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American solar panel manufactuers file for tarifs on Chinese soloar panels

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/b...l=1&adxnnlx=1319072484-il3Bauz8sFZfWzBKGFQ0Pg

U.S. Solar Firms Accuse Chinese of Trade Violations
By KEITH BRADSHER

Seven American makers of solar panels filed a broad trade case in Washington against the Chinese solar industry on Wednesday, accusing it of using billions of dollars in government subsidies to help gain sales in the American market.

The companies also accused China of dumping solar panels in the United States for less than it costs to manufacture and ship them.

The trade case, filed at the Commerce Department, seeks tariffs of more than 100 percent of the wholesale price of solar panels from China, which shipped $1.6 billion of the panels to the United States in the first eight months of this year.

The filing, which the Commerce Department must review under federal rules, is certain to be controversial. For one thing, if successful, it would drive up the price of solar energy in the name of trying to breathe life into a flagging American industry. High costs have already kept solar power from becoming more than a niche energy source in the United States.

The case also coincides with criticism by Congressional Republicans of the Obama administration’s efforts to support American clean energy companies. Republicans argue that federal loan guarantees of more than a half-billion dollars to the now-bankrupt solar company Solyndra show the folly of the administration’s efforts to guide industrial policy in that field.

The filing might also add fuel to the anti-China sentiments that are running high in some Washington corridors and have started to seep into the presidential campaign.

Chinese commerce officials had no immediate comment about Wednesday’s solar panel filing, but have vehemently opposed such trade cases. A Chinese solar company manager, speaking on condition of anonymity, said in a telephone interview that in any trade case filed by the American industry, “We would be well prepared and are confident we could defend it.”

In August, Solyndra and two other American solar energy companies filed for bankruptcy protection, citing the plunging prices of solar technology from China. Many of the surviving companies, meanwhile, have been laying off workers and closing factories, or setting up shop in China.

Two Democratic senators on Wednesday joined the news conference in Washington announcing the trade case, which is being led by an Oregon solar panel maker, SolarWorld Industries America.

“American solar operations should be rapidly expanding to keep pace with the skyrocketing demand for these products,” said Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon. “But that is not what has been happening,” Mr. Wyden said. “There seems to be one primary explanation for this; that is, that China is cheating.”

He was joined by his Oregon colleague Senator Jeff Merkley, also a Democrat, who said China was engaging in “rogue practices.”

Whatever the partisan positioning, though, the trade case will procedurally begin above the political fray. It will follow a quasi-judicial path at the Commerce Department and a related American agency, the International Trade Commission, that is intended to operate without partisan influence.

Other recent industry cases against China that have followed this process include one filed in late March, involving galvanized steel wire. The most recently completed case against China, in late May, resulted in tariffs of about 33 percent levied against certain types of imported aluminum products.

The White House on Wednesday declined to comment on the solar trade filing. But President Obama recently appeared to support the American solar industry’s concerns. In a White House news conference on Oct. 6 he said: “Even if the technology was developed in the United States, they end up going to China because the Chinese government will say, ‘We’re going to help you get started, we’ll help you scale up, we’ll give you low-interest loans or no-interest loans, we will give siting, we will do whatever it takes for you to get started here.’ ”

United States policy toward China provoked a recent back-and-forth between Mr. Obama’s staff and Mitt Romney, whom many Democrats expect to be the Republican presidential nominee. Mr. Romney, talking tough in a Republican debate last week, said the United States had been “run over by China” for 20 years and “you have to have a president that will take action.”

In response, Mr. Obama’s senior campaign strategist, David Axelrod, countered that Mr. Romney was once again flip-flopping, having criticized Mr. Obama in the past as protectionist for mounting a trade case against China on behalf of American tire producers.

Wednesday’s filing could prove too late to save the American solar panel industry. China already accounts for three-fifths of the world’s solar panel production, giving it enormous economies of scale.

China exports 95 percent of its production, much of it to the United States, which has helped push wholesale solar panel prices down from $3.30 a watt of capacity in 2008 to $1.80 by last January and now to $1.20. A typical solar panel might have a capacity of 230 watts.

The trade case seeks tariffs “well in excess of 100 percent” on the wholesale price of Chinese solar panels on arrival at American docks, as punishment for dumping goods. Including installation, the American solar power market is worth about $6 billion a year. So far, though, solar power generates only about one-tenth of 1 percent of the United States’ electricity because it is still more expensive than fossil fuels. Any price increase in the technology — particularly an effective doubling of the price of Chinese imports through tariffs — is not likely to improve that ratio.

SolarWorld Industries America, the largest maker of conventional solar panels in the United States, made the decision in late spring to assemble a coalition for a case against China, even before Solyndra’s difficulties became widely known, according to Gordon Brinser, SolarWorld’s president.

Significantly, the other six companies that joined the case have withheld their names, as they are entitled to do under Commerce Department rules. Many companies fear that the Chinese government is ready to retaliate against any business that challenges its policies.

SolarWorld Industries America, based in Hillsboro, Ore., is a subsidiary of SolarWorld, a German company. The American subsidiaries of foreign companies are allowed to file antidumping and antisubsidy cases if they produce goods in the United States. Solyndra is not taking part because it does not manufacture the traditional kind of panels, so-called blue solar panels, covered by the case.

“This had nothing to do with any input from either side of the aisle” in Congress, nor was it influenced by the Obama administration, Mr. Brinser added. SolarWorld might have acted sooner, he said, except that the Obama administration announced a year ago that it would investigate whether China’s clean energy policies violated international trade rules. But so far the administration has taken no action on solar power beyond alerting the World Trade Organization to Chinese subsidies.

SolarWorld said it was representing a newly formed trade association, the Coalition for American Solar Manufacturing. An existing trade group, Solar Energy Industries Association, is deeply split over trade actions against China, because it includes American subsidiaries of Chinese solar manufacturers and American companies that sell raw materials and factory equipment to Chinese makers of solar panels.

One of those American units, Suntech Power, which is owned by Suntech, a leading Chinese company in the field, said on Wednesday that it opposed the trade filing. That could be a big blow to the company, if successful. Suntech ships solar cells from China to the United States. where they are bolted together in Arizona for final delivery.

“The U.S. is a major contributor to the fast-growing global solar industry,” said Andrew Beebe, Suntech’s chief commercial officer. “Protectionism would not only put thousands of jobs at risk, but it would inhibit solar technology’s ability to compete against traditional forms of electricity generation,” he said.

The trade case contends that China has helped its solar panel industry by providing the equivalent of billions of dollars in subsidies in the form of deeply discounted loans, land, electricity, water and raw materials, as well as cash grants and tax breaks.

Many American companies also receive subsidies from federal, state and local programs — as in the instance of Solyndra’s $528 million in federal loan guarantees. And Mr. Brinser said that SolarWorld was in the process of obtaining $4 million in research assistance from the federal government. An Energy Department report in July said that federal subsidies for solar power totaled $1.134 billion in the 2010 fiscal year, up from $179 million in 2009.

But because few American companies export 95 percent of their production, they are less likely to run afoul of trade rules against export subsidies.

Have to say this is one issue I have trouble taking a side on. On one hand super cheap solar panels would be good to encourage them as an alternate power source, help drive the "green revolution" so-to-speak. On the other hand China is an economic rival at best despite our interdependency. Leveling the playing field for access to the American solar market may be in our best interest in the long run. The Administration's position on this may also play in the upcoming elections, given the Solyndra disaster.
 
Yes, tax the hell out of it. That would surely motivate the American manufacturers improve technology, reduce costs and be competitive in the global market.
 
Yes, tax the hell out of it. That would surely motivate the American manufacturers improve technology, reduce costs and be competitive in the global market.

Read the article. The Chinese government is throwing ridiculous amounts of cash into their solar industry, essentially allowing them to sell solar panels at extreme cost and flood the market. Technological improvement can only go so far, so fast. If you could buy a Toyota Camry clone from the Chinese Government at half-price, would you bitch at Toyota to improve the technology/production of the camry?

Also there won't be any improvement in the technology if the entire American solar industry goes under.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/b...l=1&adxnnlx=1319072484-il3Bauz8sFZfWzBKGFQ0Pg



Have to say this is one issue I have trouble taking a side on. On one hand super cheap solar panels would be good to encourage them as an alternate power source, help drive the "green revolution" so-to-speak. On the other hand China is an economic rival at best despite our interdependency. Leveling the playing field for access to the American solar market may be in our best interest in the long run. The Administration's position on this may also play in the upcoming elections, given the Solyndra disaster.

They are only going to be "super cheap" as long as it takes to bankrupt the competition. After that, they'll jack up prices to take recoup all those "savings" and then some. So these "super cheap" panels are going to cost you both in higher prices down the road, and in unemployment benefits to laid off Americans.
 
They are only going to be "super cheap" as long as it takes to bankrupt the competition. After that, they'll jack up prices to take recoup all those "savings" and then some. So these "super cheap" panels are going to cost you both in higher prices down the road, and in unemployment benefits to laid off Americans.

Not denying that, but from what I hear China's economic future may not be all that shiny. Most sectors are basically relying on Beijing to bail them out if it comes to it, and for many it probably will. Just how much money does the Chinese government have in reserve? Would be interesting if extreme subsidies/loans/etc and such eventually bankrupt them, in which case we might do better to let things go so as to drain Beijing all the faster. Hypothetically speaking of course, I've got no hard numbers. 😛
 
Read the article. The Chinese government is throwing ridiculous amounts of cash into their solar industry, essentially allowing them to sell solar panels at extreme cost and flood the market. Technological improvement can only go so far, so fast. If you could buy a Toyota Camry clone from the Chinese Government at half-price, would you bitch at Toyota to improve the technology/production of the camry?

Also there won't be any improvement in the technology if the entire American solar industry goes under.

Let them sponsor solar installations all across USA, all on the Chinese taxpayer dime. Whatever you do, you can't stop them unless American companies are willing to compete at the global level and can devise technologies that would make the Chinese panels unattractive. For all that you know, they might keep sponsoring these techs for 50 years now.
Let US companies do what they do best, which is focusing on higher end products. If there's money in it, someone will build it.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/b...l=1&adxnnlx=1319072484-il3Bauz8sFZfWzBKGFQ0Pg



Have to say this is one issue I have trouble taking a side on. On one hand super cheap solar panels would be good to encourage them as an alternate power source, help drive the "green revolution" so-to-speak. On the other hand China is an economic rival at best despite our interdependency. Leveling the playing field for access to the American solar market may be in our best interest in the long run. The Administration's position on this may also play in the upcoming elections, given the Solyndra disaster.


IIRC china gives domestic companies below market financing, which allows them to dump on foreign markets. Get the tariff in and let WTO sort it out.
 
Let them sponsor solar installations all across USA, all on the Chinese taxpayer dime. Whatever you do, you can't stop them unless American companies are willing to compete at the global level and can devise technologies that would make the Chinese panels unattractive. For all that you know, they might keep sponsoring these techs for 50 years now.
Let US companies do what they do best, which is focusing on higher end products. If there's money in it, someone will build it.

It's the same technology and same methods, but Chinese companies receive cheap financing for the overhead from the gov't. With industries with very high required capex, cheap financing lets you undercut everyone else.
 
If it's really the same tech and methods, why not just let them flood the USA with cheap panels, sponsored by the Chinese government?
 
If it's really the same tech and methods, why not just let them flood the USA with cheap panels, sponsored by the Chinese government?

Because that would undercut the domestic industry and drive it out of business, losing American jobs and all that nasty stuff without even honest competition.
 
Huh? Because they're cheating at competition?

Lets assume this is not a labor intensive product. Otherwise there would be little economic justification to making them in USA in the first place.

And as you said, lets assume the tech and process are similar between the US made and Chinese panels.

These two assumptions put the cost of manufacturing pretty close. If I'm wrong, then stop here, but lets assume they are:

Now, if the Chinese government is willing to finance the panel manufacturing to the extent that 100% tax is demanded to make the American companies competitive, doesn't it mean the Chinese government subsidizes the panels at 50%?
 
I'd be interested in what proof they have that panels are allegedly being sold below cost. Predatory pricing is a common complaint among companies who can't compete and go crying to the government for help, but the reality is that it doesn't really happen in the real world, there are basically no empirical examples of it. It's an interesting thought experiment, but that's about it.

It's not like the US solar industry doesn't receive a ton of subsidies either. Sounds like they're just upset that they can't compete with the Chinese.
 
It's the same technology and same methods, but Chinese companies receive cheap financing for the overhead from the gov't. With industries with very high required capex, cheap financing lets you undercut everyone else.

they also have easier/cheaper access to materials, things need to be imported here. in all honesty there's no fucking point competing with China here and it wouldn't be cost effective even with the tariffs on Chinese panels. Raising the cost on Chinese panels isn't going to change the fact you still need the Government to front 75% of the cost just so people in the upper middle class or better can afford it. We need to focus on more modern wind designs, ocean current technologies, natural gas and more modern nuke reactors.
 
Lets assume this is not a labor intensive product. Otherwise there would be little economic justification to making them in USA in the first place.

And as you said, lets assume the tech and process are similar between the US made and Chinese panels.

These two assumptions put the cost of manufacturing pretty close. If I'm wrong, then stop here, but lets assume they are:

Now, if the Chinese government is willing to finance the panel manufacturing to the extent that 100% tax is demanded to make the American companies competitive, doesn't it mean the Chinese government subsidizes the panels at 50%?

Do you have a point, or do you just like to type?

Fact: The chinese government, much like the Korean government, subsidizes many of it's industries to force it's way into markets, or, in the case of things like cell phones, home appliances, or solar panels, to force every other competitor out of business.

What, exactly, don't you get here? The country that still has companies that add value to a product (i.e. - create wealth by manufacturing something of value where there was nothing of value before) will be the one whose population has jobs, money... you know, a future.

What don't you get about this?

Let me guess. You're fairly young. You are't a student of history, and don't understand why TVs and other electronics are no longer made here. I'm hoping youth is your excuse. Otherwise you don't have any excuse at all.
 
they also have easier/cheaper access to materials, things need to be imported here. in all honesty there's no fucking point competing with China here and it wouldn't be cost effective even with the tariffs on Chinese panels. Raising the cost on Chinese panels isn't going to change the fact you still need the Government to front 75% of the cost just so people in the upper middle class or better can afford it. We need to focus on more modern wind designs, ocean current technologies, natural gas and more modern nuke reactors.

Really? We don't have materials for cyrstalline panels? Interesting.

The only reason we'd import things is because we don't make electronics here, because they did the exact same fucking thing to us in that industry 30 years ago and we let it happen.

But wait... super small especially powerful electric generators use rare earth metals... as does most battery technology used in conjuction for things like hybrids, and that only come from China because they have no environmental restrictions on the dangerous mining required.

We could go on and on.

We either fix the problem or we throw up our hands and agree to be a third world country in a couple generations.
 
they also have easier/cheaper access to materials, things need to be imported here. in all honesty there's no fucking point competing with China here and it wouldn't be cost effective even with the tariffs on Chinese panels. Raising the cost on Chinese panels isn't going to change the fact you still need the Government to front 75% of the cost just so people in the upper middle class or better can afford it. We need to focus on more modern wind designs, ocean current technologies, natural gas and more modern nuke reactors.

Uh, really?

Why don't you go look what happened when Microsoft gave Internet Explorer away for free.

How's good old Netscape doing now?
 
Really? We don't have materials for cyrstalline panels? Interesting.

The only reason we'd import things is because we don't make electronics here, because they did the exact same fucking thing to us in that industry 30 years ago and we let it happen.

But wait... super small especially powerful electric generators use rare earth metals... as does most battery technology used in conjuction for things like hybrids, and that only come from China because they have no environmental restrictions on the dangerous mining required.

We could go on and on.

We either fix the problem or we throw up our hands and agree to be a third world country in a couple generations.
"fix the problem"? Band-aid solutions like this tariff would be is not fixing the problem. We priced ourselves out of making solar panels, waah. What part of without the Government fronting 75% of the cost no one would buy a goddamn solar panel in this fucking country do you not under stand? We have OTHER THINGS we can manufacture and specialize in that are BETTER sources of energy anyways so why waste all this effort?

Yes I believe our environmental regulations are far to stringent, but I fail to see how laxing them up drops us into the third world. 1970's USA is by no means 2011's third world. In fact 1970's USA is by most standards still first world(1970's is just an arbitrary decade I picked of laxer regulations, it bares no significance).

Pulsar, I don't know but the browser market is far more competitive now than it was back then. Poor example, please try again.
 
Lets assume this is not a labor intensive product. Otherwise there would be little economic justification to making them in USA in the first place.

And as you said, lets assume the tech and process are similar between the US made and Chinese panels.

These two assumptions put the cost of manufacturing pretty close. If I'm wrong, then stop here, but lets assume they are:

Now, if the Chinese government is willing to finance the panel manufacturing to the extent that 100% tax is demanded to make the American companies competitive, doesn't it mean the Chinese government subsidizes the panels at 50%?

Making solar panels does require labor. Even in the leanest factories for simple products like paper, you need a large amount of people in operations keeping the plant moving. That adds up to high labor costs, and in a market where margins are slim, that can mean life or death. Having the factory in San-Fransisco destroyed any possibility of profit for Solandra.
 
Yes, tax the hell out of it. That would surely motivate the American manufacturers improve technology, reduce costs and be competitive in the global market.
Agreed (assuming it's sarcasm🙂

Read the article. The Chinese government is throwing ridiculous amounts of cash into their solar industry, essentially allowing them to sell solar panels at extreme cost and flood the market. Technological improvement can only go so far, so fast. If you could buy a Toyota Camry clone from the Chinese Government at half-price, would you bitch at Toyota to improve the technology/production of the camry?

Also there won't be any improvement in the technology if the entire American solar industry goes under.
Why should the American tax payer be forced to subsidize inefficiency? Isn't one American solar energy company asking for a 2nd stimulus? Isn't that a dead giveaway as to why the American companies are asking for tariffs?
China's products are mostly fine and they could be even cheaper if we let them keep inflating their currency and if we deflated ours. I can guarantee you that American products aren't going to be any better and they sure as hell aren't going to be any cheaper. Regulations, especially americans ones suck, our corporate tax is too high, etc., etc.
 
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