Question Apple Vision Pro announced - $3499!

[Red Storm]

I see "Minority Report" in the near future.

The possibilities of AR that can react to your physical environment are near limitless. Imagine an AR pet that can react to your home (i.e. sit on the couch or play with an AR ball that bounces off your real walls, etc.). And that pet could be anything from a cat or dog, to a mini T-Rex or Xenomorph if you wanted. We already know it can be responsive and follow you as explained in the dinosaur demo from hands on articles. That's just one idea, and people will be thinking up so many more. Makes me wish I knew how to code...

 

[Commodus]

I think it will be kind of amazing for using in short bursts. You can have as many screens around you as you want , sized and organized exactly as you want them. It will kind of suck reverting to your regular desktop with limited fixed monitors.

But for a workday, I think eye/head comfort will be a stumbling block for many/most people.

Your eyes will be permanently focused on one focal plane which will be tiring for your eyes, and after a while the pressure/weight on your head will take a toll. I know it will get lighter and more comfortable over time, but there will always be some discomfort.

While there is some work on variable focal distance displays for headsets, that seems like a LONG ways into the future. It will have to succeed with fixed focal distance displays before these are practical.

Those are good points, but I'd remember what it was like to use the first-generation iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. They were technological breakthroughs, but needed a while to hit their strides. The Vision Pro is a bit heavy now and may be fatiguing for extended use, but it's not hard to imagine the second- or third-generation model being a significant leap forward.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Those are good points, but I'd remember what it was like to use the first-generation iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. They were technological breakthroughs, but needed a while to hit their strides. The Vision Pro is a bit heavy now and may be fatiguing for extended use, but it's not hard to imagine the second- or third-generation model being a significant leap forward.

It can get lighter, but until there is a holodeck, there will always be some discomfort.

 

[Commodus]

It can get lighter, but until there is a holodeck, there will always be some discomfort.

True, I just think it's easy to see where Apple will go in the near future. Lighter, easier on the eyes, maybe longer-lasting... the dream is a headset you can use for an entire workday without being tied to a wall outlet.

 

[quikah]

Those are good points, but I'd remember what it was like to use the first-generation iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. They were technological breakthroughs, but needed a while to hit their strides. The Vision Pro is a bit heavy now and may be fatiguing for extended use, but it's not hard to imagine the second- or third-generation model being a significant leap forward.

True, but the iphone/ipad/watch actually solved some real problems and/or greatly improved some use cases. This doesn't really do anything like that.

100" screen? I already have a big TV, and I am not hurting for computing space on my current monitors. Travel? I already have a laptop.

VR has been around for 30+ years. The only thing that has changed is the fidelity. The use cases have been the same all along, and none of it has proven to be all that useful.

 

[Red Storm]

True, but the iphone/ipad/watch actually solved some real problems and/or greatly improved some use cases. This doesn't really do anything like that.

100" screen? I already have a big TV, and I am not hurting for computing space on my current monitors. Travel? I already have a laptop.

VR has been around for 30+ years. The only thing that has changed is the fidelity. The use cases have been the same all along, and none of it has proven to be all that useful.

Your TV is stuck in its place. Good luck trying to use it when you want to lay down in bed and look up at a 100 foot wide display. Or when you're not at home.

I like my multiple displays, but when I travel I can't take those with me. Now I can, and I can add more displays as needed and change their size to suit my needs on a whim, and it works whether I'm home, at a cafe, or in a hotel, and bonus points for it being totally private, especially in public spaces. Or I could take my multi display setup out on the deck when the weather is great and the family is outside (I'm assuming, we haven't gotten any confirmation that it will work outside).

AR makes possibilities nearly endless. Imagine being able to create custom macro keys that float next to your real (or virtual) keyboard (for example several different custom email reply templates), and all you need to do is look at one and tap two fingers to use it. And those keys could be moved, removed or changed to something else whenever you wanted.

The common thing I'm seeing with people who don't understand the use case of an AR computer is that they are comparing it to other VR headsets which are really just gaming accessories. An AR computer (with a revolutionary control method that is dead simple, intuitive, and fast) is an entirely different class of device, and software is a big part of what makes that possible.

 

[quikah]

Your TV is stuck in its place. Good luck trying to use it when you want to lay down in bed and look up at a 100 foot wide display. Or when you're not at home.

I like my multiple displays, but when I travel I can't take those with me. Now I can, and I can add more displays as needed and change their size to suit my needs on a whim, and it works whether I'm home, at a cafe, or in a hotel, and bonus points for it being totally private, especially in public spaces.

Imagine being able to create custom macro keys that float next to your real (or virtual) keyboard (for example several different custom email reply templates), and all you need to do is look at one and tap two fingers to use it. And those keys could be removed or changed whenever you wanted.

The common thing I'm seeing with people who don't understand the use case of an AR computer is that they are comparing it to other VR headsets which are really just gaming accessories. An AR computer is an entirely different class of device, and software is a big part of what makes that possible.

None of that appeals to me in the slightest. Guess we will see. I personally don't see this going anywhere.

One last point. This is fake AR. It is VR with a very nice pass through camera setup with all the problems and limitations that VR imposes. Eye fatigue being a HUGE issue. Real AR has some interesting use cases, but the tech isn't here yet.

 

[Heartbreaker]

One last point. This is fake AR. It is VR with a very nice pass through camera setup with all the problems and limitations that VR imposes. Eye fatigue being a HUGE issue. Real AR has some interesting use cases, but the tech isn't here yet.

This is real AR, just done much better.

AR on clear lenses is horrible, FOV on those things is under 50 degrees, with the bonus low resolution translucent images, that know one would mistake for real.

VP OTOH has FOV of about 100 degree and the augmented part can look just as good as the real part making the augmentation indistinguishable from the real camera feed.

Everyone trying this, says it's mind blowing and many of those people have tried multiple AR glasses and VR headsets.

This is the future of AR. Stuff like HoloLens is going to likely get killed by VP or move into an even smaller niche.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Onion VP reactions:

Fans React To Apple’s New VR Headset

After the tech company introduced the Apple Vision Pro, The Onion asked Apple fans what they thought about the new VR headset, and this is what they said.

www.theonion.com

“Finally something to fill the void that I couldn’t fill with my iPhone, iPad, MacBook, Apple Watch, iMac, Apple TV, or AirPods.”

 

[aigomorla]

Im sorry you would have to be a dedicated apple fan to even consider buying it.
Meta tried to sell there over priced version of the Quest Pro, and well, i don't need to tell you how that went, and how many millions Mark lost, not to mention he is still still burning millions trying to sell it. That was still less then 1/3rd the price of the unit with a lot more software and development behind it.

But no one is interested in a headset that cost more then your studio display, or a large premium TV.
Also we gave the VR sector a chance for many years, and they just keep on bring out pointless and stupid software because of buggy motion tracking.

Unless you write your own software for the tool, I really find any head set more then 1000 dollars really excessive and pointless. I have 2 VR headsets, and i gave up on them entirely.

So i am really lost in the whole point of these guys priced at i believe over 3500 dollars.
Oh that's right, its by Apple.

One last point. This is fake AR. It is VR with a very nice pass through camera setup with all the problems and limitations that VR imposes. Eye fatigue being a HUGE issue. Real AR has some interesting use cases, but the tech isn't here yet.

Eye fatigue is real, and so are the headaches from trying to focus.
Also i think 4k on dual eyes is really massively overkill when you probably wont be able to see that much detail when the image is spammed right in front of your eyes.

I used to say VR was great and the next gen, until you actually try playing with them.
Then its a utter clutter nightmare unless your using motion tracking devices with high calibration, which i believe no units but the HTC and Valve Index offer now.

 

[Red Storm]

Im sorry you would have to be a dedicated apple fan to even consider buying it.
Meta tried to sell there over priced version of the Quest Pro, and well, i don't need to tell you how that went, and how many millions Mark lost, not to mention he is still still burning millions trying to sell it. That was still less then 1/3rd the price of the unit with a lot more software and development behind it.

But no one is interested in a headset that cost more then your studio display, or a large premium TV.
Also we gave the VR sector a chance for many years, and they just keep on bring out pointless and stupid software because of buggy motion tracking.

Unless you write your own software for the tool, I really find any head set more then 1000 dollars really excessive and pointless. I have 2 VR headsets, and i gave up on them entirely.

So i am really lost in the whole point of these guys priced at i believe over 3500 dollars.
Oh that's right, its by Apple.



Eye fatigue is real, and so are the headaches from trying to focus.
Also i think 4k on dual eyes is really massively overkill when you probably wont be able to see that much detail when the image is spammed right in front of your eyes.

I used to say VR was great and the next gen, until you actually try playing with them.
Then its a utter clutter nightmare unless your using motion tracking devices with high calibration, which i believe no units but the HTC and Valve Index offer now.

Your comments about motion tracking really show you haven't seen or read anything about the Vision Pro other than maybe it's price.

 

[aigomorla]

Your comments about motion tracking really show you haven't seen or read anything about the Vision Pro other than maybe it's price.

Ive read cnets, and Virge.
And the fact it has almost 0 motion tracking is what im trying to point out.
It has Eye Tracking i believe... and uses its onboard motion sensors/Camera to motion track with very limited range.
Which has shown on the Rift S to be a horrible concept, hence why they kept improving it on the quest, but eventually still did not live up to having dedicated motion tracking devices mounted in corners like the index and HTC.

So what are you trying to defend about the said device?

Oh if we include the original occulus, i guess its 3 VR headsets ive owned in total before giving up VR entirely.
And i still believe the original Occulus was better then the Rift S, because of its motion tracking cubes you had to install.
VR i feel is very important to have full motion tracking.
Why else is it VR?

These glasses are advertised as VR.... if its was straight AR, then it would be a different story.

 

[quikah]

This is real AR, just done much better.

AR on clear lenses is horrible, FOV on those things is under 50 degrees, with the bonus low resolution translucent images, that know one would mistake for real.

VP OTOH has FOV of about 100 degree and the augmented part can look just as good as the real part making the augmentation indistinguishable from the real camera feed.

Everyone trying this, says it's mind blowing and many of those people have tried multiple AR glasses and VR headsets.

This is the future of AR. Stuff like HoloLens is going to likely get killed by VP or move into an even smaller niche.

You are missing my point when I say it is fake AR. This is VR, in that the entire experience is enclosed in a headset. I agree, current AR is not good. But I also think that VR is not something that can work long term due to all the problems of an enclosed solution.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Ive read cnets, and Virge.
And the fact it has almost 0 motion tracking is what im trying to point out.
It has Eye Tracking i believe... and uses its onboard Camera to motion track with very limited range.
Which has shown on the Rift S to be a horrible concept, hence why they kept improving it on the quest, but eventually still did not live up to having dedicated motion tracking devices mounted in corners like the index and HTC.

So what are you trying to defend about the said device?

Oh if we include the original occulus, i guess its 3 VR headsets ive owned in total before giving up VR entirely.
And i still believe the original Occulus was better then the Rift S, because of its motion tracking cubes you had to install.
VR i feel is very important to have motion tracking.
Why else is it VR?

You need to read more. The motion tracking is exemplary. Some of the people who tried the demo, were hesitant because most XR headsets make them queasy, and the reported zero queasiness here. If motion tracking were even slightly off, the sensitive would be getting motion sick.

 

[aigomorla]

You need to read more. The motion tracking is exemplary. Some of the people who tried the demo, were hesitant because most XR headsets make them queasy, and the reported zero queasiness here. If motion tracking were even slightly off, the sensitive would be getting motion sick.

Compared to dedicated motion tracking modules on the Index and HTC?
OK... if you say so...

Lets see if this unit can and will replace the HTC Pro2 in professional settings.

Just to clarify... when i say motion tracking modules.. i mean these guys:

https://www.amazon.com/HTC-Vive-Tracker-3-0-Base-Station/dp/B09L4XK3RN

Not ones built onto the headset, but actual boxes you setup like speakers around a spatial area you are standing.

 

[Heartbreaker]

You are missing my point when I say it is fake AR. This is VR, in that the entire experience is enclosed in a headset. I agree, current AR is not good. But I also think that VR is not something that can work long term due to all the problems of an enclosed solution.

Enclosed headset or open headset is not what makes something AR or VR. It's not about the HW, it's about what you are doing with it.

Probably the biggest widespread, early examples of AR was Pokemon Go.

How "Pokemon Go" Took Augmented Reality Mainstream

“Pokemon Go,” a game that has millions of people roaming around the physical world to capture virtual characters, has established a solid direction for augmented reality while highlighting a potentially lucrative new marketing platform. …Read More

knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu

These days it's common place to use AR on tablets/phones to see a piece of new furniture in your living room before buying it.

 

[WelshBloke]

But you can't have your multi display setup be in the living room, then decide to go lay down and still have access to it and be able to use it. You can't easily travel with a multi display setup. If you don't want to see the very obvious enhancements and convenience and privacy features this brings to personal computing that's fine.

How are you interacting with and what are you doing on all these displays?
I can see that consuming media would be cool, but then you are probably just going to want one display.
If it's a work situation are you using a virtual keyboard? That sounds horrible.
Are you using a real keyboard that you can see on a virtual desk? That sounds disorientating and would only work with you sitting at a desk anyway.
I can see that opening and moving virtual desktops would work well with gestures but actually doing anything productive on them would get tiring very quickly if it involves waving your hands around and messing with virtual keyboards with no tactile response.
It's going to be fun seeing how things work out either way.

 

[aigomorla]

It's not about the HW, it's about what you are doing with it.

uhh no... you got it the other way around.
Its what about the HW that allows you to do what you want with it..

This is what forced me to get 3 units... and all 3 units still felt very lacking with little to no support hence why i dropped VR entirely.

If it's a work situation are you using a virtual keyboard? That sounds horrible.
Are you using a real keyboard that you can see on a virtual desk? That sounds disorientating and would only work with you sitting at a desk anyway.

You can do this pretty well with on a index with motion cubes.
This is why i said those motion tracking devices are very important and the precision of them.

But hey what do i know... i only had 2 units which supported motion tracking modules to begin with, and both ended up being garbage when you tried to play sniper role and look though scope and fire with accuracy.

 

[quikah]

Enclosed headset or open headset is not what makes something AR or VR. It's not about the HW, it's about what you are doing with it.

Probably the biggest widespread, early examples of AR was Pokemon Go.

How "Pokemon Go" Took Augmented Reality Mainstream

“Pokemon Go,” a game that has millions of people roaming around the physical world to capture virtual characters, has established a solid direction for augmented reality while highlighting a potentially lucrative new marketing platform. …Read More

knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu

These days it's common place to use AR on tablets/phones to see a piece of new furniture in your living room before buying it.

With a current AR headset when looking at reality, you are looking at a real thing with your eyes (through a piece of glass). With this you are looking at a video screen for everything. I don't consider that real AR.

 

[Heartbreaker]

How are you interacting with and what are you doing on all these displays?
I can see that consuming media would be cool, but then you are probably just going to want one display.
If it's a work situation are you using a virtual keyboard? That sounds horrible.
Are you using a real keyboard that you can see on a virtual desk? That sounds disorientating and would only work with you sitting at a desk anyway.
I can see that opening and moving virtual desktops would work well with gestures but actually doing anything productive on them would get tiring very quickly if it involves waving your hands around and messing with virtual keyboards with no tactile response.
It's going to be fun seeing how things work out either way.

Not sure where all the keyboard a display confusion is coming from. Did you watch the presentations?

It works with a real keyboard wherever you can have a enough stability to use a real keyboard. The visual fidelity was good enough for people to read their phones, and watches through the headset display, so using a KB won't be an issue. Obvious if you need to type a lot, a real KB is the way to go. But you could use a virtual KB or dictation if you didn't want to use a real one.

For the displays, you just have to break the mindset of being confined to monitor at all. Your goal here is not to have multiple virtual monitors, it's to have ZERO monitors, and to just place as many applications windows around you as you want/need.

 

[WelshBloke]

You can do this pretty well with on a index with motion cubes.
This is why i said those motion tracking devices are very important and the precision of them.

Can you explain this a bit more for someone unfamiliar with current VR/AR stuff?
Do you just use a normal keyboard but you can see it through the goggles or doe you sort of wiggle your fingers on a virtual keyboard?

 

[Heartbreaker]

With a current AR headset when looking at reality, you are looking at a real thing with your eyes (through a piece of glass). With this you are looking at a video screen for everything. I don't consider that real AR.

That's rather narrow way of looking at it, but you can be wrong if you want.

AR is not limited to the narrow niche, of clear glasses.

 

[WelshBloke]

Not sure where all the keyboard a display confusion is coming from. Did you watch the presentations?

I was replying to someone that was talking about using multiple screens while out and about or while lying in bed.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I was replying to someone that was talking about using multiple screens while out and about or while lying in bed.

You can bring a keyboard with you when you travel.

 

[WelshBloke]

You can bring a keyboard with you when you travel.

You seem very hostile to people just asking questions!