[AT] Haswell Refresh comes with improved TIM, unlocked Pentium due mid-2014

[toyota]

.......but the unlocked Pentium should clock a lot higher than the Haswell Core i3.

With that mentioned, how much does the resolution/detail settings factor into CPU utilization? As I recall back when Mantle was released AMD was talking about "draw calls increasing CPU overhead".

If I test a Unlocked Pentium vs. Core i5/i7 quad with a large GPU at high resolution/high detail settings how much difference in CPU utilzation would be seen if comparing to lower resolution/lower detail settings with a smaller GPU?

Maybe the cpu utilzation on the smaller and weaker processor (in this case Unlocked Pentium) will be fine as long as the resolution/detail settings and GPU size are all kept in check.

you keep acting as if overclocking will make any real difference in a game that needs more than 2 cores to play properly anyway. plus the quads have more cache so even at the same clocks just 2 cores of an i5/i7 will be faster. dual cores are NOT going to handle very many modern games smoothly and its only going to get worse going forward.

 

[Idontcare]

Anand's photos of an i7-4950HQ (4C GT3 + eDRAM)

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6993/DSC_0343.jpg

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6993/DSC_0332.jpg

If you break out some tools you can probably get an idea of just how big it is. But it's not a small chip, to say the least.

Nice! Thanks fellas!

 

[jpiniero]

you keep acting as if overclocking will make any real difference in a game that needs more than 2 cores to play properly anyway. plus the quads have more cache so even at the same clocks just 2 cores of an i5/i7 will be faster. dual cores are NOT going to handle very many modern games smoothly and its only going to get worse going forward.

I am a little curious as to how the Pentium would compare to the 750K in modern titles.

 

[blackened23]

I am a little curious as to how the Pentium would compare to the 750K in modern titles.

The Pentium would be faster in everything. PCper versus'ed a 760K (faster than your 750k) and a 3220. 3220 was faster across the board despite having 2 fewer cores, due to Haswell IPC:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/Building-Gaming-PC-1080p-Under-550

 

[blackened23]

you keep acting as if overclocking will make any real difference in a game that needs more than 2 cores to play properly anyway. plus the quads have more cache so even at the same clocks just 2 cores of an i5/i7 will be faster. dual cores are NOT going to handle very many modern games smoothly and its only going to get worse going forward.

Now this just aint true. I have played like 60 games on my HTPC with a dGPU and G3220 and they all play great. Fact of the matter is, nearly all triple A games are GPU limited. If they are GPU limited, they will play pretty much fine on the G3220. I have named specific examples of games that play great on the 3220, your comment is just way off base.

Now some games are CPU limited, this is true, but Haswell has very high IPC which will still give you good gameplay. The main two games that *I* have played which are cpu limited are BF4 and Crysis 3. Cryengine 3 really prefers 4 logical cores, but is perfectly playable with concessions. BF4 plays great in SP, hovered around 45-50 fps in MP. Yes, an i7 would work better in those games. But they are still perfectly playable. Note that this is TWO games out of 60+. Most games are gpu limited and I get framerates near 100 or higher with a 780 which I threw in my HTPC for testing. Non triple A's that rely on CPU play fine as well (from what I have seen) due to IPC.

Heck. Even with a cheesy 750ti at ultra settings 1080p, a G3220 is getting 40 fps or so in BF4:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/Building-Gaming-PC-1080p-Under-550

I assure you, having direct experience with this, that you're not giving the Pentium nearly enough credit. It is a great budget gaming chip. Yes, crysis 3 and BF4 will play better on an i7. But that doesn't mean that the Pentium isn't very capable thanks to Haswell's high IPC.

I'm not saying the pentium is an i3/5/7 replacement. Obviously it isn't. But, context: this is a 60-70$ chip which will LIKELY be used for HTPC. And for that usage and a dGPU? It will game pretty great. I don't use a pentium with my main desktop, but I have been more than impressed by how well the G3220 games on my HTPC. I expect the unlocked pentium will be even better with an overclock.

 

[toyota]

Now this just aint true. I have played like 60 games on my HTPC with a dGPU and G3220 and they all play great. Fact of the matter is, nearly all triple A games are GPU limited. If they are GPU limited, they will play pretty much fine on the G3220. I have named specific examples of games that play great on the 3220, your comment is just way off base.

Now some games are CPU limited, this is true, but Haswell has very high IPC which will still give you good gameplay. The main two games that *I* have played which are cpu limited are BF4 and Crysis 3. Cryengine 3 really prefers 4 logical cores, but is perfectly playable with concessions. BF4 plays great in SP, hovered around 45-50 fps in MP. Yes, an i7 would work better in those games. But they are still perfectly playable. Note that this is TWO games out of 60+. Most games are gpu limited and I get framerates near 100 or higher with a 780 which I threw in my HTPC for testing.

Heck. Even with a cheesy 750ti at ultra settings 1080p, a G3220 is getting 40 fps or so in BF4:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/Building-Gaming-PC-1080p-Under-550

I assure you, having direct experience with this, that you're not giving the Pentium nearly enough credit. It is a great budget gaming chip. Yes, crysis 3 and BF4 will play better on an i7. But that doesn't mean that the Pentium isn't very capable thanks to Haswell's high IPC.

I am simply looking at all the games that were using my 2500k pretty hard. how do you figure a game using 80-90% of an oced 2500k will play with just 2 cores? Daylight, Hitman Absolution, Crysis 3, Crysis 2, Metro Last Light, Company of Heroes 2, Borderlands 2, Witcher 2, Splinter Cell Blacklist, The Bureau XCOM, Thief and many other will eat a dual core for lunch. some of those game are going to hitch and stutter considering they nearly pegged and at sometimes did peg my 2500k.

 

[blackened23]

That's funny because I have played borderlands 2 and witcher 2 on my 3220 with framerates higher than 100. Actually borderlands 2 was pegged at 60 thanks to vsync, at last check the engine is capped at 62 fps. I can double check on that, not sure if that is still the case.

I'll be glad to get some screenshots of Witcher 2 playing at 120+ fps with a G3220 with the dials turned up and ubersampling off.

All of those games play FINE on the pentium G3220. Crysis 3 requires concessions, it is more cpu limited than the rest. All of those other games? Absolutely fine. It's funny you mention Witcher 2. I posted pics of Tomb Raider with a 3220 + 780 at 120 fps earlier. That's actually almost the same speed as my 4770k. Tomb Raider is NOT a CPU limited game at high settings. Neither is Witcher 2. Neither is Borderlands 2 unless you use very high physx settings IIRC.

I do not have Daylight, and I don't have CoH2 to test. All of those other games are fine. Cryengine does prefer 4 logical cores, but it is still playable on dual core.

 

[toyota]

That's funny because I have played borderlands 2 and witcher 2 on my 3220 with framerates higher than 100. Actually borderlands 2 was pegged at 60 thanks to vsync, at last check the engine is capped at 62 fps. I can double check on that, not sure if that is still the case.

I'll be glad to get some screenshots of Witcher 2 playing at 120+ fps with a G3220 with the dials turned up and ubersampling off.

All of those games play FINE on the pentium G3220. Crysis 3 requires concessions, it is more cpu limited than the rest. All of those other games? Absolutely fine. It's funny you mention Tomb Raider and Witcher 2. I posted pics of Tomb Raider with a 3220 + 780 at 120 fps earlier. That's actually almost the same speed as my 4770k. Tomb Raider is NOT a CPU limited game at high settings. Neither is Witcher 2. Neither is Borderlands 2.

well your system must be magical then.

http://www.techspot.com/review/577-borderlands-2-performance/page6.html

http://www.techspot.com/review/405-the-witcher-2-performance/page8.html

I did not mean to say Tomb Raider and had edited that out so you must have quoted me the second I posted that.

 

[Homeles]

Nice! Thanks fellas!

I can't find the full slide deck, even with my institutional access

The paper mentioned in the slide wasn't all that interesting...

 

[blackened23]

Must be. I can get screencaps up later. I assume they used high physx settings in Borderlands 2, and i'm not sure how the 62 fps cap was bypassed. That's what I assume is happening in the Borderlands 2 chart. The Witcher 2 chart doesn't match my experience. I'll get a screen of my settings later this evening. That witcher 2 chart was done well before any GPU optimized drivers came into existence. That game is NOT cpu limited. I can see my CPU usage via afterburner. When the GPU is pegged at 99% and the dual core is not pegged at 99%, the obvious conclusion is, GPU LIMITED. I highly disgagree that Witcher 2 is cpu limited in any form and I don't know what's up with their test. I do see it was tested on June 3 2011. WELL BEFORE any performance drivers were released I assume. Also in BL2, The 62 fps I assume still exists in borderlands 2? I will check tonight. I have not bothered to flip vsync on and off in that game recently but it was 62 fps capped in the past.

Basically, I know what my experience was in these games and I had the afterburner overlay showing me the framerate the entire time. I know the games were smooth with high framerates. Believe it if you want, or argue for the sake of arguing if you want. I can get screenshots later if that sorta thing interests you.

 

[toyota]

Must be. I can get screencaps up later. I assume they used high physx settings in Borderlands 2, and i'm not sure how the 62 fps cap was bypassed. That's what I assume is happening in the Borderlands 2 chart. The Witcher 2 chart doesn't match my experience. I'll get a screen of my settings later this evening. The 62 fps I assume still exists in borderlands 2? I will check tonight. I have not bothered to flip vsync on and off in that game recently but it was 62 fps capped in the past.

Basically, I know what my experience was in these games and I had the afterburner overlay showing me the framerate the entire time. I know the games were smooth with high framerates. Believe it if you want, or argue for the sake of arguing if you want. I can get screenshots later if that sorta thing interests you.

Borderlands 2 is not capped so that shows how much you know about that game. there were plenty of spots where my gpu usage dropped way down and my 2500k had to be oced to 4.4 just to stay above 60 fps in some areas.

 

[blackened23]

Like I said, I assumed there was a 62 fps cap and I never bothered to flip vsync on and off in either BL game. Additionally, i'm quite curious as to how techspot managed to get a UE3 based engine game to be CPU limited. That engine does not in any way shape or form prefer 4 logical cores, every UE3 game that has ever been played by me was IPC bound. I do not think 2k games made significant modifications to the Unreal Engine 3.

UE3 games are all GPU limited. To my knowledge, ALL of them. That's the NATURE of the engine. I could be mistaken on that, but this applies to EVERY UE3 game I know of. Bioshock inf, Batman games, etc etc etc.

edit: Here's what's happening in the techspot test. They're using high physx settings.

WELL NO JOKE, the CPU becomes limited when you crank physx up:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...and-PhysX-Comparison-GTX-680-and-HD-7970/GPU-

Obviously you don't crank physx up with a Pentium G3220. You probably shouldn't even do it on an i5.

Outside of physx as a variable, it is impossible for a UE3 based game to be CPU limited unless you're playing something like 720p. If you know of ANY UE3 based game that is CPU limited without physx as a variable, do let me know. I know that the games that come to MY mind: Batman: AC, origins, Bioshock Inf, among others, these are ALL gpu limited games. In BL2 the physx is creating a CPU limitation. Not the engine or game.

 

[jpiniero]

The Pentium would be faster in everything. PCper versus'ed a 760K (faster than your 750k) and a 3220. 3220 was faster across the board despite having 2 fewer cores, due to Haswell IPC:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/Building-Gaming-PC-1080p-Under-550

Well, I was taking into account overclocking as well, considering you can overclock the 750K/760K. Those numbers at stock are so close on the games that I almost wonder if it was GPU limited; which is tough to believe considering they used a 270. But regardless, it's clear what Intel is really positioning the Pentium against.

 

[toyota]

Like I said, I assumed there was a 62 fps cap and I never bothered to flip vsync on and off in either BL game. Additionally, i'm quite curious as to how techspot managed to get a UE3 based engine game to be CPU limited. That engine does not in any way shape or form prefer 4 logical cores, every UE3 game that has ever been played by me was IPC bound. I do not think 2k games made significant modifications to the Unreal Engine 3.

UE3 games are all GPU limited. To my knowledge, ALL of them. That's the NATURE of the engine. I could be mistaken on that, but this applies to EVERY UE3 game I know of. Bioshock inf, Batman games, etc etc etc.

edit: Here's what's happening in the techspot test. They're using high physx settings.

WELL NO JOKE, the CPU becomes limited when you crank physx up:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...and-PhysX-Comparison-GTX-680-and-HD-7970/GPU-

Obviously you don't crank physx up with a Pentium G3220. You probably shouldn't even do it on an i5.

Outside of physx as a variable, it is impossible for a UE3 based game to be CPU limited unless you're playing something like 720p. If you know of ANY UE3 based game that is CPU limited without physx as a variable, do let me know. I know that the games that come to MY mind: Batman: AC, origins, Bioshock Inf, among others, these are ALL gpu limited games. In BL2 the physx is creating a CPU limitation. Not the engine or game.

UE 3 and even UE 2.5 can be pretty cpu intensive.

SC Blacklist eats dual cores for breakfast. http://www.techspot.com/review/706-splinter-cell-blacklist-benchmarks/page5.html

and have you not seen Thief? http://www.techspot.com/review/787-thief-benchmarks/page4.html

 

[blackened23]

UE 3 and even UE 2.5 can be pretty cpu intensive.

SC Blacklist eats dual cores for breakfast. http://www.techspot.com/review/706-splinter-cell-blacklist-benchmarks/page5.html

and have you not seen Thief? http://www.techspot.com/review/787-thief-benchmarks/page4.html

I am not sure about Blacklist. As far as thief goes, I do see an i3 beating the FX8350 there, so i'm inclined to think that IPC would trump everything for that game. With that being the case, I see the G3220 doing just fine in Thief.

Toyota, with all due respect, I have played a ton of games on the G3220. You can believe that if you want, but I was *looking* for games to be unplayable. What I FOUND was the exact opposite. All of the games I tried, played absolutely great. They really did. I really feel like you're not giving the G3220 nearly enough credit. The IPC really does boost it in IPC bound games like Thief. Heck, the fact that the i3 beat the 8350 should be a testament to that. I know BL2 and Witcher 2 played great on the 3220 + 780. I will get screenshots up later if you're interested, but basically, you are just not giving the Pentium enough credit. No, it isn't an i5. It isn't an i7. But what it is, is a great budget gaming chip. It really is. Like I said I was specifically looking for games to drag it into the mud which was what I expected but that just didn't happen. In fact a lot of games are close in speed to my desktop 4770k, obviously those are gpu bound games.

Now like I said, certain engines prefer 4 logical cores. You can make those run fine with concessions. Cryengine 3 is the biggest one. Bf4 as well. But to say that the dual core pentium just can't game worth a heck, which is the impression I got from you, that just isn't true dude. It does game very well. And the context is a 60$ chip. I was quite impressed with it.

Anyway, I will show you the settings for Witcher 2 and BL2 and try to get some screenshots up later. I wish Witcher 2 had a built in benchmark. That game plays REALLY REALLY well on the g3220 with dGPU.

 

[cbn]

SC Blacklist eats dual cores for breakfast. http://www.techspot.com/review/706-splinter-cell-blacklist-benchmarks/page5.html

Only if they are very old stock clocked AMD dual cores.

.....and the Ivy Bridge Core i3 dual core actually beats the Ivy Bridge Core i5 quad core used in the comparison.

 

[toyota]

1 fps is margin of error. the point is the game does need more than just 2 cores to keep the framerate up and or keep the game smooth. I tried playing it with only 2 cores and it was pretty choppy even when the framerate was ok. panning around was no where near as smooth as as with 4 cores.

 

[cbn]

the point is the game does need more than just 2 cores to keep the framerate up

This is not true either.

If you look at the bottom of the graph the quad core Athlon II x4 640 (21 FPS) is also failing to keep a minimum frame rate up.

In fact, the quad core Athlon II x 4 640 is actually slower than the dual core Phenom II x2 570 (22 FPS).

Now granted, I can see some trend in quad core being slightly faster over dual core by comparing Athlon II x4 640 (21 FPS) vs. Athlon II x2 265 (18 FPS).......but I am not impressed by the quad core scaling in this game.

This is a game that favors IPC and frequency rather than quad core over dual core.

 

[toyota]

no it needs BOTH good IPC AND more than 2 cores to keep framerate up and be smooth. again I just tested the game and told you its choppy just panning around with just 2 cores. thats because they are pegged the whole time. and min framerate in my testing is 50% higher using 4 cores opposed to just 2.

 

[USER8000]

The Pentium would be faster in everything. PCper versus'ed a 760K (faster than your 750k) and a 3220. 3220 was faster across the board despite having 2 fewer cores, due to Haswell IPC:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/Building-Gaming-PC-1080p-Under-550

In reality, there is little difference between the performance of these two machines.

All games run at 1920x1080 at highest in-game image quality settings
As you can see in our graphics performance tests, both of these systems will provide you with a similar experience when it comes to gaming. The Intel has a 1-2 FPS advantage, but that is unlikely to be noticed.

An R9 270 was used not a GTX750TI,but also remember AMD drivers tend to push a more lightly threaded load than their Nvidia counterpart too.

The FPS difference is within the margin or error.What will be more interesting is to see the latency figures.NTMBK,actually touched on that with an earlier The Tech Report review.

I certainly noticed my Core i3 struggling with Crysis3 online,but not the Core i5 which replaced it.

I just get the impression a Pentium dual core will not have any legs within the next two years the way things are going compared to a Core i3 or FX6300. The E8400 did not outlive the Q6600,and neither did the G6950 outlive the Core i3 530. Maybe,overclocking can help,but we need to wait and see when the reviews hit. I would rather a Core i3 K series CPU was released.

OTH,Intel is quite aware that it would affect Core i5 sales for DIY builds in many countries,so their product segmentation strikes again!!

 

[cbn]

no it needs BOTH good IPC AND more than 2 cores to keep framerate up and be smooth. again I just tested the game and told you its choppy just panning around with just 2 cores. thats because they are pegged the whole time. and min framerate in my testing is 50% higher using 4 cores opposed to just 2.

Just looking at the Splinter Cell Blacklist chart, I just can't imagine an overclocked Pentium dual core providing anything but a very good frame rate.

Even a lowly 3.3 Ghz Ivy Bridge Core i3 gave 72 FPS.

Now as far as your comments regarding your game being choppy with 2C/2TC, I believe you but I only wish we had more data (A video, screenshots, what cores and clocks were being used, etc)

As far as your claim of 50% better minimums with quad core over dual core, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt on that. (re: While it is true both the Core i3 dual core beats the Core i5 in frame rates (just barely, but it still does it), and the Phenom II x2 beats the Athlon II x4.....I can't figure out how Tech spot get such a high FPS for the Phenom II x4 980)

 

[toyota]

in Thief the min framerate with 2 cores was 38 fps and with 4 cores it was 58 fps. again though framerates dont tell the whole story. Thief was not acceptable even with 60 fps on 2 cores because of more hitching. when cpu is maxed what else can it do but hitch a bit? just image if your browser or something else needs a few percentage of your cpu but you have nothing to give.

I will install Blacklist and check it out on 2 cores.

 

[StinkyPinky]

All this talk on a budget CPU. IMO I would never want to play a modern AAA title with a 2 core CPU regardless of clock speeds, but to each their own.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Can't speak for Witcher 2, because I only played that after I got an i5, but I did play BL2 at 1440 x 900 on a dual core, and an old one at that, an E4500. Played perfectly fine for me with physX off or minimum, whatever they call the lowest setting. Think I was gettng around 35 to 40 FPS with a pretty crappy gpu as well. I dont know what that Techspot article was doing, but in my experience BL2 is not that demanding of *either* cpu or gpu.

I do admit though that I am not as demanding as some users, and 40ish FPS is perfectly fine for me.

 

[cbn]

cheapest Z87 board newegg have is around $30-40 more than the cheapest H81 board, if you don't use the extra features it would be an extra cost just to OC the CPU, also it would be enough to buy some i3 if you go with H81.

Sale prices might narrow that gap.

Example, currently there is a MSI Z87 for $62.24 After rebate and promo code with Free shipping ---> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130695