[Ars][Unconfirmed] PS4 to have an x86 AMD CPU

[pelov]

April Fools?

No, this was reported by a few sources over the past couple of weeks. It's legit.

I hope AMD does manage to get their APUs in all 3 major consoles. Regardless of whether it's Llano/Trinity or VLIW/GCN, so long as it's a step away from console ports and closer to PC HW I'm happy.

 

[taltamir]

No, this was reported by a few sources over the past couple of weeks. It's legit.

I hope AMD does manage to get their APUs in all 3 major consoles. Regardless of whether it's Llano/Trinity or VLIW/GCN, so long as it's a step away from console ports and closer to PC HW I'm happy.

1. We will see more console ports this way (they just wouldn't perform as poorly due to massive expensive optimization for consoles and no optimization at all for PCs; since PCs are powerful enough to deal with unoptimized code. Also their graphics would be better since the engine was built with more powerful hardware in mind)
2. The problem with console ports is that they foist a console interface and gameplay on you. Skyrim is a perfect example. Horrid console interface (which was bad even for consoles) foisted on unsuspecting PC users. And its not like it was difficult to do a better job. Modders got SkyUI out in a matter of weeks.

 

[grimpr]

Might not bode well for Sony with the supply issues that AMD has always had. It is definitely possible that GF will NOT produce these SKUs and that could mitigate the issue.

http://fab2construction.com/

 

[pelov]

You're right, but my usage of "console ports" I guess is a bit loose. By "console ports" I mean poor ports from console > PC due to differences in hardware that can potentially be overcome by using better and more streamlined hardware. I'd be happy to see more console ports that use the same GPU/CPU that I'm using This would mean fewer MW3s or ME3s where seemingly any GPU/CPU combination within the last 5 years is enough to drive the game at playable frame rates and poor graphics.

The console interface is a biggie and I hope doesn't get progressively worse. Skyrim is a perfect example of how it can be infuriating to control. But the fact that modders did a good job of fixing that up within a short amount of time speaks to the QA of Bethesda which was obviously lacking and the release was quite clearly rushed. Great game? Absolutely. It was also buggy as shit on both consoles and the PC after its initial release.

 

[taltamir]

The console interface is a biggie and I hope doesn't get progressively worse. Skyrim is a perfect example of how it can be infuriating to control. But the fact that modders did a good job of fixing that up within a short amount of time speaks to the QA of Bethesda which was obviously lacking and the release was quite clearly rushed. Great game? Absolutely. It was also buggy as shit on both consoles and the PC after its initial release.

Did they ever actually solve the engine issue on PS3?
That ex lead developer said it is impossible (for specific reasons he outlined), and they said "nah uh, is too possible because we solved those issues but we are not telling how. This problem is completely unrelated despite being identical in both cause and in temporary workarounds like reducing time objects remain in the game. We will fully fix it even though its already solved on patch 1.2... err 1.3.... err 1.4"

Also, the worse thing that happened to consoles was getting an internet connection. All modern consoles have internet updates for games, so companies do 0 QA. Games are released as a buggy mess that is NEVER fully fixed. They do a customary 1 or 2 patches that solve maybe 10% of issues and then declare it done.

 

[StrangerGuy]

Did they ever actually solve the engine issue on PS3?
That ex lead developer said it is impossible (for specific reasons he outlined), and they said "nah uh, is too possible because we solved those issues but we are not telling how. This problem is completely unrelated despite being identical in both cause and in temporary workarounds like reducing time objects remain in the game. We will fully fix it even though its already solved on patch 1.2... err 1.3.... err 1.4"

Also, the worse thing that happened to consoles was getting an internet connection. All modern consoles have internet updates for games, so companies do 0 QA. Games are released as a buggy mess that is NEVER fully fixed. They do a customary 1 or 2 patches that solve maybe 10% of issues and then declare it done.

On one hand we have incompetent game developers like you mentioned giving us all these broken-on-arrival games, yet on the other we have no shortage of mindless people giving money to them hand over fist even knowing well enough that this was already a huge problem for years. When will they EVER learn?

 

[taltamir]

On one hand we have incompetent game developers like you mentioned giving us all these broken-on-arrival games, yet on the other we have no shortage of mindless people giving money to them hand over fist even knowing well enough that this was already a huge problem for years. When will they EVER learn?

Eh, games that are actually finished and polished always do better... Just take a look at blizzard's games.

 

[Chiropteran]

Just take a look at blizzard's games before world of warcraft

Fixed that for you.

 

[zephyrprime]

The GPU is possible; the CPU is... questionable.

While Cell hasn't exactly developed a legion of fans among developers, PowerPC has. Everyone used PPC last generation and I have not heard any complaints about it. It just seems unlikely that they're going to switch to x86 unless IBM is failing to keep up on the performance front. Otherwise, what's the benefit?

The benefit is cost savings from integrated CPU/GPU systems. PPC definitely has a better ISA but ISA matters less than it once did and x64 has slowly evolved into something better than old x86 was. IBM's market for PPC doesn't care about integrated graphics or graphics at all for that matter. Power architecture is not being developed into cheap CPU/GPU combos like x86 is. Consoles are low costs products. Even though the initial price may be $500, it's still actually only a low end part. The price performance ratio of the combined CPU GPU dies will be unmatched once the products are a little more mature. Of course IBM could custom engineer a design for you if you pay them enough but the design will be expensive and slow since they don't make combined cpu+gpu's normally.

 

[taltamir]

Fixed that for you.

well, more like "excluding" world of warcraft. Since there is SC2 and D3...
Although those games are horribly tarnished by the antics of activision (always on internet connection required for offline game, DLCs, etc)

 

[Olikan]

You're right, but my usage of "console ports" I guess is a bit loose. By "console ports" I mean poor ports from console > PC due to differences in hardware that can potentially be overcome by using better and more streamlined hardware.

well, for xbox things won't change, M$ will still use Dx and that will be on the way...

for sony, if they use OpenGl again, maybe we can see a linux mod

 

[Grooveriding]

edited

 

[BenchPress]

It would have to be a CPU with AVX2. Else the Cell processor in PS3 would offer higher throughput and that's extremely doubtful.

This means it has to be AMD Steamroller or Intel Haswell.

 

[pelov]

well, for xbox things won't change, M$ will still use Dx and that will be on the way...

for sony, if they use OpenGl again, maybe we can see a linux mod

You have no idea how much I'd wish everyone would use openGL :awe: I absolutely loathe that DX is tied to windows and we haven't embraced a more open cross-platform API.

Game on linux? Saves me about $100 per build

 

[lamedude]

Might not bode well for Sony with the supply issues that AMD has always had. It is definitely possible that GF will NOT produce these SKUs and that could mitigate the issue.

Sony bought their fabs back last year. That move doesn't make much sense if they aren't going to use them for their next gen chips.

 

[taltamir]

You have no idea how much I'd wish everyone would use openGL :awe: I absolutely loathe that DX is tied to windows and we haven't embraced a more open cross-platform API.

Game on linux? Saves me about $100 per build

Just 100? Windows costs more then 100$... and what of other costs like an anti virus software?

 

[lamedude]

Newegg has Win7 OEM for $99.99 and MSE is free.

 

[IlllI]

how do you "confirm" something that probably wont be out for at least another 2 years

 

[taltamir]

Newegg has Win7 OEM for $99.99 and MSE is free.

MSE... you get what you pay for. Use ESET.

If you buy an OEM version without being an OEM who then resells that system you are in breach of license and have committed piracy. No different (legally) then torrenting it or buying a student license for 20$ without being a student.

 

[ViRGE]

The benefit is cost savings from integrated CPU/GPU systems. PPC definitely has a better ISA but ISA matters less than it once did and x64 has slowly evolved into something better than old x86 was. IBM's market for PPC doesn't care about integrated graphics or graphics at all for that matter. Power architecture is not being developed into cheap CPU/GPU combos like x86 is. Consoles are low costs products. Even though the initial price may be $500, it's still actually only a low end part. The price performance ratio of the combined CPU GPU dies will be unmatched once the products are a little more mature. Of course IBM could custom engineer a design for you if you pay them enough but the design will be expensive and slow since they don't make combined cpu+gpu's normally.

The thing is though you're assuming that the processor will be an APU from the get-go. That's not what typically happens. The original Xbox 360 processor set for example was 176mm^2 CPU + 182mm^2 GPU (358mm^2) + 80mm^2 EDRAM = 438mm^2 total. Even without the EDRAM, it's like trying to merge a small Bulldozer with Pitcairn (7800 series). It's simply not something you're going to do on one chip; the yields would be too low and consoles don't have a concept of binning.

So whatever the PS4 is, it's going to be a multiple chip monster. There's no real need for GPU/CPU synergy at the start, and in the end it's not clear that producing a single die is any better than doing an MCM package like they do now.

 

[taltamir]

The thing is though you're assuming that the processor will be an APU from the get-go. That's not what typically happens. The original Xbox 360 processor set for example was 176mm^2 CPU + 182mm^2 GPU (358mm^2) + 80mm^2 EDRAM = 438mm^2 total. Even without the EDRAM, it's like trying to merge a small Bulldozer with Pitcairn (7800 series). It's simply not something you're going to do on one chip; the yields would be too low and consoles don't have a concept of binning.

So whatever the PS4 is, it's going to be a multiple chip monster. There's no real need for GPU/CPU synergy at the start, and in the end it's not clear that producing a single die is any better than doing an MCM package like they do now.

1. Since cost is a major factor for next gen, it makes sense to use an APU from the get go. It will not be as cutting edge in performance as the biggest CPU + the biggest GPU currently buildable, but it will start out cheaper and consuming less power.
2. While there is no binning, PS3 demonstrated you can recover chips for a console by just cutting down all chips, even the non defective ones.

 

[SickBeast]

I don't understand Sony's thinking going with AMD for the CPU. It's going to be weak compared with what Intel could give them.

 

[pelov]

I don't understand Sony's thinking going with AMD for the CPU. It's going to be weak compared with what Intel could give them.

That really doesn't matter anymore with such powerful GPUs. So long as a CPU is good enough then it's good enough. Consoles don't do eyefinity and multiple 680s/7970s.

Virge, take a gander at the article at full length. He goes into detail about how companies aren't willing to take massive losses on their hardware like they did with previous generations (XBOX 720 opting with something like the 6670 shows just that) so mediocre hardware that can be sold at normal prices without losing several hundred dollars is the better bet. Throwing hardware that powerful into consoles isn't going to happen unless they can cut even or at least get close to it, but because consoles have to be priced competitively and rely heavily on volume you won't be seeing big chips inside anymore. If AMD can offer that 30%+ with Trinity now you're looking at a single chip with enough power to make the discrete options the console makers were considering start to look obsolete.

I'm hoping that the XBOX crossfire rumor is true. Maybe we can finally see some up-to-date crossfire profiles for once

 

[SickBeast]

It just seems like the PS4 will be quite weak compared to previous versions. They usually went with a GPU that was a generation ahead of whatever was available at the time, and the Cell CPU was quite advanced as well.

I guess it will be easy for them to make a system that does well at 1080p resolution. I don't believe any of this 4k nonsense for a second. There's no way they can make a GPU that will handle that resolution at a decent cost.

 

[lamedude]

I don't understand Sony's thinking going with AMD for the CPU. It's going to be weak compared with what Intel could give them.

Control
Hard to make a PS4 slim when your paying the same price for the CPU in 2018 as you were in 2013 and are unable to combine it with other components.