Anyone else VERY underwhelmed with Llano's GPU performance?

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
lol. No, this is AnandTech, a fantasy land where everyone has their i7-2600Ks and CrossFired 6990s at 100% load 24/7.



Not to mention just plain stupid.

The vast majority of consumers use either years-old systems or modern budget systems. Most of the people who buy mid- to high-end systems don't even utilize what their computers are capable of, they're either buying high-end stuff because of prestige or to avoid having to buy a computer more than twice per decade.

Llano is meant to do one thing: provide a more compelling all-around computing experience for the average consumer. Not the average AnandTech forum participant. I think it does that admirably. Intel's second-gen i3 CPUs are far, far more CPU muscle than the average user needs, and no, that's not going to change anytime soon. I've put together scores and scores of Stars-CPU systems and no one - no one - complains that they're too slow. I regularly ask people if they can tell the difference between an i3 and an Athlon II system and let them try them out side by side. They usually can't.



lol. No shit!

On one hand you are saying these people dont care or wont use the power given to them. In other words not care. Then you turn around and say Llano gives them a better experience. Which is it? Will they notice or not? You seem to think they wont by your current experiences and I agree. And that is the point I am making. These low end machines are bought by people who play farmville and solitaire. It addresses a problem that isnt there.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
define real world gaming.

Angry Birds HD Free on Chrome right in your browser

:biggrin:

360

yea i know i know pc is much better but at that budget just get a console.

Exactly. In all seriousness though, for the average person (non PC gamer) to play games on a budget, it probably makes a lot more sense to get a Wii for $149 or Xbox360 for $199 or even PS Vita for $250. Those same individuals would probably be much more interested in the console style games too. They probably aren't BF3 gamers that's for sure.

Still, AMD should set up booths at BestBuy with WoW and Sims on 2 comparable systems (HD3000 vs. Llano) side-by-side to actually show that their user experience is superior. I never understand why their marketing department lacks basic marketing skills. It's such a simple concept!
 
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Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
0
71
On one hand you are saying these people dont care or wont use the power given to them. In other words not care. Then you turn around and say Llano gives them a better experience. Which is it? Will they notice or not? You seem to think they wont by your current experiences and I agree. And that is the point I am making. These low end machines are bought by people who play farmville and solitaire. It addresses a problem that isnt there.

Pardon my previous lack of precision. I think you're making a very valid point, and the natural question is "What can Llano do that Intel HD 2/3000 and Radeon HD 4250 can't do?"
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
On its own, Llano is obviously not for gaming and it really should not be presented as a contender as that sets false expectations.

The platform though, which supports xfire, can be augmented to produce a potent gaming system if desired.

The point of Llano though is the corporate desktop and corporate laptop where productivity losses from Intel's craptastic IGP hardware and craptastic drivers are world renowned for all the wrong reasons.

Llano is for productivity where heavy lifting by the CPU is not a persistent necessity, nor where heavy lifting by the GPU is required.

You don't want Llano at work if your computer is near 100% fully loaded with video encoding jobs all day long.

Likewise you don't want Llano if you intentions are to play Dirt3, DA2, or Crysis2 on a 24" 1080P display 6hrs/day.

Bulldozer and/or 68xx/69xx components are more what you need if you are using your computer for that stuff.

But if you just want a rig that works, doesn't have aero driver crashes every other day (my DELL laptop with Intel IGP has this feature) and is nice and snappy when multitasking (productivity and efficiency) then you will probably be quite pleased with the relatively low cost option that llano brings to the market IMO.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
0
71
On its own, Llano is obviously not for gaming and it really should not be presented as a contender as that sets false expectations.

The platform though, which supports xfire, can be augmented to produce a potent gaming system if desired.

I mostly agree with everything else you said except this - and I strongly disagree with your statement that Llano is not for gaming. If you look at the benchmarks on the AnandTech review, you get these comparisons between the A8-3500M APU (with the HD 6620G on-die GPU) vs. the most powerful Core i7 (with HD 3000) laptop:

BFBC2: 48 vs 35
Civ 5: 29 vs 18
DiRT 2: 68 vs 51
L4D2: 67 vs 53
Mafia 2: 34 vs 18
Mass Effect 2: 52 vs 42
Metro 2033: 29 vs 18
Stalker Pripyat: 62 vs 38
TW Shogun 2: 79 vs 66

Those are all at low settings in 1333 x 768, which for a laptop is very realistic and a good yardstick. You can see from those games that the difference between Llano's GPU and HD 3000 is striking. BFBC2 with Llano is fine vs acceptable with HD 3000. Civ 5 with Llano is acceptable vs unacceptable with HD 3000. Dirt 2 and L4D2 will look better on Llano. Mafia 2 is acceptable with Llano vs unacceptable with HD 3000. Mass Effect will look better on Llano. Metro 2033 is acceptable on Llano vs unacceptable on HD 3000. Stalker looks much better on Llano. TW Shogun is moot, I doubt anyone can really differentiate 79 vs 66 FPS.

Keep in mind this is the top end Llano vs the top end i7. Llano laptops will be cheaper. They will have equal to if not better than battery life. They offer a remarkably better mobile gaming experience than even the highest-end non-discrete Intel offering - in some cases, they turn an unplayable game into a playable game. Yes, the CPU itself is underwhelming compared to the Core series, but so what? A 911 Turbo is hella faster than a Corolla, but if you're not racing, a Corolla makes more sense because it's cheaper. Most people are not racing their CPUs.

The above points are why I will be heartily recommended Llano laptops to gamers who simply can't afford a discrete card solution, or whose budget doesn't permit a discrete card.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
Actually, it seems pretty good for running basically Athlon II cores. How can a roughly 2x jump in IGP graphics power be VERY underwhelming? I wouldn't call the jump Intel made from first gen i3 igp to SB igp VERY underwhelming either. It's good for everyone when overall system performance is in balance on the OEM boxes.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,697
397
126
The only thing underwhelming is that the biggest question pre Llano launch was "How much will the 400 cores be bottleneck by limited bandwidth?" was left unanswered.

Is there a Athlon II X4 + 5570 (at similar core speeds to the 6620G) vs Llano review?
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
The top desktop SKU doesn't even have turbo and is only clocked at 2.9Ghz, what makes you think they will overclock to 3.7Ghz? Just because a Phenom II will hit 3.7Ghz with ease does not mean that Llano will, it has the extra heat of the GPU to deal without any more surface area to cool it.

Also no one has a 1280 or 1440 monitor anymore, almost all new LCD monitors are 1080P. And the scaling of most monitors especially cheap ones is very bad, when gaming on a LCD doing it at native res is always the best option.


Because theres a dude that got hold of a board + Llano, and OCed it to 3.7ghz and leaked some pictures.

You can find said pictures on TechPowerUP:
http://www.techpowerup.com/147353/AMD-A-Series-APU-Smashes-IGP-Performance-Records...Surprise.html

72b.jpg



Its showing its correct speed.... OCed to 3.7ghz.


"here is my setting
CPU: AMD APU A8-8350 @3.77GHz aircooling
MB: Gigabyte A75M-UD2H
DDR OC 2320MHz
FSB: 145 MHz ( Stock is 100MHz, oc 45%)
iGPU: 870 MHz, (stock is 600 MHz)"

Those settings got the dude over 10,490 in 3Dmark's in 06.
 
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Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
76
91
I'd like to see a Llano in crossfire benchmarked vs an Intel system with an identical GPU. If the Llano system is better or on par while being cheaper, AMD gets my money.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
Pathetic, and completely out of consideration for anyone wanting to play something more complicated than minesweeper.

For ~$600, I can get an i5 HP with BluRay, 6GB DDR3, 750GB HDD, 17.3" LED HD, and a discrete HD5650M 1GB that will blow this turkey out of the water. For a tiny bit more, I can get one with a discrete HD5850M. That's not bad really, and is probably the cheapest way to get a notebook with passable gaming performance. For a desktop, basically *any* $50 discrete card hands this its own ass.

I bet the next one will be considerably better though. Remember Phenom I? It was terrible, whereas PhII was pretty darned good considering.

Link to this $600 laptop deal and the 5850M one? A bit large on the screen but that price is pretty killer.
 

yottabit

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2008
1,619
740
146
I'm underwhelmed, but not VERY underwhelmed. Mostly underwhelmed because of the rumored pricing I've heard floating around, and how the GPU performance varies from chip to chip. If AMD was delivering the kind of GPU performance shown in the testing on a $60-$80 dual core I'd be impressed, but it's not impressive on their top SKU to me. It will be very good for notebooks though.

I would love to see Ivy Bridge and Bulldozer Enchanced really plow through this. I'm running a Core i5 750 and Radeon 5770 right now, and I would love to be able to upgrade to an Ivy Bridge or Bulldozer Enhanced and ditch the graphics card.

Am I the only one that feels like these IGPs aren't as revolutionary as everyone is making them out to be? Everything is 30% increase here, 50% increase there. I think it's only the stagnation of video game development that has *finally* allowed IGPs to play 60 fps... for the same reason a 5770 will run pretty much anything at acceptable settings.

I think there's a lot of untapped potential in Llano with the memory bandwidth, and I think there is a LOT more room for optimization. I'm really curious to see if the GPU can be overclocked.

I like that both developers are taking IGPs more seriously. I do lots of CAD/CAM and need lots of CPU performance and I like a decent IGP to play games here and there. Sadly that means I'd be stuck between the HD3000 on the Core i5 or sacrificing PPC with Llano

EDIT: Just noticed the overclocking results... well that looks promising!
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
I mostly agree with everything else you said except this - and I strongly disagree with your statement that Llano is not for gaming. If you look at the benchmarks on the AnandTech review, you get these comparisons between the A8-3500M APU (with the HD 6620G on-die GPU) vs. the most powerful Core i7 (with HD 3000) laptop:

BFBC2: 48 vs 35
Civ 5: 29 vs 18
DiRT 2: 68 vs 51
L4D2: 67 vs 53
Mafia 2: 34 vs 18
Mass Effect 2: 52 vs 42
Metro 2033: 29 vs 18
Stalker Pripyat: 62 vs 38
TW Shogun 2: 79 vs 66

Those are all at low settings in 1333 x 768, which for a laptop is very realistic and a good yardstick. You can see from those games that the difference between Llano's GPU and HD 3000 is striking. BFBC2 with Llano is fine vs acceptable with HD 3000. Civ 5 with Llano is acceptable vs unacceptable with HD 3000. Dirt 2 and L4D2 will look better on Llano. Mafia 2 is acceptable with Llano vs unacceptable with HD 3000. Mass Effect will look better on Llano. Metro 2033 is acceptable on Llano vs unacceptable on HD 3000. Stalker looks much better on Llano. TW Shogun is moot, I doubt anyone can really differentiate 79 vs 66 FPS.

Keep in mind this is the top end Llano vs the top end i7. Llano laptops will be cheaper. They will have equal to if not better than battery life. They offer a remarkably better mobile gaming experience than even the highest-end non-discrete Intel offering - in some cases, they turn an unplayable game into a playable game. Yes, the CPU itself is underwhelming compared to the Core series, but so what? A 911 Turbo is hella faster than a Corolla, but if you're not racing, a Corolla makes more sense because it's cheaper. Most people are not racing their CPUs.

The above points are why I will be heartily recommended Llano laptops to gamers who simply can't afford a discrete card solution, or whose budget doesn't permit a discrete card.

This benchmarks do not really support your point. There are only 2 real examples where Llano makes a game that was mostly unplayable (<20fps) playable (>30fps). In both cases, the Llano fps is just above the 30fps anyway.

Bottom-line, both Llano and SB make casual gaming possible. SB is a lot faster for the CPU though. I don't see this being a 'game-changer' for AMD, but if they can sell these for less than their SB counterparts, they could improve their mobile marketshare.

I would be embarrassed to actually market this as an 'entry-level' GPU for gaming though. Both of these are very slow, at poor resolutions, and poor quality. This will replace the cheap discrete GPUs and hopefully drive-down the cost of discrete GPUs to make them more affordable.

Edit: We are headed in the right direction with mobile CPUs, however. A start is a start! :)
 
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badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
91
I want to see hybrid crossfire numbers, that may actually make these APUs better for gaming.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
On its own, Llano is obviously not for gaming and it really should not be presented as a contender as that sets false expectations.

I think there is a big discrepancy between what readers for Anandtech - and especially Hardocp- regards as a gaming notebook and the the actual buyers of that stuff.

We both know this will be sold with bad *768 screens, standard HD - even the slow brands and 48whr battery. And because of the excellent battery life even with small batteries, they will sell. Sell, sell, sell. Because you can play nearly all games at the resolution, and be sold at the right price. Damn look at the market. You cant even get your hands on a lenovo x120 in europe yet. A lot of zakate is sold out, what will this not do to the market.

I am writing this on a lattitude e6820 whatever, 98whr, and an SB i5M and a fast SSD, lasting 14 hours. I am a fucking freaking old business nerd, that even own a Nokie e72. And yes it is nerdy. I am a minority in a minority. The rest i facebook, light gaming. Hell they are not using mail anymore. Do they care about high res, and high quality - hell no, they want to trade weapons in their games and build even bigger farms with sheeps whatever.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,571
10,206
126
I'm underwhelmed,

Am I the only one that feels like these IGPs aren't as revolutionary as everyone is making them out to be? Everything is 30% increase here, 50% increase there.
I felt the same way about SSDs. They were faster, sure, but they weren't quite like sticking an afterburner on your ass.
 

LOL_Wut_Axel

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2011
4,310
8
81
I think the bigger problem is that you can get a laptop with faster GPU performance and CPU performance for $700-750 on the Intel side (and these are regular prices, not even deals):

i5 480 + HD5730 for $700:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834246003

i5 480 + GT 540M (which beat 6620 in almost every gaming benchmark in AT's review) for $700:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834115987

i5 480 + HD6550M for $700:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834215095

i5 2410 + GT 540M for $750:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834215110

Every single one of these laptops provides faster CPU & GPU performance (than either the 6620G or the 6630M GPUs) (http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Graphics-Cards-Benchmark-List.844.0.html)

So Llano A-8 based laptop would need to be less than $700. So imho, AMD is going to make the most significant market share gains in the $400 to $600 laptop space by attracting users who aren't willing to spend $700 on a laptop but still want some acceptable budget gaming GPU for WoW and Sims. To me CPU performance from 2007 isn't acceptable when I would generally use a laptop for at least 2 years. So that extra $100-200 amortized over 2 years isn't a lot for something you use 5+ days a week. Then again, in this economy there is a great opportunity to market $400-600 laptops.

Improved battery life is probably the most impressive to me on this new platform. This gives me hope that Bulldozer might actually be competitive with SB in terms of power consumption on the desktop at 32nm.

Also, on this will force Intel to continue to improve CPU graphics now that they have a better competitor. I bet once AMD adds an 800SP GPU core + Bulldozer in 2013 or so, it will become a very strong contender. For now this is a good first step.

Right, but you'll get a lot less battery life on those since most of the designs are based on Arrandale, which is less power efficient than either Sandy Bridge or Llano, not to mention Intel didn't push for high capacity batteries much and as such most only have 4400mAh. AMD is pushing for manufacturers to put 5000mAh batteries and higher on their new laptops, something Intel also did with Sandy Bridge.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Link to this $600 laptop deal and the 5850M one? A bit large on the screen but that price is pretty killer.

I just bought one :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DV7T-SE-I5-2...73100284?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item53e7e91efc

I've bought several DV7s for friends, they always come in minty perfect (mind the store obviously, check ratings/feedback), super great deal for the $$$!!

The 5850s are out there too, IIRC from the same vendor.

I raised my eyebrow on that claim. I would be very surprised if such a link is actually produced. :p

I'll take pics and run some free benchies if you like :) It will arrive Thursday afternoon.
 

iCyborg

Golden Member
Aug 8, 2008
1,344
61
91
@Arkaign
You're comparing a manufacturer refurbished laptop from eBay with a retail price for Llano on equal footing?
 
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