Armed Militia Members take over Federal Building in Oregon

[Jhhnn]

The problem with that is that it encourages other loons to try the same thing, since there is little consequence to trying. Next time they might not take over a bird watching outpost in the middle of BFE but somewhere important. Then people will die.

I see it the other way. What could be more soul crushing to wannabee revolutionaries than to have nobody show up to join in? And for the ebil gubmint oppressors to leave you alone? Where's the glory in that?

What if they see that they're just making fools of themselves?

This really is a very small group of people undoubtedly with large files in the federal LEO database. The first time anybody starts shooting the feds will unload all of it on the survivors in federal court, just for being there. Besides that, the feds can go scoop up a lot of them on a variety of charges anytime they feel like it. That's at the time & place of LEO choosing, not when they're together.

Things change once the shooting starts, particularly if federal agents are killed as in Waco. That's when it's surrender or die, make no mistake about it.

 

[Sonikku]

While this is about arson & poaching & idiots, the grazing issue keeps coming up. As I explained it to someone locally, I own land and raise goats. I can support up to about 100 goats. Off the corner of my land is 7500 acres of state forest - with plenty of acreage that could be used for grazing. I could easily increase my herd to 1000 goats - multiplying my profits 10-fold, by grazing my goats on the public's land. Lets say I did so, putting a lot of profit into my pocket, for 10 years, or 20 years or longer - it makes no difference... People would support me if the government said, "yep, we've let you use the public land for grazing your goats in the past, but we want you to stop grazing your goats on the public land"???!! That seems pretty stupid to me - why should I be allowed to, as Bshole put it, freeload off the public's land, then become indignant when told to stop?

Do it.

 

[Subyman]

Our family leases our land to farmers to grow crops. I sure wish I could throw some corn seeds on the government land next to mine and harvest those too.

 

[IronWing]

Our family leases our land to farmers to grow crops. I sure wish I could throw some corn seeds on the government land next to mine and harvest those too.

Careful, if you do that, in twenty to thirty years, you'll get a memo right up the mailbox.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Haha I just saw a news report. They tried to find a local to talk to that supported these dummies. They couldn't find one, I the reporter said they spent a lot of time trying to find one

 

[SMOGZINN]

I see it the other way. What could be more soul crushing to wannabee revolutionaries than to have nobody show up to join in? And for the ebil gubmint oppressors to leave you alone? Where's the glory in that?

The problem with this is that it means that if you are a wannabee revolutionary then you should go take over a federal building. If you are wrong and people don't like you they will let you go home, but if you are right and people want to support your cause you get to start your revolution.

 

[DrDoug]

It goes beyond simple freeloading. The ranchers get paid to trash the public lands through USDA handouts. The grazing preference system gives the ranchers the ability to hand down the leases to their children w/o competitive bidding. It is a taxpayer supported hereditary aristocracy. The ranchers can also sell the leases for big bucks as the leases are the ticket to the tax supported gravy train. It is as un-American a system as I can think of.

Not only that but the taxpayers also subsidize ranchers who use BLM land. Leasing BLM land is the cheapest way for ranchers to feed their livestock. BLM land is up to 93% cheaper than leasing private lands because the ranchers pay about 15% of what it actually costs the government to keep the land fit for feeding livestock.

The Bundys and other ranchers assholes think that amount is government tyranny and instead want to take it for free.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not only that but the taxpayers also subsidize ranchers who use BLM land. Leasing BLM land is the cheapest way for ranchers to feed their livestock. BLM land is up to 93% cheaper than leasing private lands because the ranchers pay about 15% of what it actually costs the government to keep the land fit for feeding livestock.

The Bundys and other ranchers assholes think that amount is government tyranny and instead want to take it for free.

It's part of our system of Ag subsidies.

Ranchers often control the only reasonable access to federal lands making some grazing area permits theirs because nobody else can use 'em. Smaller outfits, in particular, tend to overgraze even their own property because they're on the ragged edge of profitability. In generational timeframes the actual carrying capacity of the land has been reduced in all too many places. I've worked with people from ranching families over the years & they all say one thing- if you can't graze 50,000 acres or more, you'll need a job and a ranch.

 

[Jhhnn]

The problem with this is that it means that if you are a wannabee revolutionary then you should go take over a federal building. If you are wrong and people don't like you they will let you go home, but if you are right and people want to support your cause you get to start your revolution.

The other side of it is that killing or locking up delusional fools like these only provides martyrs for the cause, such as it is. It's not like their movement will ever be more than a pimple on Uncle Sam's ass. This isn't Harper's Ferry where the great crime of slavery was the underlying cause. In this case, there is no great crime against the people & anybody with a lick of sense knows it.

 

[DrDoug]

It's part of our system of Ag subsidies.

Ranchers often control the only reasonable access to federal lands making some grazing area permits theirs because nobody else can use 'em. Smaller outfits, in particular, tend to overgraze even their own property because they're on the ragged edge of profitability. In generational timeframes the actual carrying capacity of the land has been reduced in all too many places. I've worked with people from ranching families over the years & they all say one thing- if you can't graze 50,000 acres or more, you'll need a job and a ranch.

The overgrazing thing really pisses some ranchers off. They would like to (ab)use the land as they see fit, driving it to exhaustion by overgrazing. No matter how shortsighted they are about it, they view every penny saved as a penny of profit. Even if they eventually ruin the land via overgrazing, water pollution and so on. The BLM monitors the land use and removes it from use when they think it is time to set it aside and let it recover before putting it back into use. The wise use of resources is not the strong suit of some ranchers, as history has repeatedly shown.

Not all ranchers are bad actors but enough of them are that the government has to keep them in check to keep them from wrecking the public lands for the other ranchers.

 

[SMOGZINN]

The other side of it is that killing or locking up delusional fools like these only provides martyrs for the cause, such as it is. It's not like their movement will ever be more than a pimple on Uncle Sam's ass. This isn't Harper's Ferry where the great crime of slavery was the underlying cause. In this case, there is no great crime against the people & anybody with a lick of sense knows it.

Martyrs for a cause no one cares about is not much of a problem, while every loon that thinks that Fox news saying something is destroying 'Merica! is cause to start a revolt taking over a federal building could quickly turn nasty.

 

[sactoking]

Our family leases our land to farmers to grow crops. I sure wish I could throw some corn seeds on the government land next to mine and harvest those too.

Make sure they're not patented Monsanto seeds.

 

[Jhhnn]

The overgrazing thing really pisses some ranchers off. They would like to (ab)use the land as they see fit, driving it to exhaustion by overgrazing. No matter how shortsighted they are about it, they view every penny saved as a penny of profit. Even if they eventually ruin the land via overgrazing, water pollution and so on. The BLM monitors the land use and removes it from use when they think it is time to set it aside and let it recover before putting it back into use. The wise use of resources is not the strong suit of some ranchers, as history has repeatedly shown.

Not all ranchers are bad actors but enough of them are that the government has to keep them in check to keep them from wrecking the public lands for the other ranchers.

Agreed. A lot of them don't understand the reason they can only run 1 cow per 40 acres is because their grandfathers & great grandfathers ran 1 cow per 10 acres. They often beat the shit out of the land actually creating erosion & openings for the invasive species that limit recovery. Neither the Forest Service or the BLM understood much of it at the time, either. None of them did. The dust bowl wasn't just about farming but about ranching, too.

The Forest Service, the BLM & Ag interests have relationships dating back for generations. It's not like the govt wants to chase them off the land at all but rather to facilitate them using it in non-destructive ways so that Americans in general can receive the benefit of it for the foreseeable future.

 

[Subyman]

Make sure they're not patented Monsanto seeds.

Everything here is Monsanto

 

[TheSlamma]

Everything here is Monsanto

Write to this guy, I'm sure he cares about your issue.

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersOffices/OfficeofFoods/ucm196721.htm

 

[Humpy]

Never knew there were so many farmer/cow folk on the AT forums.

 

[Jaskalas]

Haha I just saw a news report. They tried to find a local to talk to that supported these dummies. They couldn't find one, I the reporter said they spent a lot of time trying to find one

And that's why I must condemn the occupation. Though I am sympathetic to their plight, they represent no democratic authority.

 

[Brainonska511]

Make sure they're not patented Monsanto seeds.

Stupid meme. Seeds have been patentable since Plant Patent Protection Act of 1930.

 

[DrDoug]

Agreed. A lot of them don't understand the reason they can only run 1 cow per 40 acres is because their grandfathers & great grandfathers ran 1 cow per 10 acres. They often beat the shit out of the land actually creating erosion & openings for the invasive species that limit recovery. Neither the Forest Service or the BLM understood much of it at the time, either. None of them did. The dust bowl wasn't just about farming but about ranching, too.

The Forest Service, the BLM & Ag interests have relationships dating back for generations. It's not like the govt wants to chase them off the land at all but rather to facilitate them using it in non-destructive ways so that Americans in general can receive the benefit of it for the foreseeable future.

Another problem with overgrazing is stripping the land of green increases the risk of fires, another job of the BLM (fire suppression), which then makes erosion even worse than overgrazing alone. One interesting note is the idiots Reagan put in charge of the lands (James Watt being one of them) who believe in what they called the Wise Use policy. Basically they believe that the public lands would be better if they were put in the hands of private interests. IOW, ranchers and business interests. All public lands.

No. NonononononoNO! Oh fuck NO!

 

[sactoking]

Stupid meme. Seeds have been patentable since Plant Patent Protection Act of 1930.

Meme what? I was referring to Monsanto's hyper-aggressive litigation strategies relating to their patent enforcement.

 

[waggy]

Meme what? I was referring to Monsanto's hyper-aggressive litigation strategies relating to their patent enforcement.

fuck Monsanto.


that is all..

 

[Brainonska511]

Meme what? I was referring to Monsanto's hyper-aggressive litigation strategies relating to their patent enforcement.

I don't think they're hyper aggressive at all. They've filed 147 lawsuits in 18 years over patented plants and only a few ever went to trial. That doesn't seem like hyper enforcement to me. And they've never sued anyone for "inadvertantly contamination."

Edit:
I just don't see why people blame companies for enforcing their legitimate patents - it's not like Monsanto is a patent troll; they're actually researching and developing new products. Plus, no one is forcing people to use Monsanto's seeds. There are plenty of other seeds available on the market, both patented (from other companies) and nonpatented. And as far as licensing agreements go, Monsanto's agreement is not out of the norm for plant patents.

 

[DrDoug]

Sheriff Ward is holding a meeting with the citizens of the county. Here's a quote of his:

Sheriff: “You don’t get to come here from elsewhere and tell us how we’re going to live our lives.” http://koin.com/koin-video-extras/?cid=twitter_KOINNews
— KOIN News (@KOINNews) January 7, 2016
​

Damned straight.

ETA: Someone watching the stream said:

Deputies are being followed around. Someone flattened the sheriff’s wife’s tires so she packed up and left.
— JJ MacNab (@jjmacnab) January 7, 2016
​

It's easy to see why the sheriff is pissed...lol!

 

[Jhhnn]

Martyrs for a cause no one cares about is not much of a problem, while every loon that thinks that Fox news saying something is destroying 'Merica! is cause to start a revolt taking over a federal building could quickly turn nasty.

There aren't enough of those loons for it to be more than an annoyance. If they start shooting, there will be even fewer.

I like the way that the govt is giving it a chance to play out into a faceplant all on its own. If it doesn't, the govt can always limit access & change the rules to surrender or starve.

There's a lot of winter left, plenty of time to let it unfold.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Sheriff Ward is holding a meeting with the citizens of the county. Here's a quote of his:
Damned straight.

You sure that's not a Bundy tweet towards the feds?