Anyone else VERY underwhelmed with Llano's GPU performance?

[badb0y]

I just bought one

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DV7T-SE-I5-2...73100284?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item53e7e91efc

I've bought several DV7s for friends, they always come in minty perfect (mind the store obviously, check ratings/feedback), super great deal for the $$$!!

The 5850s are out there too, IIRC from the same vendor.



I'll take pics and run some free benchies if you like It will arrive Thursday afternoon.

Item condition:Manufacturer refurbished
You are comparing a manufacturer refurbished price to a retail price.

Llano based manufacturer refurbs will probably go for 4-500$ if the retail is around 700$.

 

[Arkaign]

@Arkaign
You're comparing a manufacturer refurbished laptop from eBay with a retail price for Llano on equal footing?

Not necessarily, but it's 9000 times better performance (only slight exaggeration), so I'm putting my $ where my mouth is. It has a warranty, and I've had a couple of older ones with zero problems I've had more trouble with other new laptops than the DV7 refurbs.

 

[SlowSpyder]

35 watt for four cores and 400 SP's... CF another card with 400 SP's and we would have a low-ish power portable and capable bitminer.

 

[Vesku]

Not necessarily, but it's 9000 times better performance (only slight exaggeration), so I'm putting my $ where my mouth is. It has a warranty, and I've had a couple of older ones with zero problems I've had more trouble with other new laptops than the DV7 refurbs.

I don't really consider a 90 day warranty as much more than a not DoA guarantee. But looks like a good deal for someone who can fix their own laptop problems, I'll personally be bookmarking this. But we are discussing retail laptops in the thread I believe, doubtful we'll see many used Llano postings.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

The only thing underwhelming is that the biggest question pre Llano launch was "How much will the 400 cores be bottleneck by limited bandwidth?" was left unanswered.

Is there a Athlon II X4 + 5570 (at similar core speeds to the 6620G) vs Llano review?

Anand did test with different RAM speeds, and there was a distinct and significant advantage of using DDR3-1866 over 1333. I crunched the numbers in the four games he tested.

At 1280x1024 DDR3-1866 gave an average 25% performance boost over 1333.
At 1024x768 DDR3-1866 gave an average 22% performance boost over 1333.

So there is a significant bottleneck when just using the typical DDR3-1333. Now what we don't know is how much of a bottleneck 1866 is undergoing.

Pardon my previous lack of precision. I think you're making a very valid point, and the natural question is "What can Llano do that Intel HD 2/3000 and Radeon HD 4250 can't do?"

Anand averaged the performance boost over Intel HD 3000 to be 58%. And in several of his benchmarks that boost brought games that weren't playable or barely playable on the Intel graphics into playable or more playable on the AMD APU.

 

[Rifter]

Anand did test with different RAM speeds, and there was a distinct and significant advantage of using DDR3-1866 over 1333. I crunched the numbers in the four games he tested.

At 1280x1024 DDR3-1866 gave an average 25% performance boost over 1333.
At 1024x768 DDR3-1866 gave an average 22% performance boost over 1333.

So there is a significant bottleneck when just using the typical DDR3-1333. Now what we don't know is how much of a bottleneck 1866 is undergoing.



Anand averaged the performance boost over Intel HD 3000 to be 58%. And in several of his benchmarks that boost brought games that weren't playable or barely playable on the Intel graphics into playable or more playable on the AMD APU.

Where did you see this? i didnt notice anything but 1333 results in the desktop article, was it in the notebook article?

So this does indeed prove there is a large memory bottleneck, AMD should consider 512MB of on chip memory for the GPU.

also i agree its way better than SB graphics i just dont think its by enough to matter, or make games really playable. It might be good for the laptop market but i dont see it being a game changer on the desktop front.

I should have mentioned in the OP i was strictly talking about the desktop chip with this post as mobile gaming has zero intrest to me, i own a laptop and do game on it when i have to but only play older non FPS usually turn based games, or use emulators to play SNES or genesis games.

 

[cotak13]

Where did you see this? i didnt notice anything but 1333 results in the desktop article, was it in the notebook article?

So this does indeed prove there is a large memory bottleneck, AMD should consider 512MB of on chip memory for the GPU.

also i agree its way better than SB graphics i just dont think its by enough to matter, or make games really playable. It might be good for the laptop market but i dont see it being a game changer on the desktop front.

I should have mentioned in the OP i was strictly talking about the desktop chip with this post as mobile gaming has zero intrest to me, i own a laptop and do game on it when i have to but only play older non FPS usually turn based games, or use emulators to play SNES or genesis games.

I believe if you look around the internet AMD itself has said over and over discrete GPUs aren't going away in the near future.

I think you are looking at the elephant's tail and missing the elephant's butt.

The whole point of the APU is a flanking maneuver around Intel's process dominance by moving into heterogeneous computing. For AMD this is a way to capitalize on their strength to hopefully end run around Intel's.

By putting out these mass market APUs that gets into as many computers out there as possible the hope is to built a user base that makes it attractive for developers to make software which takes advantage of heterogeneous compute to deliver a user experience that Intel cannot match.

So whether Llano APU is good for gaming is really besides the real objective for AMD. It's a selling point that it provides competent graphics for low end to lower mid end systems. And certainly pushing gaming and the "visual experience" on low end systems to higher levels is another way to attack intel's dominance.

But it's not going to and never was intended to impress people who want top of the line graphics performance.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I game, and would be VERY interested in one of these in a laptop, esp. if it hung out at the $500-600 dollar price point.

One of my biggest gripes with gaming machines is their footprint: they almost always end up 15" or larger fatties with terrible battery life, tons of weight and good luck having children if you actually keep it on your lap. When they're smaller the price shoots through the roof and you lose a ton of performance. If these find their way into something like the Dmz1's form factor I would be there in a split second.

I want a laptop to be portable first and foremost. I have a nice powerful desktop machine for session gaming, but in a laptop I am looking for battery life and portability (footprint & weight). Today I'd either have to totally forgo gaming entirely to get a small machine within my budget or throw my budget out the window and live with an ugly little M11x or something. Llano offers a real opportunity to fix that problem.

I don't think I'm alone in this. Watching people lug their "gaming" machines around in college, desperately seeking a seat next to a power outlet and trying to keep it balanced on the tiny writing surface in front of them provided much entertainment and is something I'd like to avoid.

-Ultimately-
Whats really missing from this picture is how the 240SP dual core variants of the processor perform, as they will undoubtedly be on the lower end of the pricing curve but given how bandwidth starved the 400SP version seems to be, there might not be any really appreciable loss in performance. Thoughts?

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Where did you see this? i didnt notice anything but 1333 results in the desktop article, was it in the notebook article?

On this page of the desktop article, just compare the two red bars:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/amd-llano-desktop-performance-preview/3

Llano graphics in notebooks is far more impressive than on desktops. Llano does indeed compete with mid-range discrete mobile GPUs, and if AMD gets the Asynchronous Crossfire working then it would be one heck of a hybrid setup for those looking for the best gaming performance per battery life

 

[Rifter]

I game, and would be VERY interested in one of these in a laptop, esp. if it hung out at the $500-600 dollar price point.

One of my biggest gripes with gaming machines is their footprint: they almost always end up 15" or larger fatties with terrible battery life, tons of weight and good luck having children if you actually keep it on your lap. When they're smaller the price shoots through the roof and you lose a ton of performance. If these find their way into something like the Dmz1's form factor I would be there in a split second.

I want a laptop to be portable first and foremost. I have a nice powerful desktop machine for session gaming, but in a laptop I am looking for battery life and portability (footprint & weight). Today I'd either have to totally forgo gaming entirely to get a small machine within my budget or throw my budget out the window and live with an ugly little M11x or something. Llano offers a real opportunity to fix that problem.

I don't think I'm alone in this. Watching people lug their "gaming" machines around in college, desperately seeking a seat next to a power outlet and trying to keep it balanced on the tiny writing surface in front of them provided much entertainment and is something I'd like to avoid.

-Ultimately-
Whats really missing from this picture is how the 240SP dual core variants of the processor perform, as they will undoubtedly be on the lower end of the pricing curve but given how bandwidth starved the 400SP version seems to be, there might not be any really appreciable loss in performance. Thoughts?

I agree that for laptops they will be great, if they are priced right. They need to be under $600 as mentioned already in this thread you can beat them for $700 with a intel CPU and either ATI or Nvidia mid range mobile GPU, and then you will also have the advantage of a more powerful CPU.

The dual core version might be alot closer to the 400sp performance as you mentioned because of memory bottleneck i agree. I think they will need to offer these chips with 1800-2000Mhz ram for serious gaming laptops.

 

[Rifter]

On this page of the desktop article, just compare the two red bars:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/amd-llano-desktop-performance-preview/3

Llano graphics in notebooks is far more impressive than on desktops. Llano does indeed compete with mid-range discrete mobile GPUs, and if AMD gets the Asynchronous Crossfire working then it would be one heck of a hybrid setup for those looking for the best gaming performance per battery life

wow i could have sworn that was not there last night, thanks alot!

I agree on laptops this is a very much bigger deal, i really should have specified in the OP i was trying to discuss the desktop chips.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I game, and would be VERY interested in one of these in a laptop, esp. if it hung out at the $500-600 dollar price point.

One of my biggest gripes with gaming machines is their footprint: they almost always end up 15" or larger fatties with terrible battery life, tons of weight and good luck having children if you actually keep it on your lap. When they're smaller the price shoots through the roof and you lose a ton of performance. If these find their way into something like the Dmz1's form factor I would be there in a split second.

I want a laptop to be portable first and foremost. I have a nice powerful desktop machine for session gaming, but in a laptop I am looking for battery life and portability (footprint & weight). Today I'd either have to totally forgo gaming entirely to get a small machine within my budget or throw my budget out the window and live with an ugly little M11x or something. Llano offers a real opportunity to fix that problem.

I don't think I'm alone in this. Watching people lug their "gaming" machines around in college, desperately seeking a seat next to a power outlet and trying to keep it balanced on the tiny writing surface in front of them provided much entertainment and is something I'd like to avoid.

-Ultimately-
Whats really missing from this picture is how the 240SP dual core variants of the processor perform, as they will undoubtedly be on the lower end of the pricing curve but given how bandwidth starved the 400SP version seems to be, there might not be any really appreciable loss in performance. Thoughts?

Just FYI, the A6-3410MX and A8-3500M variants should be in $600 laptops. If the test laptops that AMD gave to reviewers are any indication, they're mostly gonna be 13-15" laptops from around 4 pounds to 5 pounds. 10-12" is Brazos market, though given the relative battery life I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturers make a 12" A4 laptop that's $500 and has 5+ hours of battery life.

In terms of gaming alone, I fear I may be in the list of the people you mentioned: my laptop weighs 7 pounds and has a 15" chassis and a low battery life of only 2:30 hours, but it has a GTX 260M and a C2D P7450, which I OCed to 2.7GHz with no problems. I paid $650 for it on Newegg. I think it was a good deal. Looks like there's still no laptop for the price that has higher GPU performance.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Yeah, no it doesn't. Maybe you need an eye check. It's pretty much the exact same speed.

And you conveniently forgot that the Core i7 920 in your link gives the 5570 a huge advantage.

/facepalm.jpg

SO what did you expect an AMD cpu for a gaming machine LOL he could have found a SB using the 5570. I thought llano IGP did OK but fell way short of the hype . Had it not been for the hype I probably would have bought one . But now I won't even by the AMD discrete cards . NV will do .With INTEL processor for kick butt gaming pc. But for a cheap notebook . I may have bought one . Than the xfire results that were hyped really tore it for me. That turned out as I said it would . a little common senxe goes along ways . But reallity is Its is a nice litte IGP , That could never live up to the hype.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

SO what did you expect an AMD cpu for a gaming machine LOL he could have found a SB using the 5570. I thought llano IGP did OK but fell way short of the hype . Had it not been for the hype I probably would have bought one . But now I won't even by the AMD discrete cards . NV will do .With INTEL processor for kick butt gaming pc. But for a cheap notebook . I may have bought one . Than the xfire results that were hyped really tore it for me. That turned out as I said it would . a little common senxe goes along ways . But reallity is Its is a nice litte IGP , That could never live up to the hype.

Llano is not for gaming-only machines. And it could definitely live up to the hype. Sure, it's 20% slower than the Core i5 when it comes to multi-threaded CPU performance, but it's 2x faster in GPU performance. That, and it has a bit better battery life. If you want good general performance all around, at $600 for a 3500M laptop it's gonna be hard to beat.

 

[Rifter]

SO what did you expect an AMD cpu for a gaming machine LOL he could have found a SB using the 5570. I thought llano IGP did OK but fell way short of the hype . Had it not been for the hype I probably would have bought one . But now I won't even by the AMD discrete cards . NV will do .With INTEL processor for kick butt gaming pc. But for a cheap notebook . I may have bought one . Than the xfire results that were hyped really tore it for me. That turned out as I said it would . a little common senxe goes along ways . But reallity is Its is a nice litte IGP , That could never live up to the hype.

This is pretty much how i feel, thats why i made this post. Without all the hype it probably wouldnt seem so underwhelming. Now its just meh, $40 discreet card still blows the doors off it.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

This is pretty much how i feel, thats why i made this post. Without all the hype it probably wouldnt seem so underwhelming. Now its just meh, $40 discreet card still blows the doors off it.

Are you trolling again? It's the same performance as a Radeon HD 5570, a $60 desktop GPU.

Also, as for the links to the desktop Llano GPU in the other thread, that seems to be slower than the laptop GPU, not to mention that the 5570 was tested with an i7 920 at 3.3GHz vs the stock Llano APU.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Well duh... the i7 is clearly boosting the scores by alot, because of the low resolution.

Anyways without a discrete GPU added into the mix, the Llano is still doing x2 performance or so of the Sandy Bridge iGPUs, when gameing.


Much better aniso filtering when compared to the CPU/GPU competition from Intel (image quality):

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/AMD-Llano-APU-Review/Product-Position-and-Graphics-Engine

Intel HD3000 on the left, Llano IGP on the right.


If you had the choice between a Llano Laptop or a SandyBridge Laptop (without a discrete in it), then the Llano is clearly the better choice for gameing (better performance). And for Image quality with video playback, or while gameing.









*****

Also note that the Llano that Anandtech is reviewing is a 35w APU (1.5ghz), that uses DDR-1333.

Desktop versions will come out in the 2.5ghz range, and you ll be able to put DDR3-1866 in it.

There is a desktop version overclocked to 3.7ghz that shows a Llano scoreing 6200+ points in 3Dmark Vantage (with a overclocked iGPU and CPU@3.7ghz).
(i could only find a pic of the 6120 score, but theres one thats nearly 6300 out there too)

I believe a Sandybridge gets like ~2500 score with its iGPU, in 3Dmark Vantage.

source:
http://www.techpowerup.com/147353/AMD-A-Series-APU-Smashes-IGP-Performance-Records...Surprise.html

Dang I was supposeing that these notebooks would operate at native res . At that res it wasn't 2x performance increase . If you turned up the eyecandy it looked a lot better but still not a gamer at all . But yes llano is alot faster than SB IGP . Not alot of makers using the HD3000 tho their aiding discrete graphics which by these reviews so far is a must for both setups .

 

[Arkaign]

I don't really consider a 90 day warranty as much more than a not DoA guarantee. But looks like a good deal for someone who can fix their own laptop problems, I'll personally be bookmarking this. But we are discussing retail laptops in the thread I believe, doubtful we'll see many used Llano postings.

That's fair enough. I'm super happy with the deal though. I just sold the one I just had 9 months after I bought it for nearly enough to buy this. My last one that I bought for about the same price had a C2D, 17.3", BD, HD4650 1GB, 500GB, 4GB DDR3, etc, worked absolutely awesome and never had the slightest hint of the problem. It came out of the box looking like it had never been touched by human hands either. Referred a couple of other folks who were equally pleased.

If you want, I can take pics of this one when it comes in and during unpack/bootup to see if it's as minty and pm it.

I'm still disinterested personally in Llano. It rhymes with guano, which seems appropriate. The first gen of anything usually sucks though. At least this is mediocre. At this point I'd much rather have an Intel core i-series with even a low end discrete AMD gpu though.

 

[Rifter]

Are you trolling again? It's the same performance as a Radeon HD 5570, a $60 desktop GPU.

Also, as for the links to the desktop Llano GPU in the other thread, that seems to be slower than the laptop GPU, not to mention that the 5570 was tested with an i7 920 at 3.3GHz vs the stock Llano APU.

Except its not as fast as a desktop 5570, and a $35 GT 240 still beats it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Llano is not for gaming-only machines. And it could definitely live up to the hype. Sure, it's 20% slower than the Core i5 when it comes to multi-threaded CPU performance, but it's 2x faster in GPU performance. That, and it has a bit better battery life. If you want good general performance all around, at $600 for a 3500M laptop it's gonna be hard to beat.

What core i5 you talking about. Not a 4 core thats for fact. You have to be referring to a 2 core version . So it would be nice if you say which I5 your referring to .

NO it didn't even come close to the hype . But your so sure I think I had better have another look I may have missed something .

 

[Rifter]

What core i5 you talking about. Not a 4 core thats for fact. You have to be referring to a 2 core version . So it would be nice if you say which I5 your referring to .

NO it didn't even come close to the hype . But your so sure I think I had better have another look I may have missed something .

I dont think there is any doubt its faster than SB IGP, anand tested it out to 58% faster.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I agree on laptops this is a very much bigger deal, i really should have specified in the OP i was trying to discuss the desktop chips.

-Yeah well not many people gave a flying turd about this on the desktop variant, there is no meaningful shortage of capable & cheap GPU power there. The laptop variant is where the action is at, given that laptops are getting ever more popular with "the masses" and getting *decent* GPU action without sacrificing the things that make a laptop a laptop is reall hard to come by.

*SHEESH* SOME PEOPLE

 

[Rifter]

-Yeah well not many people gave a flying turd about this on the desktop variant, there is no meaningful shortage of capable & cheap GPU power there. The laptop variant is where the action is at, given that laptops are getting ever more popular with "the masses" and getting *decent* GPU action without sacrificing the things that make a laptop a laptop is reall hard to come by.

*SHEESH* SOME PEOPLE

yeah i know, but there are desktop chips out so AMD seems to think its a viable desktop option. And if they can do something about the memory bottleneck and actually obtain 5570 discreet performance they might be right.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

What core i5 you talking about. Not a 4 core thats for fact. You have to be referring to a 2 core version . So it would be nice if you say which I5 your referring to .

NO it didn't even come close to the hype . But your so sure I think I had better have another look I may have missed something .

*sigh*

I've already mentioned this like a million times: I'm referring to mobile Llano. Like I've also said, I think Llano is mostly irrelevant for desktops because Deneb can now be had very cheap, unless desktop Llano manages to cost the same and OCs more.

And yes, it does live up to the hype, completely. You trade off some CPU performance to get a huge amount more GPU performance and a more balanced platform. Sorry you can't see this.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I wish I wouldn't have looked . This llano is AMDS top fusion part .

I see were you got your numbers from. That fine your doing a dollar compare . IF how ever we do a compare against intels Best using IGP against llano and throw out the cost factor the picture is not as you paint . it. In non 3d apps the differance in productivity is in average 300%+ If you buy a pc for productivity the battery life is misleading as the top Intel SB M would be done 3x sooner . I doubt lano has 3x better battery life running the same productivity . As for 3d graphics I won't debate that llano is faster .

But I would never throw away $700 dollars on a slow gamer and really bad productivity . If you want to do a $$$ compare that OK by me , but throw the $$ out the window 99% would take SB highend put a 460m in there and call it a day.

But ya the llano does OK against the 2 core , Can't wait to see how Intel pricies the 2 core 4 threaded M. I would price that cpu and only that cpu at $50 dollars and call it a day and get IB ready .