Anyone in the Warhammer Online Beta?

[VashHT]

Right could you guys keep the EVE argument somewhere else.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Engraver
I wouldn't count on War's PVP stealing much of anything away. From what I've experience so far, their PVP will be worse than WoW's. There is always the chance they could turn it around, but I highly doubt that. Better off waiting to dismember people in AoC.

Even with the lack of available facts on AoC, I would venture to guess that they are the #1 contender for the time being. We'll see what happens. My guess is that they will only steal a sliver of the pie too. A lot of that will depend on how much they are designing their game with casuals in mind. If they focus too much on the hardcore MMO players (both in PvE and PvP) then their customer base will be small and their stolen customer base will be even smaller despite how much "better" the game actually is. That and they will have to battle the WoW addiction of course.

Well from what I have heard of AoC it won't be PvP focused and will have enclosed environments that are fenced off by invisible walls ( ala Guild Wars ) to steer players according to some people who have played the beta. It will also come with instanced zones which I find completely annoying.

http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?p=1605378

All zones are separated by instances? Kind of like Hellgate London but more traditional MMO style? If I am understanding you correctly I can guarantee that will be a primary reason why AoC won't stand a chance against WoW. That sort of thing completely kills the idea of making the world feel massive and active since part of that feeling comes from the world being unified and not separated like that.

 

[Lamont Burns]

WAR PvP is stand around and click 1/4 of the buttons you might in a WoW PvP setting. FUN.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Subyman

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: CVSiN
You want PVP that requires real skill.. try 5v5 Arenas..
thats where competitive skill based PVP is going.

While I do play WoW, I can't fathom how anyone can seriously consider arenas to be "good pvp".
They're more like a small scale match of Quake or CS, minus about 80% of the skill required.

There is no way you could just go into 1800+ arena and think you can even have a remote chance of winning unless you are a skilled player. Arena does take skill especially the equally geared arena tourny bliz is running.

Heh, a guy in my guild paid a more dedicated PvP'er a couple of thousand gold for a boost to 2000 so he could get his shoulders.
He's...less than gifted at playing.

Even I was up to 1980 or thereabouts during Season 2, and we didn't play a whole lot.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Subyman

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: CVSiN
You want PVP that requires real skill.. try 5v5 Arenas..
thats where competitive skill based PVP is going.

While I do play WoW, I can't fathom how anyone can seriously consider arenas to be "good pvp".
They're more like a small scale match of Quake or CS, minus about 80% of the skill required.

There is no way you could just go into 1800+ arena and think you can even have a remote chance of winning unless you are a skilled player. Arena does take skill especially the equally geared arena tourny bliz is running.

Heh, a guy in my guild paid a more dedicated PvP'er a couple of thousand gold for a boost to 2000 so he could get his shoulders.
He's...less than gifted at playing.

Even I was up to 1980 or thereabouts during Season 2, and we didn't play a whole lot.

I wish Blizz could find a way to stop this sort of thing from happening. I'm not sure if they can though. It does take away from part of the purpose of the arena.

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
Only if you believe that chasing a carrot on a stick is fun for the rest of your life.

EVE blows away WoW in terms of game play depth, pvp goodness and overall fun. Of course I'll be the first to admit that it has a rather deep and large learning curve but that is to be expected by a game with a lot of depth to it's game play. WoW is popular because it's easy to get into and it appeals to those who have never played a MMO in their life or do not have high expectations in terms of the depth of game play, especially in pvp and with players contributing to/shaping the in game world via their own actions.

Gimme a break. In eve, you are one of 3 things, a carebear in empire so you are only doing missions, a lowsec pirate ganking haulers, afkers, and newbs who are lost, or in a 0.0 pvp corp where you don't dare pvp solo unless you are in a super duper fast interceptor. And because of that if you don't fly an intercepter or a cloaker you spend most of your time farming rocks, killing NPC pirates, and spinning your ship in your hanger till corpmates log on to do something. Eve almost had it but their skill system, while good in some ways, sucks overall.

Eve WAS good, but since it's so hard for newbs to "catch up" to vets it's going to be quite unfun.

Trust me, Eve is for narcissistic sociopaths.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Owls
Eve WAS good, but since it's so hard for newbs to "catch up" to vets it's going to be quite unfun.

This is a big challenge in general when it comes to today's MMOs and it will be a challenge for War Hammer as well. I believe it is a cornerstone when it comes to why no MMO has come even close to putting a thorn in WoW's side. It is especially challenging when it comes to PvP oriented MMOs because the people who are attracted to that sort of game tend to be the same kind of MMO gamer that really does not like the idea of new players being capable of rising up in power at a fast rate in order to have a chance at being competitive. They want to always be the best because they feel they deserve it considering all of the hours of game play they put in. Whether or not they are justified in their reasoning is up for debate, but I believe that it doesn't matter either way. I feel that if any MMO wants to stand a chance against WoW they need to appeal to casuals and they need to do it well. If they want to beat WoW then not only do they need to appeal to casuals, but they also need to do what no MMO has done before which is to also appeal to the hardcore PvE players AND the hardcore PvP players simultaneously while causing as little interference with each other as possible. We are probably a long ways away from that happening though.

 

[VashHT]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Owls
Eve WAS good, but since it's so hard for newbs to "catch up" to vets it's going to be quite unfun.

This is a big challenge in general when it comes to today's MMOs and it will be a challenge for War Hammer as well. I believe it is a cornerstone when it comes to why no MMO has come even close to putting a thorn in WoW's side. It is especially challenging when it comes to PvP oriented MMOs because the people who are attracted to that sort of game tend to be the same kind of MMO gamer that really does not like the idea of new players being capable of rising up in power at a fast rate in order to have a chance at being competitive. They want to always be the best because they feel they deserve it considering all of the hours of game play they put in. Whether or not they are justified in their reasoning is up for debate, but I believe that it doesn't matter either way. I feel that if any MMO wants to stand a chance against WoW they need to appeal to casuals and they need to do it well. If they want to beat WoW then not only do they need to appeal to casuals, but they also need to do what no MMO has done before which is to also appeal to the hardcore PvE players AND the hardcore PvP players simultaneously while causing as little interference with each other as possible. We are probably a long ways away from that happening though.

I don't agree with your mentality, I think PVP gamers are far more willing to allow newbs to level extremely fast. Look at Guild Wars, extremely fast to level and equip your guy, and eventually you can just instantly make your guys after you unlock what you need. I can't speak for all people, but I feel having an even playing field is far more important than the time it takes to get there. To add to this, you can't really get into the top PVP without going through a ton of boring PVE in almost every game, I can't see why hardcore PVP players would want to make it take even longer to get up there. Your view sounds a little biased, like all serious pvp players are some spoiled kid who always want an unfair advantage.

However, I have often seen PVE supporters saying they want more to show for their time, and that they should have better stuff for more time invested.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: VashHT

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Owls
Eve WAS good, but since it's so hard for newbs to "catch up" to vets it's going to be quite unfun.

This is a big challenge in general when it comes to today's MMOs and it will be a challenge for War Hammer as well. I believe it is a cornerstone when it comes to why no MMO has come even close to putting a thorn in WoW's side. It is especially challenging when it comes to PvP oriented MMOs because the people who are attracted to that sort of game tend to be the same kind of MMO gamer that really does not like the idea of new players being capable of rising up in power at a fast rate in order to have a chance at being competitive. They want to always be the best because they feel they deserve it considering all of the hours of game play they put in. Whether or not they are justified in their reasoning is up for debate, but I believe that it doesn't matter either way. I feel that if any MMO wants to stand a chance against WoW they need to appeal to casuals and they need to do it well. If they want to beat WoW then not only do they need to appeal to casuals, but they also need to do what no MMO has done before which is to also appeal to the hardcore PvE players AND the hardcore PvP players simultaneously while causing as little interference with each other as possible. We are probably a long ways away from that happening though.

I don't agree with your mentality, I think PVP gamers are far more willing to allow newbs to level extremely fast. Look at Guild Wars, extremely fast to level and equip your guy, and eventually you can just instantly make your guys after you unlock what you need. I can't speak for all people, but I feel having an even playing field is far more important than the time it takes to get there. To add to this, you can't really get into the top PVP without going through a ton of boring PVE in almost every game, I can't see why hardcore PVP players would want to make it take even longer to get up there. Your view sounds a little biased, like all serious pvp players are some spoiled kid who always want an unfair advantage.

However, I have often seen PVE supporters saying they want more to show for their time, and that they should have better stuff for more time invested.

I think you read my post and interpreted it as more of an absolute. I don't believe all PvP players think like that. I just claimed that PvP MMOs tend to attract that kind of gamer more so than a PvE oriented MMO. That does not mean I am claiming that the same mentality does not exist amongst some PvE players too. However, in my experience with MMOs, the PvP players are generally more competitive with each other which leads to the types of challenges that I described.

In any case, whether I am wrong about that mentality or not really doesn't take away from the main point I was trying to make when it comes to the challenges that are presented to those who wish to develop a very successful MMO that can compete with Blizzard. The game must be able to appeal to both casuals and the hardcore players in both PvE and PvP simultaneously.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Owlsve almost had it but their skill system, while good in some ways, sucks overall.

Eve WAS good, but since it's so hard for newbs to "catch up" to vets it's going to be quite unfun.

While I don't agree with all of what you wrote, this part I do agree with.
I tried it out, I liked it in some ways, I disliked it in others, but the skill system broke it for me.
I like the fact that it makes time invested less important.
However, I dislike the fact that no matter what I do, there is no possible way to catch up to more veteran players.

It's kinda like having a sports contest where the ultimate score is derived from your age.

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Owlsve almost had it but their skill system, while good in some ways, sucks overall.

Eve WAS good, but since it's so hard for newbs to "catch up" to vets it's going to be quite unfun.

While I don't agree with all of what you wrote, this part I do agree with.
I tried it out, I liked it in some ways, I disliked it in others, but the skill system broke it for me.
I like the fact that it makes time invested less important.
However, I dislike the fact that no matter what I do, there is no possible way to catch up to more veteran players.

It's kinda like having a sports contest where the ultimate score is derived from your age.

The outright ruthlessness of the PVP wore off after a while and I realized the true core of the game. FYI, I had a 42million SP character. I "sold" it for a pretty penny