At least five dead in shooting at PA Amish school

[waggy]

Originally posted by: amish
look at you dumbasses arguing about politics. get off your fvcking partisan high horses. this could happen anywhere at anytime. this isn't a red vs blue thing.

agreed.

it disgust me when someone uses something like this to push their political beliefs.. sigh.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: OS
lol, that's really great, most of these shootings are in red states, committed by white men, and someone tries to blame liberals.

Nope, just blaming the ideas and beliefs of the Demorat party. It spreads like an infection.

Dude, you have some serious issues. How about you work them out somewhere else?Seriously, this is even worse than people who blame Bush for everything.

You're right man, I do. I wont deny it.

I'm reallly tired of our beliefs and policies getting children molested, women raped and people killed who are just trying to put food on the table. I'm tired of hearing about criminals who should be hang from the neck getting 6 months jailtime then being free to walk. I'm tired of people having their collective heads up their collective asses and not making the hard decisions when it comes to sentencing and criminals.

Sure, we cant prevent all crime, thats simply unrealistic. And from what it sounds, this is one example where tough laws wouldnt have stopped it. But none the less, I think we'd have a hell of a lot safer country if we'd focus on the problems rather then emotional feel good actions.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: OS
lol, that's really great, most of these shootings are in red states, committed by white men, and someone tries to blame liberals.

Nope, just blaming the ideas and beliefs of the Demorat party. It spreads like an infection.

Dude, you have some serious issues. How about you work them out somewhere else?Seriously, this is even worse than people who blame Bush for everything.

You're right man, I do. I wont deny it.

I'm reallly tired of our beliefs and policies getting children molested, women raped and people killed who are just trying to put food on the table. I'm tired of hearing about criminals who should be hang from the neck getting 6 months jailtime then being free to walk. I'm tired of people having their collective heads up their collective asses and not making the hard decisions when it comes to sentencing and criminals.

Sure, we cant prevent all crime, thats simply unrealistic. And from what it sounds, this is one example where tough laws wouldnt have stopped it. But none the less, I think we'd have a hell of a lot safer country if we'd focus on the problems rather then emotional feel good actions.

Perhaps your newsletter would be better posted in P & N

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Maybe they can use this (And the other incidents) to get CCW passed in the school.

Obviously making schoolsa "Gun free" zone is about the tardest of tard ideas you can come up with.
Strip everyone of weapons, then when something happens lock it down. At that point if the gunman is inside no one can engage him and its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Thank you Brady, you dumb bitch, and all the other gun grabbers.

Give us nationwide CCW and be done with it.

so the solution is gun fights in school ?


imo, people who do this know they are likely to be killed, it's a way to commit suicide. people in that state aren't going to be deterred because there are people with guns in the school.

you might reduce the number of dead per incident, but I doubt you'd reduce the number of incidents, which is what we need to accomplish.

You are exactly correct, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea while we work on the real issues. School shootings aren't an epidemic, they're a symptom of a greater epidemic. We have severe socio-economic issues that need addressing. In the meantime though, let me at least have a fighting chance, and a chance to protect the children you place into my care. I promise to give my life if necessary in an attempt to save them, just don't make me do it with my hands tied.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Maybe they can use this (And the other incidents) to get CCW passed in the school.

Obviously making schoolsa "Gun free" zone is about the tardest of tard ideas you can come up with.
Strip everyone of weapons, then when something happens lock it down. At that point if the gunman is inside no one can engage him and its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Thank you Brady, you dumb bitch, and all the other gun grabbers.

Give us nationwide CCW and be done with it.

so the solution is gun fights in school ?


imo, people who do this know they are likely to be killed, it's a way to commit suicide. people in that state aren't going to be deterred because there are people with guns in the school.

you might reduce the number of dead per incident, but I doubt you'd reduce the number of incidents, which is what we need to accomplish.

Yes, the solution IS gunfights in school. If every teacher was issued a pistol and required to be proficient in it you might not cut down on the number of incidents but you'll damn sure cut down on the number of casualties. Obviously "Gun free" zones are working, so whats your plan? Whats your solution?

The most reasonable is allow faculty to carry. As I said above, the current policies make it a "fish in the barrel" situation. You're stuck in a school and the only guy in the whole place with a gun is the guy intent on doing harm. AND the school is "locked down" so no one can get out.

Thats just pure genius isnt it?

You can never require people to carry, nor can you require them to step into harms way. I agree that you shouldn't prohibit thouse with training and desire from doing their best however.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: keeleysam
Daayyyyyyamn, what is up with all these school shootings?

Someone put forth a theory. Its a stretch, but then again.....

Many people are leaving cities to get away. They come to Colorado or some other state you choose. They bring their warped libtard beliefs and spoiled kids. Kids go crazy, havent been raised properly and pow. You get a school shooting.

People these days cant raise kids. They just dont know how. We are reaping what we sow, thats all. Its sad yes, but maybe parents need to actually RAISE their kids and quit using some hippie libtard "I'm their friend" logic.

As I said, just a theory put forth from elsewhere. Its a stretch, but then again........

'libtard'? I seriously hope you are not suggesting the concept of liberalism has caused this shooting? Becuase that has to be the dumbest thing I've heard this year.

You cheapen the death of many by spouting your ridiculous politics.

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Maybe they can use this (And the other incidents) to get CCW passed in the school.

Obviously making schoolsa "Gun free" zone is about the tardest of tard ideas you can come up with.

Oh yes, of course! We should give people in schools concealed weapons! Then there would be much fewer school shootings. Damn man, why didn't I think of that!

:disgust:

Yes, libtard. Where do you think all of our gun restrictions have come from? Aint the Repugs fella.
And while we're at it, why do you suppose kids do this crap? Because our current culture focuses on one thing. Do you feel good? Self esteem. NO ONE fails in school. As long as you feel good, its ok.
What happened to the days when you werent a ray of light, you werent the best? You were just another Joe, and if you step out of line you get your ass beat on? What happened to the days when you were held responsible for you, and no one is going to hold your hand and make sure nothing bad ever happens? What happened to the days when you werent the best, you werent special?

You can say its all political crap all you want but I ask you, name 1 school shooting that happened 40 years ago. One that happened 30 years ago. One that happened 20 years ago.

We have to face it, our culture is negatively affecting us! Until we realize that maybe this ongoing progressive thinking is HURTING us, this stuff will continue.

I'm not saying winding the clock back 1000 years in our thought processes and culture is the answer, but for damn sure what we're doing now surely isnt either.

And yes, let faculty carry guns. I ask again, whats your solution? Home schooling?

How bout this? Name one that happened in a modern and civilized country but outside of America. You can't, can you, because they don't happen outside America.

Why is this? Lets do a comparison between countries. Teke two with almost exactly the same culture - the USA and the UK. The USA has 4.08 gun homicides per 100000 people, while the UK has 0.12 per 100000. The difference between the two? The USA has more liberal gun laws. Oh yes - that's what 'liberal' means, not 'evil' as you seem to think, but free. Free to do as you wish. In the USA you are free to have a gun if you wish, and as some people think, free to shoot people with it.

Alternative explainations are welcomed. Preferably ones which do not revolve around your view that society itself has gone to hell in a kind of general way

Your analysis is simplistic to a fault. Are gun laws the ONLY difference between the two? If not then your comparison is faulty. If you can control for EVERY other factor first, I'll listen to you. Otherwise it's an unsupported opinion. You're welcome to it, but don't try to use it for a basis of an argument.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: jdini76

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: jdini76

I don't think they hunt. They have Farms and therefore have live stock. And People who are normal don't generaly hunt nowadays. I consider myself normal and I don't hunt.

That's a ridiculous statement. :roll:

I don't hunt.

How is that rediculous?

And what are you saying when you state you don't hunt?

Definition of Normal: 1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

IMO the common person doesn't hunt.

I don't know maybe this forum is comprised of mainly hunters. and I am the minority. I would say that 1% of my friends hunt. maybe 2% at most.

It means that although I do not hunt, I know a lot of "normal" people who do.

EDIT: I think I now understand what you were saying (I saw a later post of your's, but before this response).

This is funny as h3ll: :laugh:

Originally posted by: Citrix
OP change the title of this thread from "5 dead kids at school" to "Hunting is bad, England and Canada are pussies because they dont allow guns, the US has more gun related homocides than any other country"

WTF!!! you morons need to start your own thread about that crap and learn how to keep your posting on topic. :|

Fern

 

[PricklyPete]

What a freak'n shame. I wish I was that guy from that crappy TV show where he would get the headlines of the horrific things people were going to do the next day so that I could beat the crap out of these people. Killing inocent female children should warrant the most brutal punishments posible.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
How bout this? Name one that happened in a modern and civilized country but outside of America. You can't, can you, because they don't happen outside America.

Why is this? Lets do a comparison between countries. Teke two with almost exactly the same culture - the USA and the UK. The USA has 4.08 gun homicides per 100000 people, while the UK has 0.12 per 100000. The difference between the two? The USA has more liberal gun laws. Oh yes - that's what 'liberal' means, not 'evil' as you seem to think, but free. Free to do as you wish. In the USA you are free to have a gun if you wish, and as some people think, free to shoot people with it.

Alternative explainations are welcomed. Preferably ones which do not revolve around your view that society itself has gone to hell in a kind of general way

Canada.

Shall we look at the problems of British yobs and Muslims? Britian is hardly a shining example of personal safety. Sure, they dont have to worry about someone gunning them down, but they have to worry about being knived or beaten with a bat. Crime is crime, to say guns are the problem is ignoring the real issues.

You are so much safer here than in the US. There _are_ weapons around, even guns, especially in London and Manchester - but people don't pull them out with such frequency as they do in the US. And who the hell worries about being beaten with a bat? If someone attacks me with a bat I will throw something at them, or step through the strike and elbow them in the face, but vs a gun I have no chance.

Ah, I see the Britian Brainwashing machine is in full effect.
Well done, you may continue grazing.

I argue that you are safer here in the UK due to less guns. Got any actual arguement against that? Or only pointless insults?

Crime in the US is going steadily down.
Crime in the UK is going steadily rising.

Furthermore the UK and America use different methods for qualifying and reporting crime, skewing the numbers. You also don't account for any other causes like media, socio-economic factors, total population, population density, etc.

 

[getbush]

Teachers carrying guns will never happen for a number of good reasons. It would be best to just have a minimum of one full time armed police officer at the school during the day, and more for larger schools. And honestly what the hell is up with these adults going into schools and doing this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: getbush
Teachers carrying guns will never happen for a number of good reasons. It would be best to just have a minimum of one full time armed police officer at the school during the day, and more for larger schools. And honestly what the hell is up with these adults going into schools and doing this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

If you could list these 'good reasons' I'd be greatly interested, because I've never heard one. I also hope you won't vote no on the tax increases in order to fund your officer program.

I hope you'll understand if I choose to file a lawsuit to attempt to get my right to carry, instead of taking your word for it. From all of the studies I've made I think it's a winnable case; especially with all these cases popping up recently.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Maybe they can use this (And the other incidents) to get CCW passed in the school.

Obviously making schoolsa "Gun free" zone is about the tardest of tard ideas you can come up with.
Strip everyone of weapons, then when something happens lock it down. At that point if the gunman is inside no one can engage him and its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Thank you Brady, you dumb bitch, and all the other gun grabbers.

Give us nationwide CCW and be done with it.

so the solution is gun fights in school ?


imo, people who do this know they are likely to be killed, it's a way to commit suicide. people in that state aren't going to be deterred because there are people with guns in the school.

you might reduce the number of dead per incident, but I doubt you'd reduce the number of incidents, which is what we need to accomplish.

I'm pretty sure he means the truancy/security officer(s) should have a sidearm.

 

[getbush]

I don't really want to argue for or against arming teachers, I haven't looked at it a whole lot. I'm ok with concealed carry in general, we have it here in Michigan and that's fine by me. But in the classroom? I dunno. I think it would be better to have a couple of armed law enforcement officials on the premises instead, who are focused on security. Let the teachers focus on teaching.
We couldn't wear hats in high school and schools have dress codes to minimize distractions. Having a firearms would be pretty distracting in my opinion. And honestly, can you imagine any district here in the US even allowing that?
The liability and insurance implications would be staggering. I'm not arguing for better or worse on that point, that's just the way it is.
Bottom line I think a number of officers on campus, people who are focused and trained in meeting those threats, would be a better solution. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I think it would be a very small percentage of teachers who would actually want to pack heat in a classroom.

 

[Goosemaster]

Some people need to have their guns taken away and have a time out.

This is jsut beyond fvked up.

WTF:|

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: getbush
I don't really want to argue for or against arming teachers, I haven't looked at it a whole lot. I'm ok with concealed carry in general, we have it here in Michigan and that's fine by me. But in the classroom? I dunno. I think it would be better to have a couple of armed law enforcement officials on the premises instead, who are focused on security. Let the teachers focus on teaching.
We couldn't wear hats in high school and schools have dress codes to minimize distractions. Having a firearms would be pretty distracting in my opinion. And honestly, can you imagine any district here in the US even allowing that?
The liability and insurance implications would be staggering. I'm not arguing for better or worse on that point, that's just the way it is.
Bottom line I think a number of officers on campus, people who are focused and trained in meeting those threats, would be a better solution. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I think it would be a very small percentage of teachers who would actually want to pack heat in a classroom.

I agree that very few would want to, and certainly none should ever be made to. Where I get a little irritated is in being told that I can't without a valid argument supporting that choice.

If you want police instead of security you're talking about a LOT of money...at least 40-60k per officer per school. That's a HUGE tax increase to fund. Of course it's better than security because very few minimum wage security officers will have the training or desire to engage in a firefight. Even if you do get police on campus at a ratio of say 1 per 500-750 students (which is the minimum ratio you'd have to keep for adequate coverage) you still have a situation with response times and roles. Most standard officers would not want to enter a 1 on 1 gun fight with an unknown number of assailants. And what if there were 2 or more shooters like in some of the cases? I agree that this idea is better than nothing at all, but still not optimum for someone like me who is completely capable and willing to participate in the security of my classroom and kids.

Having a concealed weaon isn't distracting at all, because it would pretty much never be seen. That's the whole purpose of concealed. Districts allow a balance of what is right and constitutional and what is desired by the citizens. In other words, districts care about what we force them to care about.

I don't see that there would be any liability or insurance needs. We can carry anywhere as it is with no liability beyond ourselves, and no special insurance required. This is because if we're forced to use our sidearm it's legal and we're very likely to escape any repurcussions. The school, so long as they didn't make it a requirement, would have nothing to do with it.

There's two underlying questions.

1. Is it legal/constitutional
2. Is it right

Regardless of peoples stand on number two, number one should be the first focus. It's VERY questionable rather state enacted 'gun-free school zones' violate state firearm rights in the same way that the federal gun-free school zones was struck down as unconstitutional immediately after being enacted. The litmus in Washington is public funding. If something receives public monies it qualifies as a public place and is therefore bound by our state constitutions provisions for right to carry a firearm. Entirely private agencies can, of course, do what they want. But a school is about as public as you can get. Furthermore you get into the whole 'state laws can only expand individual freedoms granted at a federal level, not restrict them' thing. I'm still working through the foundations and case law with my conlaw prof, but so far it really appears that the restriction in Washington state is a constitutional violation.

If it's shown that you cannot legally restrict a persons right to carry a firearm in a school then the second question becomes moot. If you CAN restrict that right, THEN we need open forum of the underlying ethical/moral issues. In my opinion.

 

[Smartazz]

This is really bad, how many people have died this year in school shootings?

 

[getbush]

PoW you make good points, the only one I will bother with is the comment you made about standard officers. I think most "standard" officers would take a little offense to that. Police officers run towards gunfire, not away from it.

Oh and - You make the logical argument against a school's liability in those circumstances. There is however an opposite argument that could be made in court, and that's what it would come down to. I don't see a school winning a wrongful death lawsuit if an innocent were shot by a school representative.

As far as budgets for on campus police, 60k for one officer per 500-750 students is about $80-$120 per student. What is the per student cost right now? Back in my small school days I think it was in the 4-5k range for the year. I think that money could probably be found for safety. I would hope anyway.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: getbush
PoW you make good points, the only one I will bother with is the comment you made about standard officers. I think most "standard" officers would take a little offense to that. Police officers run towards gunfire, not away from it.

I wasn't meaning that they were cowards, but standard procedure is generally secure the area and wait for backup, negotiators, or tactical. If they watch the person come in and pull out a gun, sure they'll engage. But if they're roaming the halls or in the crapper and hear gunshots their priorities are usually to call for help and get as many people as possible to safety. You don't run into a situation without intel.

Yeah, in our litigious society I can see someone trying to blame the school. However, if there can be no law against it for constiutional reasons thn the school has only to note that the teacher was acting as an individual and NOT as an agent of the school. They could require waivers, put policy in place absolving themselves of responsibility, etc. I know that wouldn't stop the idiots that are sue happy, but it's the right way to handle it. The liability for choosing to fire a weapon rests with the individual with their finger on the trigger...100% and absolute.

I would like to think people would pony up the money, but I don't believe they would. Look at Oregon right now. It's like pulling teeth to just keep schools open, never mind getting them safe or useful. If this idea would guarantee the safety of the children I think you'd be able to convince most people to fund it. But there is no guarantee, just a chance. Gambling is for casinos, not school safety.

 

[getbush]

Tactics have changed in school shootings. The wait for backup was the old mentality a la Columbine. They now rush in, like in Montreal a few weeks ago. They eliminate the threat as soon as possible to save lives.

 

[Dacalo]

What's with these fvckers killing innocent kids? If you are going to commit suicide, do us a favor and off yourselves quietly. :|

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: getbush
Tactics have changed in school shootings. The wait for backup was the old mentality a la Columbine. They now rush in, like in Montreal a few weeks ago. They eliminate the threat as soon as possible to save lives.

I can't believe that. I know too many cops. One probable shooter with a handgun, maybe, or if there happen to be 2+ officers on the campus. But no sane officer will rush a room or hallway alone with what may be multiple shooters in unknown locations when it sounds like they have military weapons and all the leo has is 15 rounds of .40.

None of this would have helped these kids of course. Can you really believe that a school that small (even if it weren't Amish) would be able to afford an officer?

 

[getbush]

This will be my last post in this thread. Good luck getting your gun in your classroom and have a nice evening.

 

[Tom]

"Regardless of peoples stand on number two, number one should be the first focus. It's VERY questionable rather state enacted 'gun-free school zones' violate state firearm rights in the same way that the federal gun-free school zones was struck down.."

It wasn't struck down because firearms "rights" can't be restricted/regulated, in fact the reason had nothing to do with guns at all. And the law was reenacted and is the law of the land today.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: getbush
This will be my last post in this thread. Good luck getting your gun in your classroom and have a nice evening.

I hope you weren't offended by anything I said. I was just providing my own opinions/take on the current situation. Certainly wasn't trying to shut anyone out or anything. I greatly value all opinion and debate...

even when it's completely wrong. j/k

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Tom
"Regardless of peoples stand on number two, number one should be the first focus. It's VERY questionable rather state enacted 'gun-free school zones' violate state firearm rights in the same way that the federal gun-free school zones was struck down.."

It wasn't struck down because firearms "rights" can't be restricted/regulated, in fact the reason had nothing to do with guns at all. And the law was reenacted and is the law of the land today.

I take it back. I just rechecked and found the reapplied law signed under clinton. I somehow missed hearing about that.

Guess it's time for a federal case then.

Thanks for the headsup.

***

Ok, I read a little closer, and the new bill is considerably different than the original.

The new version does not affect home schools. It only affects primary and secondary schools, not post-secondary. The new version exempts anyone with a concealed license. While not ideal, neither is it so restrictive as to require immediate action against it.

So in effect, what I said before was accurate - it's the local and state laws which now prohibit concealed carry on school grounds, and not federal law.