[AT] Haswell Refresh comes with improved TIM, unlocked Pentium due mid-2014

[crashtech]

Yes and no. There is a separate die, it's just eDRAM. The CPU die still contains the GPU as usual.

Thanks for correcting me on that. I knew there was a separate something, and I assumed it was the GPU. At any rate, I don't think it will all fit under the LGA1150 lid.

 

[Idontcare]

Thanks for correcting me on that. I knew there was a separate something, and I assumed it was the GPU. At any rate, I don't think it will all fit under the LGA1150 lid.

Its a dual-core chip though, doesn't that make the die size a bit smaller? Small enough perhaps to accommodate the 128MB eDram chip alongside?

 

[toyota]

If these new Pentium chips hit around 4.5GHz at default voltage I'll likely pick up one and pair it with a Geforce 750TI for a low power steam/htpc rig. I'm guessing the minimum framerates will suffer in some cases but I'm fairly confident at 4.5 Ghz there's enough headroom to make up for lack of cores and cache.

my 2500k at 4.4 was seeing 80-90% usage or more in many games and in Crysis 3 was pegged at times. I was also 100% cpu limited in some spots of Hitman Absolution dropping me even into the 40s at times. and thats if nothing else was running as you know even the browser could be using 5% or more at times on a quad core. a dual core cpu for gaming at this point is beyond stupid.

 

[cbn]

a dual core cpu for gaming at this point is beyond stupid.

Can we really say this is true if the clock speed is high enough?

Stupid is pretty strong language. (especially considering the costs involved.)

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a 4.5 Ghz Haswell dual core has nearly the same multi-threaded performance as a stock clocked AMD A10 quad core.

 

[toyota]

Can we really say this is true if the clock speed is high enough?

Stupid is pretty strong language. (especially considering the costs involved.)

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a 4.5 Ghz Haswell dual core has nearly the same multi-threaded performance as a stock clocked AMD A10 quad core.

did you even read the rest of my post? how much clearer does it need to be that if an oced 2500k is getting over 80-90% usage and even pegged at times in some games that using half the cpu power and with less cache is going to be STUPID for modern gaming.

 

[Homeles]

Its a dual-core chip though, doesn't that make the die size a bit smaller? Small enough perhaps to accommodate the 128MB eDram chip alongside?

According to Anand, 2C+GT3 is ~181mm2, while the eDRAM is 77mm2 (Intel's figure).

 

[cbn]

If these new Pentium chips hit around 4.5GHz at default voltage I'll likely pick up one and pair it with a Geforce 750TI for a low power steam/htpc rig. I'm guessing the minimum framerates will suffer in some cases but I'm fairly confident at 4.5 Ghz there's enough headroom to make up for lack of cores and cache

my 2500k at 4.4 was seeing 80-90% usage or more in many games and in Crysis 3 was pegged at times. I was also 100% cpu limited in some spots of Hitman Absolution dropping me even into the 40s at times. and thats if nothing else was running as you know even the browser could be using 5% or more at times on a quad core. a dual core cpu for gaming at this point is beyond stupid.

Can we really say this is true if the clock speed is high enough?

Stupid is pretty strong language. (especially considering the costs involved.)

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a 4.5 Ghz Haswell dual core has nearly the same multi-threaded performance as a stock clocked AMD A10 quad core.

did you even read the rest of my post? how much clearer does it need to be that if an oced 2500k is getting over 80-90% usage and even pegged at times in some games that using half the cpu power and with less cache is going to be STUPID for modern gaming.

At least two points/questions I can think of:

1. How extreme are these examples of a Core i5 @ 4.4 Ghz being pegged in games?

2. OC Core i5 processor is going to be a lot more expensive than a OC Pentium. (Eg, not only is a OC Core i5 chip so much more expensive, but it also likely requires a Tower Cooler and stronger motherboard). This is something that needs to be considered in the anaylysis before rendering a decision.

So I ask you to factor in the price of the processor/platform vs. the extremeness of the examples you are using. For some extreme gamers I am sure having all the latest OC gear will make a difference. However, I really question if the average guy (on a budget) needs anything beyond OC Pentium or A10 quad core for "modern games".

 

[toyota]

At least two points/questions I can think of:

1. How extreme are these examples of a Core i5 @ 4.4 Ghz being pegged in games?

2. OC Core i5 processor is going to be a lot more expensive than a OC Pentium. (Eg, not only is a OC Core i5 chip so much more expensive, but it also likely requires a Tower Cooler and stronger motherboard). This is something that needs to be considered in the anaylysis before rendering a decision.

So I ask you to factor in the price of the processor/platform vs. the extremeness of the examples you are using. For some extreme gamers I am sure having all the latest OC gear will make a difference. However, I really question if the average guy (on a budget) needs anything beyond OC Pentium or A10 quad core for "modern games".

how many games does it take? and games are only going to get more cpu intensive. price/performance is irrelevant if what you are buying is not sufficient to meet your needs. being fully cpu limited is not just a simple drop in framerates. it disruptes the game and with a dual core you are going to be looking at some pretty sever stuttering at times. buying an aftermarket cooler and a Z97 board just to oc a dual core cpu for gaming in 2014 is about the dumbest I have heard in a looooong time.

 

[cbn]

how many games does it take? and games are only going to get more cpu intensive. price/performance is irrelevant if what you are buying is not sufficient to meet your needs. being fully cpu limited is not just a simple drop in framerates. it disruptes the game and with a dual core you are going to be looking at some pretty sever stuttering at times.

Are there really that many games where the level of performance I am referring to (OC Pentium or stock A10 quad core) is a serious problem?

For example, even looking at this example in the quote below, I would say the results are quite good considering how extreme the example is.

Results for a 2C/2T at 4.5GHz in BF4 64-man Siege of Shanghai on Ultra.

This portion was in the bay and the tower's wreckage.

Now granted there is a very low mininum FPS for CPU and a dip below 30ms (which translates to slightly below 30 FPS), but look at the frequency at which this is happening? (99.87% of time FPS is actually over 30 FPS). I would consider this very playable for a budget set-up.

buying an aftermarket cooler and a Z97 board just to oc a dual core cpu for gaming in 2014 is about the dumbest I have heard in a looooong time.

I agree paying for a Z97 board is a hard pill to swallow (Z97 starts @ $100 on Newegg), but an OC Pentium should not require much of a cooler.

With that mentioned, I would like Intel to release the next Unlocked Pentium as BGA (if they decide not to give us Non-Z OC on the entry level LGA boards).

 

[BFG10K]

Dual-core is still viable in lower end builds providing it's Haswell with a high clock and has HT.

This new part doesn't appear to have HT however, so I'd give it a miss.

 

[crashtech]

Its a dual-core chip though, doesn't that make the die size a bit smaller? Small enough perhaps to accommodate the 128MB eDram chip alongside?

All I've seen of Iris Pro looks like this:

Granted, that pic is of the 4770R, but I don't think the 2C die saves a significant amount of room compared to what now understand is the eDRAM.

 

[cbn]

All I've seen of Iris Pro looks like this:

Granted, that pic is of the 4770R, but I don't think the 2C die saves a significant amount of room compared to what now understand is the eDRAM.

According the chart in following article, two Ivy Bridge cores (and their cache) take up ~ 40mm2 die size.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5876/the-rest-of-the-ivy-bridge-die-sizes

I am thinking the difference between 4C and 2C Haswell might be similar. (Although I have no idea if this would be enough savings for what you are referring to)

 

[Idontcare]

According to Anand, 2C+GT3 is ~181mm2, while the eDRAM is 77mm2 (Intel's figure).

Dang, that big huh? Yeah, nevermind, Intel's big core chips really eat up a lot of silicon real-estate.

They need to 3D stack that sucker, eDram on top of the CPU so the CPU still gets maximal thermal conduction through the substrate to the IHS.

 

[ViRGE]

Is it that big? I thought it was tiny, but admit it has been a while since I looked at one.

Anand's photos of an i7-4950HQ (4C GT3 + eDRAM)

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6993/DSC_0343.jpg

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6993/DSC_0332.jpg

If you break out some tools you can probably get an idea of just how big it is. But it's not a small chip, to say the least.

 

[AtenRa]

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a 4.5 Ghz Haswell dual core has nearly the same multi-threaded performance as a stock clocked AMD A10 quad core.

Depends on the app but let me give you an example of Pov-Ray so you know what performance to expect more or less.

Time to finish, less is better

Kaveri A10-7700K = 9min, 22secs
Core i3 4330 = 10min
Core i7 3770K @ 4.44GHz with only 2C2T = 11min, 18secs

edit: Cinebench R15 (MT)

Kaveri A10-7700K = 307cb
Core i3 4330 = 354cb
Core i7 3770K @ 4.44GHz with only 2C2T = 318cb

Heh, Ivy 2C2T @ 4.44GHz faster in Cinebench R15

 

[Homeles]

Dang, that big huh? Yeah, nevermind, Intel's big core chips really eat up a lot of silicon real-estate.

They need to 3D stack that sucker, eDram on top of the CPU so the CPU still gets maximal thermal conduction through the substrate to the IHS.

 

[Rezist]

These new pentiums will likely need the Z boards to overclock anyways, and you'll probably want a cheap aftermarket cooler to go with it. Seems not worth the hassle to save 120$ on probably a 800-900$ machine.

 

[Atreidin]

Unlocked Pentium sounds like a fun idea but overall feels mostly pointless. If they removed their artificial overclocking restrictions on cheap chipsets it would feel slightly less pointless. I agree with other comments, just release an unlocked i3.

 

[blackened23]

How do you figure? There are Z97 motherboards starting at 99$. You're getting fewer SATA6G ports and fewer USB ports, but when you're paying 60$ for a CPU what do you expect to pair it with. You're not going to pair it with an Asus 300$ Republic of Gamers monstrosity. If you buy a budget CPU , you're going to get a budget motherboard. And the fact of the matter is, there are high quality and lower cost Z97 motherboards. The higher the motherboard price gets you SLI, CF, more USB3, more SATA ports, SATA express, thunderbolt, and all that sort of thing. But if you want a budget motherboard, you can get a budget motherboard that will overclock just fine.

JJ from Asus mentioned this on the pcper podcast, but no matter what motherboard you buy, they will overclock equally well or reasonably close to each other. Silicon is the limiting factor, not the motherboard. In fact, Hasewll overclocking on the 140$ Z97-A is similar to that of the highest end Z97-deluxe motherboard which costs 400$. Exact same 4770k overclocks, he even mentioned this. This applies to all brands. If you get a Z97 motherboard that is 130$ or 250$ you get the same overclock or within 100mhz or so, silicon is the true limiting factor. You do not need an expensive motherboard, period.

What you are paying for with premium motherboards is either bling or more features. More ports. More thunderbolt. SLI. CF. That sort of thing. These are things that people buying a 60$ CPU do not need. So even if you need Z97 for pentium overclocking, I don't see the issue. There are 99$ Z97 motherboards from ASrock now that will do the job just fine. And there are many other similarly good budget motherboards from 99 to 130$ which will do the overclocking thing just fine. In fact, I see tons of Z97 motherboards in the 100-130$ range. It is not expensive. To me that doesn't seem incredibly unreasonable. Motherboards supporting overclocking always seem to be in the 100$+ range and like I said you don't need a 150 or 250$ motherboard to get what you want here.

Granted, it would be more ideal for there to be H91 type chipset motherboards that are a little cheaper. But there again you're paying less for even fewer features than the 100$ Z97 boards. I mean, while I don't see the 100$ Z97 boards as "expensive", I wouldn't disagree that an H91 board at 70$ would be even better. (H91 isn't out yet, i'm not sure if there will be an H91 actually). But it's just another situation of paying less to get even less. I don't know.

 

[SPBHM]

cheapest Z87 board newegg have is around $30-40 more than the cheapest H81 board, if you don't use the extra features it would be an extra cost just to OC the CPU, also it would be enough to buy some i3 if you go with H81.

 

[AtenRa]

cheapest Z87 board newegg have is around $30-40 more than the cheapest H81 board, if you don't use the extra features it would be an extra cost just to OC the CPU, also it would be enough to buy some i3 if you go with H81.

Add the extra price for the Cooler and you end up paying more than B87 + Core i3. You may even be close to H81 + Cheap Core i5 territory.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The only case is it could be very attractive is if you play mainly a lot of older highly single or dual threaded games (or use mainly ST apps). Maybe something like World of Tanks, seem to recall from game.gpu that is very single threaded. Maybe some others, like DOTA, LOL, Blizzard games? So depending on your gaming interests/workloads, I guess there could be a place for it, but personally I would rather go for the more well rounded i3. After all, it is not like the i3 is a slouch in ST performance either.

 

[Vesku]

Some of us have CPU coolers lying around. Hyper 212 should be good enough to max out a dual core. Now do I get the cheapest Z87 I can find or get a ~$125 decently featured Z97 with the idea that I can pop in a Broadwell-K later?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Not that I necessarily plan on getting the unlocked Pentium, but if I did, I could put my old nh-d14 on it. Might have to scrounge up the mounting hardware but whatever. That should be more than enough to top out a chip like that.

You buy a CPU, and it goes out-of-date eventually. You buy a good HSF, and it just keeps paying for itself.

 

[cbn]

Dual-core is still viable in lower end builds providing it's Haswell with a high clock and has HT.

This new part doesn't appear to have HT however, so I'd give it a miss.

.......but the unlocked Pentium should clock a lot higher than the Haswell Core i3.

With that mentioned, how much does the resolution/detail settings factor into CPU utilization? As I recall back when Mantle was released AMD was talking about "draw calls increasing CPU overhead".

If I test a Unlocked Pentium vs. Core i5/i7 quad with a large GPU at high resolution/high detail settings how much difference in CPU utilzation would be seen if comparing to lower resolution/lower detail settings with a smaller GPU?

Maybe the cpu utilzation on the smaller and weaker processor (in this case Unlocked Pentium) will be fine as long as the resolution/detail settings and GPU size are all kept in check.