurser (can't ever dps because he must decurse full time).
Your 5 dps (4, plus 2 add tanks) are equal to 3 dps after accounting for the curse, meaning it takes 2 minutes to kill the two adds, and a tiny bit less than 3 more minutes to kill lucifron (since lucifron's tank put out some dps as well).
On the other hand, doing with a split group-
1 tank, healer, and decurser on boss full-time.
2 offtanks on adds, 1 healer, 4 dps. These dps aren't ever cursed, and put out full dps. Both adds are dead after 72 seconds. Additionally, raid doesn't suffer any damage from doom during this time. Time to kill the boss is similar to the previous scenario, but the total time spent doing the encounter is reduced by about a minute.
Note that I ignored the worst of it- you would probably need a 3rd healer or a dedicated dispeller to remove the dooms if your entire raid was in range of lucifron through the fight, so your dps would be even lower for another reason.
The point is, if the encounter is tuned to make it challenging when done correctly, you *can't* succeed with a flawed strategy at all- that loss of a full minutes worth of dps time is going to make the fight impossible.
Anyway, about your point re: tuning it down to 10 man- I don't agree with your logic. first of all, this is a thought experiment- if you start nerfing the difficulty of the fight or dumbing it down by removing adds then you are moving into a completely different question. Second, look at history. 10 man naxx has the 4 horseman, blizzard didn't remove one of them. I'll give you they simplified the marks which made it doable with 4 tanks instead of requiring 8, but based on that history I don't see why they would change lucifron to require fewer than 2-3 tanks. As well, once you start making changes in mechanics to compensate for the smaller raids, you also must assume blizzard will go for tighter tuning and numbers as the 10 man heroic raids have shown- in a 40 man, they assume x% will be slackers or even afk disconnected and the fight should be possible with less than perfect play from everyone, but in a 10 man equivalent all that goes out the window- everyone has to play perfect.
I agree with the first part, but not with the second. You are looking at different raids with multiple variables and not accounting for all of them.
Vanilla to Cataclysm- Raids got more complex (we both agree on this, more or less)
Vanilla to cataclysm- tuning got harder (you say this, I disagree)
40 to 25 or 10 man- tuning made raids harder (this is the real reason)
Reason is pretty simple- if a single DPS does X dps in entry gear and 1.2X DPS in gear after farming a couple weeks, it's pretty obvious that for every 5 farmed DPS you have you can totally carry an afk or baddie. This is always going to be true, but it's less noticeable in a small raid. You have 6 DPS and 1 healer in your small raid, after farming a few weeks you can probably carry 1 baddie along with 5 of your farmed DPS. But in a 40 man raid, with your 25 or 30 DPS, once you have been raiding a few weeks the difference of 1 or two or even 6! players gets lost in the noise as your veterans put out more DPS and pick up for the slack. And needless to say, even without adjusting anything this would instantly be corrected if lucifron was scaled for level 85 10 mans.
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zokudu
Diamond Member
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But they did nerf the four horsemen when they brought them back. Lady Blaumeux and Sir Zeliek do not require tanks in the truest sense of the word. The mechanic is similar but you can use any dps in your raid group to "tank" those two. I don't see why they wouldn't nerf the number of required tanks going from a 10 from a 40 man if they have done it already.
I can agree with the rest of the quote you quoted that it is a lot easier to be lost in the fray of a 40m then a 10m. If one of my raiders is off their game that night we instantly are able to see it. Even in 25m when we did those it was easy to just do the least amount of effort for most of the fights because no one was going to call you out on it.
It is true though tuning the enrage timers is what makes or breaks an encounter. Almost every fight in the game right now has some sort of soft or hard enrage that if you do not beat you wipe on. Blizzard could make every fight harder by just increasing their health. I still do not think 40m are tuned any tighter then current content but we can agree to disagree.
Anyone else seen the new MoP talent calculator. It gives you all your spec abilities as well to see what you're gaining or losing. Few talent changes too they're on MMO-Champ.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mists-of-pandaria/feature/talent-calculator
Last edited:
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
- 30,383
- 912
- 126
I saw the new talent thing and it's interesting. It looks like Word of Glory will not have a cooldown anymore (as Protection), which is nice! It's kind of silly that Death Knight's can heal using their resource (Runes) without a cooldown, but we have one? :|
Ok this may or may not be old news........but that Chuck Norris Wow commercial is funny as hell. Ok that's my contribution for the day. Have a good Thanksgiving!
The new warlock talents have me tempted to do the 1 year renewal. I am currently unsubscribed and I thought I could skip MoP entirely but these changes sound really nice.
The Warlock tree looks awesome. My main has been a Warlock for a long time. I am looking at a 2, 3, 3, 2, 3, 2 or 3 build for destruction.
Did heroic Domo this week, 3/7 for us.
Killed Rag for the 8th time as a guild and still no Conq token for our ten man. It went to the GM's mage so he could put it for an offset.
I seriously dislike the loot situations in 10 man.
Killed Rag for the 8th time as a guild and still no Conq token for our ten man. It went to the GM's mage so he could put it for an offset.
I seriously dislike the loot situations in 10 man.
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