Question Apple Vision Pro announced - $3499!

[Heartbreaker]

You seem very hostile to people just asking questions!

You seem to read hostility into just answering questions. You can use a keyboard anywhere you can use a keyboard today with equal efficiency.

I asked if you watched the presentation because they demoed using it with a KB and trackpad.

 

[Red Storm]

I was replying to someone that was talking about using multiple screens while out and about or while lying in bed.

By "multiple displays" I'm talking about app windows that are all around you in your space which you can move around as you see fit. You really should watch the promo video to help understand:

It's all controlled by your eyes and hands. There's no mouse cursor, instead your eyes (where you look) is the mouse cursor. As an example, instead of having to tap/click on a speech icon to initiate voice input from a search bar, instead you just look at the speech icon and "click" it by tapping two fingers together. They've eliminated the need for a mouse by enabling the system to track your eye movement. The only situation I could think of where you'd really want mouse movement separate from looking is in gaming, but for general computing use it's amazing.

 

[WelshBloke]

You seem to read hostility into just answering questions. You can use a keyboard anywhere you can use a keyboard today with equal efficiency.

I was just trying to get an idea of the work flow of the person I was talking to. They were talking about using multiple virtual screens in a variety of situations some of which precluded using a keyboard.

I asked if you watched the presentation because they demoed using it with a KB and trackpad.

I did watch the presentations, I'm still kinda stuck on the feeling that it'll be just be something that feels cool in a lot of situations but is actually is more of a faf to use than the old way.

 

[Red Storm]

uhh no... you got it the other way around.
Its what about the HW that allows you to do what you want with it..

This is what forced me to get 3 units... and all 3 units still felt very lacking with little to no support hence why i dropped VR entirely.



You can do this pretty well with on a index with motion cubes.
This is why i said those motion tracking devices are very important and the precision of them.

But hey what do i know... i only had 2 units which supported motion tracking modules to begin with, and both ended up being garbage when you tried to play sniper role and look though scope and fire with accuracy.

You keep talking about motion tracking in the context of VR headsets and moving your body around, while I was talking about eye and hand tracking for interface control. Two different things, but the Vision Pro does do positional tracking and it works very well without the need of base stations. People who did hands on have said they could pin an app window at a specific spot and it stayed perfectly still even when they moved around. The part with the dinosaur peering in through a portal in the wall, the dinosaur was able to keep looking at the user while they moved around.

 

[WelshBloke]

By "multiple displays" I'm talking about app windows that are all around you in your space which you can move around as you see fit. You really should watch the promo video to help understand:

It's all controlled by your eyes and hands. There's no mouse cursor, instead your eyes (where you look) is the mouse cursor. As an example, instead of having to tap/click on a speech icon to initiate voice input from a search bar, instead you just look at the speech icon and "click" it by tapping two fingers together. They've eliminated the need for a mouse by enabling the system to track your eye movement. The only situation I could think of where you'd really want mouse movement separate from looking is in gaming, but for general computing use it's amazing.

I've seen that presentation. There's a lot about consuming media which I've already said I can see how that works. The productivity bit was very glossed over. Even the collaboration bit had the other two users not using apple vision, if they had you'd of had two VR generated avatars.
It'll be interesting to see actual reviews and people using them when it comes out, and by then I guess people will be more used to it and make work flows for it.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I was just trying to get an idea of the work flow of the person I was talking to. They were talking about using multiple virtual screens in a variety of situations some of which precluded using a keyboard.

I did watch the presentations, I'm still kinda stuck on the feeling that it'll be just be something that feels cool in a lot of situations but is actually is more of a faf to use than the old way.

I would have assumed their conditions that precluded the KB, like lying in bed would be more about entertainment or checking their email. If they need to type a lot they would use a KB. It's more about having instantly customizable, virtual display for any situation.

For travel this plus KB seems SO much better than being confined to a tiny laptop screen. I hate laptops due to their tiny screen, but having this to instantly have 50 square feet or more to place my windows in seems like a joy in comparison.

When traveling with a work laptop, I can't wait to escape the screen confinement and return to my desktop setups.

But if work gave me something like this I think it would feel the opposite. It would be returning to the confinement of a desktop, when I returned it.

 

[aigomorla]

Can you explain this a bit more for someone unfamiliar with current VR/AR stuff?
Do you just use a normal keyboard but you can see it through the goggles or doe you sort of wiggle your fingers on a virtual keyboard?

Sure...

They are called Hepatic Gloves... you can use them with motion tracking.
Heres a demo on how they work:

They are being more used in the professional setting now, as some even offer force feedback, or that i heard.
They also allow a more detail of control when in AR/VR world.
You get the true Minority Report thing going which everyone pictured AR to be.

You keep talking about motion tracking in the context of VR headsets and moving your body around,

Because this is the straw that keeps breaking the camels back so to speak.
And apple should of realized this when making their headset.
Don't get me wrong, Apple makes really nice professional stuff, but this headset is professional garbage IMO.
It doesn't even have half the features of other professional VR/AR equiptment, and it seems apple is trying to pawn it because it has the Apple logo, at more then what the real professional stuff costs.

 

[WelshBloke]

Sure...

They are called Hepatic Gloves... you can use them with motion tracking.
Heres a demo on how they work:

They are being more used in the professional setting now, as some even offer force feedback, or that i heard.
They also allow a more detail of control when in AR/VR world.
You get the true Minority Report thing going which everyone pictured AR to be.

Those look fun but pretty clunky.

Also I'd be too worried about looking like an idiot using them!

 

[WelshBloke]

I hate laptops due to their tiny screen, but having this to instantly have 50 square feet or more to place my windows in seems like a joy in comparison.

This made my neck ache just reading it!

 

[aigomorla]

Those look fun but pretty clunky.

Also I'd be too worried about looking like an idiot using them!

hey as long as you can look cool like Tom Cruise...

But that is the only way because, you need gloves and again motion tracking.

I hate laptops due to their tiny screen, but having this to instantly have 50 square feet or more to place my windows in seems like a joy in comparison.

OK im sorry now you proved you never owned a VR headset.
Only people who have never owned one will claim this statement.
This comparison is a MASSIVE PR hype, which isn't even true, if you really own and try one.

 

[WelshBloke]

hey as long as you can look cool like Tom Cruise...

Tom Cruise is a crazyMF but he does know how to bring the cool!

 

[Red Storm]

But that is the only way because, you need gloves and again motion tracking.

You don't need gloves to control an AR environment. Apple literally proved that by showing off the Vision Pro, and many of those who got to try it remarked on how incredible the interface control is.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Compared to dedicated motion tracking modules on the Index and HTC?
OK... if you say so...

Lets see if this unit can and will replace the HTC Pro2 in professional settings.

Just to clarify... when i say motion tracking modules.. i mean these guys:

https://www.amazon.com/HTC-Vive-Tracker-3-0-Base-Station/dp/B09L4XK3RN

Not ones built onto the headset, but actual boxes you setup like speakers around a spatial area you are standing.

I know what they are, but just because Valve uses base stations for tracking, doesn't mean they are still necessary. Inside out tracking might have been poor initally, but it's fine now. You have no evidence that Apple has poor tracking and the evidence from hands on testing on indicates excellent tracking.

Modern inside out tracking (Quest 2) vs Steam Base Station tracking:

The Quest 2, beat the Vive Base stations for motion tracking accuracy, and I'm sure Apple can do at least as well with 8 external cameras, Lidar and a true depth camera.

Comparing the Accuracy and Precision of SteamVR Tracking 2.0 and Oculus Quest 2 in a Room Scale Setup

Table 2: Descriptive statistics of mean errors of the tracked object height.

Tracked object	Mean [m]	SD [m]	Min [m]	Max [m]
Oculus Quest 2	-0.001	0.004	-0.006	0.006
HTC Vive Tracker	0.007	0.012	-0.0185	0.030

Furthermore, the tracking precision of the Oculus Quest 2 is substantially higher (i.e. the RMS is lower). Based on our findings and in line with other research [5, 10], we argue that the Oculus Insight tracking system is comparable – if not better – than SteamVR Tracking and thus highly interesting for applications in research and industry, due to substantially lower acquisition costs, higher mobility, and faster setup. More work is needed to investigate further on the capabilities and limitations of the Oculus Insight tracking system by investigating other important metrics (e.g. latency) or other setups (e.g. including controllers).

Bottom line: You no longer need base station for great motion tracking.

 

[Heartbreaker]

OK im sorry now you proved you never owned a VR headset.
Only people who have never owned one will claim this statement.
This comparison is a MASSIVE PR hype, which isn't even true, if you really own and try one.

You can place windows of any size, anywhere in your environment. I would say this one screen easily exceeds 50 square feet:




Or you can place many smaller windows around you:



Or you can organize them in flat planes at angles to each other:


The ability to place windows of any size, anywhere in your environment is just wild. I've never been interested in VR, but the ability to have any screen config, anywhere, is something I would really like. I hope everyone copies this...

 

[KMFJD]

xReal (formerly nReal)l AR Glasses can be had for a fraction of the price , glasses for $379 , the beam is an additional 120 for wireless casting

https://www.xreal.com/

 

[igor_kavinski]

They are called Haptic Gloves

FTFY

Hepatic relates to the liver. If there are ever going to be hepatic gloves, I suppose their purpose would be to tickle the liver

 

[A///]

FTFY

Hepatic relates to the liver. If there are ever going to be hepatic gloves, I suppose their purpose would be to tickle the liver

Hannibal Lecter would love it.

 

[manly]

Did Apple sell over $500M of overpriced products in one weekend? Obviously quite modest by Apple's lofty standards, but IMHO wild if true:

Apple Might Have Sold Up To 180,000 Vision Pro Headsets Over Pre-Order Weekend - Slashdot

According to analyst Min-Chi Kuo, Apple may have sold somewhere between 160,000 to 180,000 Vision Pro headsets during the past weekend. "This already far exceeds Kuo's earlier production figures of 60,000 to 80,000 units targeting the initial release on February 2, which is no wonder that the...

apple.slashdot.org

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Did Apple sell over $500M of overpriced products in one weekend? Obviously quite modest by Apple's lofty standards, but IMHO wild if true:

Apple Might Have Sold Up To 180,000 Vision Pro Headsets Over Pre-Order Weekend - Slashdot

According to analyst Min-Chi Kuo, Apple may have sold somewhere between 160,000 to 180,000 Vision Pro headsets during the past weekend. "This already far exceeds Kuo's earlier production figures of 60,000 to 80,000 units targeting the initial release on February 2, which is no wonder that the...

apple.slashdot.org

- The billion dollar question is how the sales hold up after the nutter butter apple diehards have all got theirs.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I'm curious to know how many of those nutter butter diehards are going to go in debt, for several months or even years just to experience a gadget priced way more than it is worth.

 

[Oyeve]

How long do you think apple will support this? Unless it's like the movie "ready player one" I say 6 months.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

How long do you think apple will support this? Unless it's like the movie "ready player one" I say 6 months.

- Apple has the cash to chase a bad idea for a while, and they know it would do them more damage to leave their 180,000 adopters high and dry that quickly than it would be to string the product along for a full generation or two.

I suspect we'll see a VP 2 & 3 at least before the thing is quietly sunset with little fanfare.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Or the darn thing becomes so popular that Chinese companies reverse-engineer it and then flood the market with a few good imitations and the revolution just keeps on gaining steam till most of the developed world is full of people walking around with these headsets.

 

[Heartbreaker]

- Apple has the cash to chase a bad idea for a while, and they know it would do them more damage to leave their 180,000 adopters high and dry that quickly than it would be to string the product along for a full generation or two.

I suspect we'll see a VP 2 & 3 at least before the thing is quietly sunset with little fanfare.

I think the same for all these VR/AR headsets regardless of price. They are just too cumbersome/uncomfortable for most people to want to use them in the long term.

Also as much as "Meta" wants to try and sell them as social devices for the "Metaverse" (gag), they are isolating devices most people will only want to use when home alone.

I watched the video on the Apple Vision Pro. It's the most impressive VR/AR demo I have seen, and people who tried it were blown away, but in the long term, I still think the above will points will prevail.

But I also agree, there will be 2.0 and 3.0 models from Apple. They have the money to keep trying, and they have a huge audience that will pay premium pricing.

I'd still love to play with it if it was free, and watch movies in it when home alone, but long term I think it would end up gathering dust, when the "Wow!" wore off.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I'd still love to play with it if it was free, and watch movies in it when home alone, but long term I think it would end up gathering dust, when the "Wow!" wore off.

Don't know about you but I don't feel like watching a movie on a 2D flat screen in the real world anymore after watching in VR cinema mode. VR is just more immersive and cuts you off from your surroundings which is what I want to get engrossed in a movie completely.