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As Israel ticks ever closer to 9/20/2011

Lemon law

Lifer
Unlinked is the fact that Obama threatens to cut all Palestinian aid if the PA goes with its plan to seel a Palestinian State through the general assembly on 9/20/2100. Why should the US use this threat if it did not fear the embarrassement in being so isolated. Worse yet, since the EU can't find unity on the issue the EU may abstain as a block. Making the vote percentage wise possibly even more lopsided against the US position.

But in somewhat a vindication of an earlier position, Turkey now threatens to use its war ships to escort future Gaza flotillas to Gaza itself.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=237269

As Palestinian Statehood stakes get elevated by all parties. And its maybe long past time for the UN to quit trying to straddle any fences on a Palestinian State.
 
What's going to happen when they recognize the state of Palestine, Israel calls their bluff and recognizes it too, and then declares that any attack on it, no matter how small, will be seen as a declaration of war by Palestine to be countered with an all out military attack on that state by Israel?

I'm for a, preferably, one state solution (both sides mixed together), and if not possible, a two state solution...but you better be really careful what you wish for, both sides are F'ing nut jobs...
 
I want a Palestinian state but I just don't see how it's possible. Lets be realistic here. A Palestinian state can only be achieved by negotiating borders with the Israelis. Anything less and it's just going to be a complete waste of time.

Every person reading this, regardless of what country they are from, can clearly see that if their country was in the same situation it wouldn't work. Cherokee Indians just declaring their own country, Maori, Roma, or whatever. The Palestinians have nothing to stand on at the moment other than violence and the desire of the Israelis to have peace. One works and the other doesn't. So if they choose to just declare statehood the Israelis will simply roll in the tanks. Israel has been there and done that and no nation on the planet would accept a nine mile deep indefensible border. If everyone cares so much about the Palestinian people then how about giving them statehood in all these other countries they've been residing in for all these years? The Palestinians are like the Roma. Everyone just brushes them aside and pretends they're someone else's problem.
 
Yeah and like I've said in other threads - you can't just declare a state and then keep firing rockets. The second that happens it's over.
 
Turkey will not force an armed conflict. Embarrassment at results would upset military and government.

Palestinian state to get Security Council blessing needs to follow guidelines set out previously. They refuse to.
 
What's between Turkey and this Palestinian state? Turkey is trying to become the ruling force of the Mediterranean and the way to do so is first to neutralize Israel. Apart from that, most Turks are anti-Israel on a personal level and Arduan takes advantage of it to boost his public opinion.

Both Israel's and Turkey's bluff will be called if Turkey sends warships into Israeli waters. I wonder what would be the outcome of that 😉
 
Turkey will not force an armed conflict. Embarrassment at results would upset military and government.

Palestinian state to get Security Council blessing needs to follow guidelines set out previously. They refuse to.
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If Turkish warship escort future Gaza aid flotillas to Gaza, its Israel that will have to fire first, in an act of war. Nor is the legitimacy of any Israeli blockade of Gaza, anything but a disputed issue in the UN.

And while the preferred way to get to a Palestinian state is through mutual negotiation, the larger world now blames Israel for its 20+ year track record of talking and talking and settling and stalling while building in disputed territories, so the majority of UN nations already agree that if Israel refuses to do anything other than sham negotiate without a settlment freeze, seeking Statehood in the UN is maybe the better way for the Palestinians.

In other words, EK, there are more than one way to skin a cat. And as you can see, by the Nations prepared to vote for Palestinian Statehood, on 9/20/2011 and beyond, the old Israeli propaganda lines no longer operate.
 
Apart from that, most Turks are anti-Israel on a personal level and Arduan takes advantage of it to boost his public opinion.

First of all it is Erdogan not Arduan .. That shows that you are only listening, not reading ...

Second, most Turks are not anti Israeli or Anti - Jewish . The correct word is "Anti current Israeli Government policies and practices"
 
Turkey will not force an armed conflict. Embarrassment at results would upset military and government.

Palestinian state to get Security Council blessing needs to follow guidelines set out previously. They refuse to.

Israel has already forced an armed conflict on a civilian ship in international waters, I do not doubt that they will attack a Turkish warship. It is their choice ...
 
I have nothing against the country of Turkey. However, Israel has the right do defend itself from any agressive nation.
 
What's between Turkey and this Palestinian state? Turkey is trying to become the ruling force of the Mediterranean and the way to do so is first to neutralize Israel. Apart from that, most Turks are anti-Israel on a personal level and Arduan takes advantage of it to boost his public opinion.

Both Israel's and Turkey's bluff will be called if Turkey sends warships into Israeli waters. I wonder what would be the outcome of that 😉

A few dead Jews and a lot of dead Muslims
 
Yeah and like I've said in other threads - you can't just declare a state and then keep firing rockets. The second that happens it's over.


Yeah, what happens when Palestine has an official state and the rockets keep coming? Oh, I guess Israel should just suck it up and learn to deal with it.
 
I have nothing against the country of Turkey. However, Israel has the right do defend itself from any agressive nation.

This "Right to offense for defense" concept has gone too far. They are the aggressors and the spoiled child of the region.
 
They attacked the soldiers.


Soldiers that tried to board a ship in international waters, soldiers that are trained and armed to teeth, soldiers that killed 9 civilians, most of which are shot after they are knocked down and bruised. Yes they had every right!!! to murder people ...
 
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If Turkish warship escort future Gaza aid flotillas to Gaza, its Israel that will have to fire first, in an act of war. Nor is the legitimacy of any Israeli blockade of Gaza, anything but a disputed issue in the UN.

And while the preferred way to get to a Palestinian state is through mutual negotiation, the larger world now blames Israel for its 20+ year track record of talking and talking and settling and stalling while building in disputed territories, so the majority of UN nations already agree that if Israel refuses to do anything other than sham negotiate without a settlment freeze, seeking Statehood in the UN is maybe the better way for the Palestinians.

In other words, EK, there are more than one way to skin a cat. And as you can see, by the Nations prepared to vote for Palestinian Statehood, on 9/20/2011 and beyond, the old Israeli propaganda lines no longer operate.

Sham negotiations on both sides since Camp David. Palestinians did not plan on honoring agreements and Israel took advantage of that fact. Settlement freezes and the Palestinians did not show up. Why, no authority. Then you superpower gang of 5 gives advice and the Palestinians ignore such.

The Palestinians want it all and getting recognized with coming to terms with Israel is going to hurt them in the long run. They are going to be held accountable for their actions.
 
Yeah, what happens when Palestine has an official state and the rockets keep coming? Oh, I guess Israel should just suck it up and learn to deal with it.
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That indeed will be an interesting questions. If Palestinians have Statehood, why should they keep firing missiles against Israel? They will have things like building their own State to better occupy their time.

Then there is the other question, what happens if some non-Palestinian terror group fires missiles at Israel which recently happened?

Its would not be the fault of the Palestinians, but we can bet Israel would blame it on Palestinians anyway.

Then there is that other question of Israeli settler party violence that would be directed against any Palestinian State. But from the Israeli point of view, those would be a few isolated kooks whose actions are now to be blamed on Israeli people at all.

In other words, Palestinians are all uncivilized robots who all think and act in the same way. The fault in one Palestinian is the fault of them all. Which is why even Palestinian new born babies are fair game for punishment and extermination.

And Israelis are enlightened civilized beings who think independently except for a few kooks.

Just want to make sure I have the Israeli propaganda lines right.
 
Israel has already forced an armed conflict on a civilian ship in international waters, I do not doubt that they will attack a Turkish warship. It is their choice ...

Multiple ways exist for stopping Naval vessels and blockade runners. especially when routes are known well in advance
 
Soldiers that tried to board a ship in international waters, soldiers that are trained and armed to teeth, soldiers that killed 9 civilians, most of which are shot after they are knocked down and bruised. Yes they had every right!!! to murder people ...

Soldiers that board ships with *gulp* paint ball guns, that got beaten and stabbed.

Here's an interesting read from Wikipedia. Goes to show the face of those "peace activists":

Mavi Marmara boarding
The Mavi Maramara activists were divided into two groups, "peace activists" and "hardcore group".[1]:30 Video footage shows the "hardcore group" activists prepared before the raid, praying together while wearing the uniforms, taking their gas masks and makeshift weapons, and getting into position.[61] Activists dressed in protective clothing from construction materials[62] prevented Israeli boats from advancing by throwing broken plates and metal chains.[12]

The boarding of the Mavi Marmara started in the early morning at 4:30 IST. The operation began with an attempt to board the ship from speedboats. As the boats approached, activists fired water hoses at them, and pelted them with a variety of objects. The Israelis replied with paintballs and stun grenades. One stun grenade was picked up and tossed back into a boat. When the commandos tried boarding the ship, activists cut the ladders with electric disc saws. The boats then turned slightly away from the ship, but remained close.[60][63]

The IDF then sent in a Black Hawk helicopter with a 15-man assault team on board.[60][64][65] According to the IDF, the commandos fired warning shots and dropped stun grenades prior to abseiling onto the ship.[66] The UNHRC report on the incident concluded that the Israeli soldiers were firing live rounds from the helicopter before they landed anyone on the ship.[67] Al Jazeera reporter Jamal Elshayyal, who was on the ship, stated that he saw one man shot in the head and others wounded by live fire.[68] Other passengers reported gunfire, blue flares and deafening noise from the first helicopter at this time.[69][70] Robert Mackey of The New York Times suggested that the passengers on the ship may have mistaken the flash grenades and paintball guns for deadly weapons, which enraged them.[71] Activists and crew members used gas masks.[72]



An injured Israeli commando captured by activists aboard the Mavi Marmara
A rope was then dropped from the helicopter onto the ship, but three activists seized it and tied it to the deck.[73] A second rope was immediately dropped, and the soldiers abseiled onto the deck. Each soldier was met with a team of resisting activists, throwing them off balance and assaulting them with makeshift weapons.[74][75] The first team of four commandos was immediately attacked. Accounts vary. According to the official Israeli report, the team leader was quickly subdued, and thrown off deck. Two other Israeli commandos were abducted in the first minutes of the raid, and taken to an inside room. They had their guns wrested away, although Israel and the flotilla activists disagree over whether the guns were used by the activists.[76] Commandos reported that there was live fire against them at a later stage,[77][78][79] and that the second soldier to descend from the first helicopter was shot in the stomach.[80] IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi said that activists seized three stun grenades from soldiers.[81] The Israeli commandos responded with their less-lethal weaponry, and attempted to physically fight off activists.

Three Israeli commandos were captured. The first captured soldier, the commanding officer of the assault team, was abseiling from the helicopter when he was attacked by ten men before his feet hit the deck. He was beaten across his body and head, and eventually picked up and thrown to the lower deck, where he was attacked by a dozen activists, who beat and choked him, removed his bulletproof vest and sidearm and smashed his helmet, and was shoved into a passenger hall below deck. The second soldier was surrounded by a team of fifteen to twenty activists in two groups, thrown from one group to the other, when he landed on the ship's roof. He managed to draw and cock his pistol and fire one shot at an activist holding a knife before being subdued.[82] The activists seized his gun and beat him as he attempted to fight them off with his back to the hull. After about two minutes, he was picked up by his arms and legs, and was thrown over the hull despite attempts to resist. He attempted to hang on to the hull with both hands, but was eventually forced to let go by activists beating his hands and other activists below pulling him down by his legs. He was then surrounded by another group of activists, stabbed in the stomach, and was dragged into a lounge while being beaten every time he resisted. A third soldier who was lowered onto the deck saw an activist waiting to attack him with an iron crowbar. After shoving him away, he was attacked by four more activists, one of whom wrapped a chain around his neck and choked him until he lost consciousness as he attempted to fight them off. He was then thrown onto the bridge deck, where he was attacked by about twenty activists, who beat him, cut away his equipment, and dragged him into the lounge.[83] The three soldiers were severely wounded and bleeding heavily. Two of the soldiers had their hands tied, and a third was unconscious and went into convulsions. During their captivity, they were subjected to physical and verbal abuse, and photographed and filmed. One of the soldiers claimed that he was beaten after he began moving and yelling that one of the soldiers needed a doctor, and another said that he was placed onto a couch, beaten, and threatened that he would be beaten every time he moved.[84] Although radical activists attempted to harm them further, more moderate passengers intervened and protected the soldiers.[85] Two were given water and one with a severe stomach wound was given a gauze pad. Hasan Huseyin Uysal, a Turkish doctor, cleaned the blood off their faces and tended to facial cuts.[86]



IDF commandos and activists clashing on the deck
After the third soldier was thrown from the roof, the commandos requested and received permission to use live fire.[82][87] The soldiers then opened fire with pistols, and activists dispersed to the front and back of the roof after taking casualties. An IDF medical officer on board located a secure spot, and oversaw treatment of injured soldiers. A second helicopter carrying 12 soldiers arrived over the ship. As the helicopter approached, activists attacked the IDF commandos, who repulsed them with gunshots aimed at their legs. At the same time, the speedboats trailing the ship approached again. They were met with a barrage of objects, including iron balls from slingshots, and allegedly with a burst of gunfire, forcing the boats to pull back again.[88][89]

Soldiers from the second helicopter successfully slid down and began moving towards the front of the roof to reinforce control of the ship. They were attacked by activists, but dispersed them with shots towards their legs. The soldiers attempted to secure the lower decks, but were met with violent resistance, allegedly including live fire. Shortly afterward, a third helicopter arrived, carrying 14 soldiers. They successfully abseiled onto the ship, and the commander from the third helicopter met up with the commander from the second helicopter, after which the forces began moving towards the ship's bridge. They were attacked twice by activists, and opened fire. The commandos reached the bridge after thirty minutes, and took command. Upon orders from the soldiers, the captain instructed all activists to enter their cabins. At this stage, most of the activists assembled on the sides of the ship retreated into the hull. The speedboats approached for a third time, and most of the remaining activists again hurled objects at the boats. Soldiers inside the boats then opened fire, taking careful aim to hit the resisting passengers and forcing the activists to disperse, enabling the soldiers to board from ladders. The soldiers were met with resistance, and responded with live fire. They managed to fight their way to the roof, where they met up with the rest of the force.[60][90] An assessment was made, and three soldiers were found to be missing. A force was prepared to rush the passenger halls and locate the soldiers. According to the IDF, soldiers spotted activists escorting the three captive soldiers onto the deck. One of the captive soldiers claimed that the activist guarding him waved to one of the IDF naval vessels to show that they were holding Israeli soldiers. At that point, he elbowed the activist in the ribs and jumped into the water, although the guard tried to hold him back. A second soldier also jumped into the water, while the third remained unconscious on the deck. IDF soldiers dispersed the activists with non-lethal weapons, and rescued the unconscious soldier, while the two soldiers in the water were picked up by the naval vessels.[91][87][92] According to some accounts by activists and journalists, however, the soldiers were released after negotiations mediated by Haneen Zoabi, in which the IDF agreed to airlift the wounded in exchange for their release.[57][86][93][68]

All of the passengers were then taken one-by-one from their cabins and onto the external decks, where they were searched. Most of the passengers were then handcuffed and forced to kneel for hours. Some women, elderly men, and western nationals were either temporarily handcuffed or uncuffed shortly afterward, and were allowed to sit on the benches. During the course of the journey to Ashdod port, passengers were brought inside and allowed to sit down. According to the UN fact-finding mission, passengers were subject to various forms of abuse.[94]

IDF Lieutenant-General Gabi Ashkenazi testified to Israel's Turkel Commission that the IDF had fired 308 live rounds and about 350 bean bag rounds and paintballs. An aide to the general said that that 70 of these shots were aimed to cause injury, while the others would have been warning shots. IDF Major-General Giora Eiland said that the IDF had found evidence of four instances of soldiers coming under fire from activists, and that in at least one case, the fire came from weapons that were not stolen from commandos.[60][87]
 
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Then LL, I guess Israel better control its fundi's, and the new Palestinian state needs to control theirs. And since Israel has by far the better military, the Palestinians as a whole need to get fundi on anyone from their state being aggressive towards Israel...

...except we all know they won't, because they - rightfully - hate the Israeli's, so, we know how the above would really work out, don't we...
 
First of all it is Erdogan not Arduan .. That shows that you are only listening, not reading ...

Second, most Turks are not anti Israeli or Anti - Jewish . The correct word is "Anti current Israeli Government policies and practices"

Where was that poll in Turkey that listed US as the "primary enemy" of Turkey (42% of the surveyed thought so), with Israel second at 26%?
 
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