Armed Militia Members take over Federal Building in Oregon

[zinfamous]

If you want to talk about the Hammonds, I looked up the facts.

They are imprisoned by nothing more than a technicality [and arson and poaching and arson again] that is viewed as cruel and unusual by the Judge. They caused no harm, but morals be damned we're got our bureaucracy to bury lives under. So the feds step in to assert supremacy at unconstitutional cruelty all so the family can be ruined, go bankrupt, and sell their land to the feds.

All so we can claim to cross our Ts and dot our Is.
Is America a grinder, set to purpose at crushing innocent people?

ftfy

 

[fskimospy]

If you want to talk about the Hammonds, I looked up the facts.

They are imprisoned by nothing more than a technicality that is viewed as cruel and unusual by the Judge. They caused no harm, but morals be damned we're got our bureaucracy to bury lives under. So the feds step in to assert supremacy at unconstitutional cruelty all so the family can be ruined, go bankrupt, and sell their land to the feds.

All so we can claim to cross our Ts and dot our Is.
Is America a grinder, set to purpose at crushing innocent people?

If cruel and unusual sentencing is your issue the Hammonds shouldn't even show up on your radar. The sentencing for drug crimes that are far less dangerous than arson are often far harsher. If their sentence is unconstitutional that means tens of thousands of other ones are, yet conservatives were perfectly happy with them.

I wonder why.

 

[Ackmed]

I still don't know what reverse racism is.

It's a made up phrase because some people think that some people can't be racist because they're a minority. Which is false. There is no such thing as reverse racism, only racism.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think it also has to do with the BLM chomping at the bits to seize their property, and BLM doesnt have the greatest track record (like in the past flooding lands of people who wouldnt sell their land to the BLM in order to destroy their property values so they have no choice but to sell to the BLM). Of course I'm not saying the BLM is somehow a unique agency in that regard since most of the things they did was tame compared to what the US government did to seize land during westward expansion to build the transcontinental railroad.

You merely assert the occupiers' claims as fact w/o any proof whatsoever.

It's what you want to believe, so you do. Righties have huge blind spots in that regard.

 

[blankslate]

Man they keep coming....

https://twitter.com/zhaabowekwe/status/684588845321613312

_______________

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Man they keep coming....

_______________

Ok, that officially wins the interwebz. That is so fucking awesome.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Occupation...

Criminal trespassing, illegal entry, etc...
Possessing a gun in the commission of a crime... across state lines... felony, yeah?
Conspiracy to commit this felony (group activity)

The criminal charges could be quite immense.

That is if we don't charge them with sedition. People keep yelling about terrorism but that is the wrong term here. They are not trying to use fear to influence government, they are as citizens attempting to incite people to commit treason and overthrow the government. The crimes they should be charged with is sedition and specific acts of treason by seizing federal property.

 

[Jaskalas]

If cruel and unusual sentencing is your issue the Hammonds shouldn't even show up on your radar. The sentencing for drug crimes that are far less dangerous than arson are often far harsher. If their sentence is unconstitutional that means tens of thousands of other ones are, yet conservatives were perfectly happy with them.

I wonder why.

Americans being systematically attacked and deprived of their property is something to relate to. Using drugs is not. Conservatives view drug use as a self imposed moral sin. They don't view ranching or trying to operate a small business in the same way.

And on top of that, I'd hope you already know where I stand in opposition to our absurd prison population. Though maybe we don't broach that subject frequently enough. One of the reasons I identify more as a Libertarian. I'd free those men if I could.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's interesting how we don't get the whole story. I found this from the Oregon district US Attorney's office-

http://www.therconline.com/#!Statem...torney-Williams/cg4a/568b27510cf232a0de2223d5

The second paragraph tells us that the Hammonds rejected a plea agreement to lesser charges & sentences. They then agreed to the current charges & sentencing while the jury was deliberating additional charges that might have demanded longer sentences.

Rejecting the initial plea was a horrible mistake, particularly in the federal system. US attorneys will not generally proceed to trial w/o very strong cases & very much prefer plea agreements. If they had to prosecute every case, the legal system would be swamped. Defendants who force a trial invite having their balls broken because it's no more trouble for the prosecution to do that than to press lesser charges. If you make their job more difficult they'll do their best to make your life miserable. That's been SOP for a very long time.

 

[Jhhnn]

Americans being systematically attacked and deprived of their property is something to relate to.

Well, yeh, but that's not what happened even if you pretend that it did.

 

[Jaskalas]

Well, yeh, but that's not what happened even if you pretend that it did.

Right... because their family is going to thrive and keep their property while these two are in prison...
That would be quite a feat.

BLM has a long history of being hostile neighbors.

 

[fskimospy]

Americans being systematically attacked and deprived of their property is something to relate to. Using drugs is not. Conservatives view drug use as a self imposed moral sin. They don't view ranching or trying to operate a small business in the same way.

I would view repeated arson as a self imposed moral sin. Wouldn't you?

And on top of that, I'd hope you already know where I stand in opposition to our absurd prison population. Though maybe we don't broach that subject frequently enough. One of the reasons I identify more as a Libertarian. I'd free those men if I could.

This is sort of my point. If this is cruel and unusual punishment, there are thousands and thousands of people who have had far crueler punishments inflicted on them for less dangerous crimes that conservatives couldn't give a shit about. (in fact they often advocate for even harsher punishments)

You touched on this and it's something I agree with, the complaints here have nothing to do with the actual punishment or its merits, it's that the punishment is being inflicted upon someone conservatives identify with. It's an aspect of the culture war, not justice.

 

[IronWing]

BLM has a long history of being hostile neighbors.

BLM has a long history of sucking rancher dick is what I think you meant to write as that would be far more accurate.

 

[Jhhnn]

That is if we don't charge them with sedition. People keep yelling about terrorism but that is the wrong term here. They are not trying to use fear to influence government, they are as citizens attempting to incite people to commit treason and overthrow the government. The crimes they should be charged with is sedition and specific acts of treason by seizing federal property.

I like the alternative scenario better- just let 'em leave when they get cold enough & hungry enough or starve/freeze to death if they want to martyr themselves for the cause. They'll know that the govt can prosecute at will & that further misbehavior will likely bring it on, multiple charges stacked so deep that they'll never see daylight again.

They'll also know that support for their brand of revolution is non-existent.

 

[zinfamous]

Ok, that officially wins the interwebz. That is so fucking awesome.

A little overboard on the slogans in that meme.

A simple Oregon Trail tombstone with the Bundy/militant group name and "Died of snack loss", e.g. would be perfect.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I like the alternative scenario better- just let 'em leave when they get cold enough & hungry enough or starve/freeze to death if they want to martyr themselves for the cause. They'll know that the govt can prosecute at will & that further misbehavior will likely bring it on, multiple charges stacked so deep that they'll never see daylight again.

They'll also know that support for their brand of revolution is non-existent.

The problem with that is that it encourages other loons to try the same thing, since there is little consequence to trying. Next time they might not take over a bird watching outpost in the middle of BFE but somewhere important. Then people will die.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I like the alternative scenario better- just let 'em leave when they get cold enough & hungry enough or starve/freeze to death if they want to martyr themselves for the cause. They'll know that the govt can prosecute at will & that further misbehavior will likely bring it on, multiple charges stacked so deep that they'll never see daylight again.

They'll also know that support for their brand of revolution is non-existent.

I wouldn't bet on that.
Law Enforcement Confirms Militiamen Are Free To Come and Go From Refuge
I can't find the article I read yesterday, but it predicted that anything they would be charged with would likely amount or be plead down to misdemeanors in large part because the sheriff hasn't actually ordered them to disperse or tried to place anyone under arrest. Maybe if there was an anonymous tip that there was a black twelve year old kid with a toy gun hold up with them we'd see some action.

Edit: Not to put too fine a point on it but sympathy, if not full on support for their brand of revolution, permeates rural law enforcement.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

A little overboard on the slogans in that meme.

A simple Oregon Trail tombstone with the Bundy/militant group name and "Died of snack loss", e.g. would be perfect.

indeed, a true case of less is more.

 

[Theb]

I listened to an interview with the county sheriff last night. I did not know that the militia had been following government workers and their families around prior to taking over the bird sanctuary.

Ward said in the months prior to the occupation, Bundy’s group had made a number of people who work for the Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service feel uncomfortable, following them or their family members around and photographing their homes.

http://ijpr.org/post/harney-county-sheriff-armed-occupiers-will-face-charges#stream/0

 

[bshole]

While these idiots are holed up in the federal building, why doesn't the government take this opportunity to confiscate their homes, land and personal property? No muss and no fuss.

All this over the fact that douchebags want to feed their cows for free on taxpayer land.

 

[TheSlamma]

While these idiots are holed up in the federal building, why doesn't the government take this opportunity to confiscate their homes, land and personal property? No muss and no fuss.

All this over the fact that douchebags want to feed their cows for free on taxpayer land.

As long as it stays 100% within the rights of the 4th amendment.

At the same time we don't pick our families, suck to see a wife and kids end up homeless cause hubby had a screw go lose and do this dumb sh!t. Rather just see him locked up and the family be better off without him.

 

[Jhhnn]

Right... because their family is going to thrive and keep their property while these two are in prison...
That would be quite a feat.

Yeh, it's that personal responsibility thing. Don't do stupid shit that jeopardizes your family's well-being. At worst, they'll get a fair Free Market! price, right?

BLM has a long history of being hostile neighbors.

Not really.

BLM has a long history of sucking rancher dick is what I think you meant to write as that would be far more accurate.

The modern BLM & Forest Service are more like boy scouts than many ranchers would like.

I would view repeated arson as a self imposed moral sin. Wouldn't you?

This is sort of my point. If this is cruel and unusual punishment, there are thousands and thousands of people who have had far crueler punishments inflicted on them for less dangerous crimes that conservatives couldn't give a shit about. (in fact they often advocate for even harsher punishments)

You touched on this and it's something I agree with, the complaints here have nothing to do with the actual punishment or its merits, it's that the punishment is being inflicted upon someone conservatives identify with. It's an aspect of the culture war, not justice.

It's conservatives' version of social justice warriors, a phrase they usually employ in a derisive manner.

 

[bshole]

As long as it stays 100% within the rights of the 4th amendment.

At the same time we don't pick our families, suck to see a wife and kids end up homeless cause hubby had a screw go lose and do this dumb sh!t. Rather just see him locked up and the family be better off without him.

Fuck we taxpayers didn't ask these vermin to freeload off us for decades and then threaten deadly force when asked to pay up! We need a strong example made of them.

 

[DrPizza]

While this is about arson & poaching & idiots, the grazing issue keeps coming up. As I explained it to someone locally, I own land and raise goats. I can support up to about 100 goats. Off the corner of my land is 7500 acres of state forest - with plenty of acreage that could be used for grazing. I could easily increase my herd to 1000 goats - multiplying my profits 10-fold, by grazing my goats on the public's land. Lets say I did so, putting a lot of profit into my pocket, for 10 years, or 20 years or longer - it makes no difference... People would support me if the government said, "yep, we've let you use the public land for grazing your goats in the past, but we want you to stop grazing your goats on the public land"???!! That seems pretty stupid to me - why should I be allowed to, as Bshole put it, freeload off the public's land, then become indignant when told to stop?

 

[IronWing]

While this is about arson & poaching & idiots, the grazing issue keeps coming up. As I explained it to someone locally, I own land and raise goats. I can support up to about 100 goats. Off the corner of my land is 7500 acres of state forest - with plenty of acreage that could be used for grazing. I could easily increase my herd to 1000 goats - multiplying my profits 10-fold, by grazing my goats on the public's land. Lets say I did so, putting a lot of profit into my pocket, for 10 years, or 20 years or longer - it makes no difference... People would support me if the government said, "yep, we've let you use the public land for grazing your goats in the past, but we want you to stop grazing your goats on the public land"???!! That seems pretty stupid to me - why should I be allowed to, as Bshole put it, freeload off the public's land, then become indignant when told to stop?

It goes beyond simple freeloading. The ranchers get paid to trash the public lands through USDA handouts. The grazing preference system gives the ranchers the ability to hand down the leases to their children w/o competitive bidding. It is a taxpayer supported hereditary aristocracy. The ranchers can also sell the leases for big bucks as the leases are the ticket to the tax supported gravy train. It is as un-American a system as I can think of.