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As Israel ticks ever closer to 9/20/2011

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the General Assembly can grant statehood regardless of US veto.
http://untreaty.un.org/cod/avl/ha/ufp/ufp.html

wrong!!! ----- http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...947-avoiding-a-us-veto-on-a-palestinian-state


Avoiding a US veto on a Palestinian state

By Anne Penketh - 09/15/11 06:42 PM ET


So it’s official. The Palestinians are going to the U.N. Security Council next week to seek full membership of the United Nations for a Palestinian state.

They know they will face a U.S. veto and will have to take their case to the U.N. General Assembly, which cannot grant statehood. The 192-nation General Assembly would have to consider upgrading the Palestinians’ representation from an “entity” to a “non-member state” — a measure certain to be approved.
 
Well when there is an official Palestinian state (and I think there should be one) Israel will have every right to retaliate if the rockets keep coming right? Or will the usual folks still bitch and moan about Israel actually having the audacity to defend itself.
Is that really a question? By definition there is nothing that Israel can do right in the eyes of the UN or the "International Community."🙄
 
Meanwhile Obama and the USA busily pretend, they can veto a Palestinian State without isolating themselves and paying a huge price.

If nothing else, I tend to feel its long past high time, that the UN as a whole demand a total Israeli settlement freeze and make it retroactive to boot. Which at least might buy more time to get the whole Israeli Palestinian dispute settled with a timetable.

What price? Who is going to isolate the USA and what price are they going to pay?

I'm not sure the settlements are the big sticking point. I think that's more something that Israel does to piss off the Palestinians and force them to negotiate before "it's too late".

Where do the Palestinians stand on the right of return? Also what do they plan on doing about Jerusalem? I don't think the Palestinians will ever get a piece of it. I'm more for it becoming an international city but I don't think the Israelis will go for that either. Are they really thinking that they can declare a state with Jerusalem as its capital?

I think it's going to be a disappointing day for the Palestinians. At best it's a PR stunt. They already sit in at the UN. Nothing for them will change. They have to negotiate.
 
Is that really a question? By definition there is nothing that Israel can do right in the eyes of the UN or the "International Community."🙄
😵 As long as Israel maintains a military occupation and colonisation of lands beyond its territorial state it is, in certainty, doing wrong in the lines of law.

These threads are quite predicatable with Israeli propogandists chiming in with inane comments upon the lines that Israel is "doing right" and the only issue of concern is that of Israeli state security -- the instigation of continued criminal Israeli aggression is to be ignored for the propoganda purpose of manufactured deceipt. :thumbsdown:

Israel unilaterally declared statehood without negotations with is neighbours. Palestine has its right to sovereignty and independance too.
 
Dear OP, what huge price will the US pay for a veto?
Hopefully it will be fairly alone with its veto for a justified statehood.

Political and diplomatic damage for the USA in this region with long be remembered adn damning. Influence has already been lost the recent revolutions and change in fairly subserviant governments, this will incease such losses from populations who will readily retain opposition to future US desires.

It will be a diplomatic PR victory in terms of morality for Palestinians and equally damning for those who oppose.

Expect the loss for state status at the Security Council to be followed in later months with a greater than 2/3 General Assembly affirmation for upgrading the current PLO observer status to a more influential and participatory membership for the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is losing its position of strength. Its military enforced "facts on the ground"" -- criminal colonisation, subjugation, and occupation -- will have lesser influence in future negotiations of borders, let alone Israeli demands for a 'demilitarised' Palestine (no Palestinian armed forces while the contined occupation by the IDF) will lose their relative power of bargaining strength.
 
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What price ?

Continue paying huge military support to israel to start with. 2-3 billion usd per year
Continue paying the logistics price of keeping military in the region ... Billions of usd
Continue paying support money to new dic.. Leaders of the countries in the region .... Billions

The list continues
 
Dear OP, what huge price will the US pay for a veto?
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When the Arabs have the oil and US diplomats are persona nongrata in the mid-east, maybe you will finally figure it out. Meanwhile the Russians, the Indians, and the Chinese, are salvating to replace all US influence in the mid-east. And the rest of the world for that matter. Nor can the US lead Nato if even outr friendss balk. nations balk.
 
😵 As long as Israel maintains a military occupation and colonisation of lands beyond its territorial state it is, in certainty, doing wrong in the lines of law.

These threads are quite predicatable with Israeli propogandists chiming in with inane comments upon the lines that Israel is "doing right" and the only issue of concern is that of Israeli state security -- the instigation of continued criminal Israeli aggression is to be ignored for the propoganda purpose of manufactured deceipt. :thumbsdown:

Israel unilaterally declared statehood without negotations with is neighbours. Palestine has its right to sovereignty and independance too.

😵 As long as Palestine maintains a military build-up and bombing of lands beyond its territorial state it is, in certainty, doing wrong in the lines of law.

These threads are quite predictable with Palestinian propagandists chiming in with inane comments upon the lines that Palestine is "doing right" and the only issue of concern is that of Palestinian sovereignty -- the instigation of continued criminal Palestinian aggression is to be ignored for the propaganda purpose of manufactured deceit. :thumbsdown:

😀


You going to try to actually tackle the fundamental issues at play with all sides next time? Of course not 😛
 
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When the Arabs have the oil and US diplomats are persona nongrata in the mid-east, maybe you will finally figure it out. Meanwhile the Russians, the Indians, and the Chinese, are salvating to replace all US influence in the mid-east. And the rest of the world for that matter. Nor can the US lead Nato if even outr friendss balk. nations balk.

Are you saying your full support of Palestine over Israel is for oil rights? That all your concerns for human rights are superficial? That if the Arab world did not have oil you would not be so dedicated to this conflict?
 
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When the Arabs have the oil and US diplomats are persona nongrata in the mid-east, maybe you will finally figure it out. Meanwhile the Russians, the Indians, and the Chinese, are salvating to replace all US influence in the mid-east. And the rest of the world for that matter. Nor can the US lead Nato if even outr friendss balk. nations balk.

more predictions based on the mushrooms that you use??
 
Israel unilaterally declared statehood without negotations with is neighbours. Palestine has its right to sovereignty and independance too.

Show me where Israel declared statehood......

Israel was given the land that they occupy and have fought to defend!
 
cubby1223, your are one of the prime ideologue residents here. I am quite aware that there is little chance of you to recognise rational sense, but for other viewers it bears repeating that the prime instigator of destabilising issues are of continued Israeli occupation and expansion. Rather than any plausible settlement, the state of Israel has a strategic desire to maintain the status quo with a divided and weakened Palestinian presence all to acquiesce its continued criminal expansion and ethnic cleansing.

The Palestinian Authority is conducting a unilaterally peaceful, diplomatic, and just way forward with the advocation of civil disobedience in their occupied land against the aggressors, in combination with a route to achieve a semblance of state sovereignty and a gained UN seat to lobby for criminal charges and further condemnation against Israel expansionist actions.




Israeli action outside of its state borders fail a moral stiff test. A charged language is apt as the accurate parallels with history are damning indictments of Israeli state action:
  • As Germany of the past, Israel has a state policy of lebensraum. Ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.
  • Israel has long implemented policies akin to apartheid with militarily enforced separate areas and separate laws in the West Bank. Palestinians are subverted in favour of Israeli while only those Israeli colonists, rather than their subjugated Palestinian neighbours, are granted a political say upon state policy by Israel.
Condemnation upon Israel is not warranted out of its simply existence nor the presence of Jews, but of that state's extra-territorial criminal policies and actions. So, also please avoid a the expected trivial misrepresentation for no peace being achievalbe simply that due to hate for Jews or that myself, a Jew, gets-off "Jew-baiting" by presenting comparisons to a convicted Germany... 🙄

If those in rabid and absolute defence of Israel will again likely cry with hyperbole over such applicable language, then I call for a new tact. Try avoiding the familiar arguments into ad nauseum and Special Olympics style of attacks against internet messengers, and to contructively put an end to the likes of my vile language upon Israel. You can accomplish this via turning to a rationale course of action by pressuring Israel to cease its condemnable actions.

That such aggression in favour of Israeli Zionist is antagonistic ought ought to be fully reasonable to every honest witness. Do such high crimes warrant crimes of humanity attacks upon Israeli civilians? No. Yet those actions represent a minority of belligerents and most certainly do not give a pass to the continued and disproportionately greater instigating crimes by Israel.
 
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Show me where Israel declared statehood......

You are an absolute advocate of a state and Zionist expansionist cause that you apparently have no foundation for its history? 😵

All to easy to oblige your dour lack of information, sir:

WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel".

An interesting analysis from the CBC:

Israel and its allies argue, for example, that Abbas’s government has entered into a partnership with terrorists by signing an accord with Hamas, which continues its violent opposition to Israel from within the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians and their supporters counter that when David Ben Gurion formed the first Israeli government in 1948, it either absorbed or granted amnesty to Jewish extremist groups like Irgun and the Stern Gang, which had bombed and attacked soldiers and civilians alike.

In fact, one year before Israel was admitted to the UN, the UN special envoy to the region, Folke Bernadotte, was assassinated by the Stern Gang, which regarded him as a threat to Israel’s interests. The hit was co-ordered by Yitzhak Shamir, who later became prime minister of Israel. No one was ever charged with the killing. Israel later conceived a military decoration dedicated to the Stern militants.

One suspects that if Palestinian extremists assassinated former British prime minister Tony Blair, the current UN envoy, and Abbas not only failed to arrest the killers, but absorbed them or pardoned them, any chance of member state status would immediately evaporate.

In fact, the power of Abbas’s strategy lies in the fact that he and his team are actually doing what the world has been asking the Palestinians to do for decades: working within the framework of international law and institutions.

He’s been crisscrossing the globe, seeking and receiving support. Practically all of Latin America has pledged its support. The Israelis themselves concede any General Assembly vote will likely pass.

The United States, meanwhile, has been placed in the uncomfortable position of threatening to use its veto at the Security Council, alone if necessary, to thwart any Palestinian bid for full member status. (The General Assembly, without Security Council support, can only grant non-voting member state status).

That would mean America voting against something that is official White House policy: Palestinian statehood.

So, both the Americans and Israelis have been trying mightily to derail Abbas before he reaches the UN. Israel is now pinning its hopes on convincing a majority of democracies to vote no, calling it a “moral minority.”

Both Israel and the U.S. argue that the state of Palestine cannot come into being without Israel’s consent, never mind the fact that Israel didn’t ask anyone’s permission in 1948.
 
cubby1223, your are one of the prime ideologue residents here. I am quite aware that there is little chance of you to recognise rational sense, but for other viewers it bears repeating that the prime instigator of destabilising issues are of continued Israeli occupation and expansion. Rather than any plausible settlement, the state of Israel has a strategic desire to maintain the status quo with a divided and weakened Palestinian presence all to acquiesce its continued criminal expansion and ethnic cleansing.

OF course the ethnic cleansing that awas attempted against Israel multiple times is not to be considered in the equation. Possibly if the Arabs and Palestinians had been tolerant of the original '48 borders, this would not be happening; however, multiple times; they showed that they wanted it all and every time ended up with less than they started with.

But that does not count, correct?


The Palestinian Authority is conducting a unilaterally peaceful, diplomatic, and just way forward with the advocation of civil disobedience in their occupied land against the aggressors, in combination with a route to achieve a semblance of state sovereignty and a gained UN seat to lobby for criminal charges and further condemnation against Israel expansionist actions.

Just like LL, the use of just differs in the eye of the user. It is a great word to use, but difficult to actually define with exhibiting the true meaning/intent behind it's use.



Israeli action outside of its state borders fail a moral stiff test. A charged language is apt as the accurate parallels with history are damning indictments of Israeli state action:
  • As Germany of the past, Israel has a state policy of lebensraum. Ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.
  • Israel has long implemented policies akin to apartheid with militarily enforced separate areas and separate laws in the West Bank. Palestinians are subverted in favour of Israeli while only those Israeli colonists, rather than their subjugated Palestinian neighbours, are granted a political say upon state policy by Israel.
Condemnation upon Israel is not warranted out of its simply existence nor the presence of Jews, but of that state's extra-territorial criminal policies and actions. So, also please avoid a the expected trivial misrepresentation for no peace being achievalbe simply that due to hate for Jews or that myself, a Jew, gets-off "Jew-baiting" by presenting comparisons to a convicted Germany... 🙄

If those in rabid and absolute defence of Israel will again likely cry with hyperbole over such applicable language, then I call for a new tact. Try avoiding the familiar arguments into ad nauseum and Special Olympics style of attacks against internet messengers, and to contructively put an end to the likes of my vile language upon Israel. You can accomplish this via turning to a rationale course of action by pressuring Israel to cease its condemnable actions.

That such aggression in favour of Israeli Zionist is antagonistic ought ought to be fully reasonable to every honest witness. Do such high crimes warrant crimes of humanity attacks upon Israeli civilians? No. Yet those actions represent a minority of belligerents and most certainly do not give a pass to the continued and disproportionately greater instigating crimes by Israel.

Yet the actions of Palestinian leaders that bless such continued attacks and refuse to accept Israel as a state are considered to be justified and excusable.


So how can one negotiate with an entity that does not want to solve the overall issues. There is no advantage to agree. (This statement can easily be taken from either side of the fence).
 
Are you saying your full support of Palestine over Israel is for oil rights? That all your concerns for human rights are superficial? That if the Arab world did not have oil you would not be so dedicated to this conflict?
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In a word no, Israeli government behavior is increasingfly being called into question, which is why over 2/3'rd of UN nations will vote for a Palestinian State, simply because Israeli government behavior has been rude, crude, and socially unacceptable for 63 years.

As the USA pees its pants, because they are trying to avoid the consequences of a Palestianian State Veto. But the USA somehow thinks it can bail out Israeli bacon bullshit by not requiring a Israeli settlement freeze that could lead to a negotiated settlement rather than a continual Israeli adavantage.

In a word the USA ignore the fact, that no one in the world Believes a word of Bozo Netanyuhu bullshit. As Bozo claims to be for a Palesatinian State and does everything to prevent it.

But in four days, the US charade will run out.
 
Why would the US "charade" 'run out' in 4 days if they're voting on 9/20 and tomorrow is 9/20?
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Because Chucky2, the Palestinian statehood petition will occur until 9/23/2011 and not 9/20. Why have you not paid any attention to the issues?
 
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