American solar panel manufactuers file for tarifs on Chinese soloar panels

[theeedude]

This from the guy who is happy we have illegal immigrants picking vegetables so he can save a dime on a head of lettuce. If you're happy to have foreigners pick vegetables, why not have them build your solar panels too?

Having illegals pick vegetables is cheaper than the alternatives, even with externalities priced in. Americans don't want to be in the field picking veggies all day. They do want to build solar panels.
I am happy to have foreigners build my solar panels, but not if they are simply trying to bankrupt US companies so they can control the market and jack up prices later.

 

[BoberFett]

Americans don't want to build solar panels at slave wages either. What's your point?

 

[theeedude]

Americans don't want to build solar panels at slave wages either. What's your point?

It's not slave wages that are making Chinese solar more competitive, it's direct government subsidies and currency manipulation. That's my point. Jump higher, and it won't fly over your head.

 

[woolfe9999]

I'm not sure how "emerging" it actually is. We've had companies in the US manufacturing these things for decades. I remember doing a business valuation on one for sale in CA about 10-11 yrs ago and it had been around for long time before that. IIRC, the first ones were started back in the 70's


Fern

Fair enough. I'm not wedded to the idea of a tarrif of any length. However, my percetion is that it is "emerging" because advancement in the technology has accelerated over the last decade and it is on the cusp of being efficient relative to tradional sources. Photovoltaics have been around since about 1970 I think, and solar power generally for about a 100 years. It's only recently that it's just starting to become viable.

- wolf

 

[1prophet]

It's not slave wages that are making Chinese solar more competitive, it's direct government subsidies and currency manipulation. That's my point. Jump higher, and it won't fly over your head.

So they're cheating, just like the guy who hires illegals and pays them under the table.

And Americans don't have some manifest destiny making them too good for certain jobs, contrary to what some elitist assholes (today and back in the day of slavery and indentured servants) believe and preach.

Greed is greed, whether its the person looking to hire illegals to save a buck, the corporation that outsources to fatten short term margins at the expense of everything else, or the self deluded brainwashed consumer who knows nothing else but price and cheaper is better.

 

[bfdd]

So they're cheating, just like the guy who hires illegals and pays them under the table.

And Americans don't have some manifest destiny making them too good for certain jobs, contrary to what some elitist assholes (today and back in the day of slavery and indentured servants) believe and preach.

Greed is greed, whether its the person looking to hire illegals to save a buck, the corporation that outsources to fatten short term margins at the expense of everything else, or the self deluded brainwashed consumer who knows nothing else but price and cheaper is better.

Great post. They're just wannabe slave owners. Douche bags the lot of them.

 

[theeedude]

So they're cheating, just like the guy who hires illegals and pays them under the table.

And Americans don't have some manifest destiny making them too good for certain jobs, contrary to what some elitist assholes (today and back in the day of slavery and indentured servants) believe and preach.

Greed is greed, whether its the person looking to hire illegals to save a buck, the corporation that outsources to fatten short term margins at the expense of everything else, or the self deluded brainwashed consumer who knows nothing else but price and cheaper is better.

We don't have to hypothesize about this, the results are already on display in states that share your point of view:
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/mo...-farmers-losing-millions-to-anti-migrant-law/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/americans-immigrants-jobs-alabama-14782618

Potato farmer Keith Smith saw most of his immigrant workers leave after Alabama's tough immigration law took effect, so he hired Americans. It hasn't worked out: Most show up late, work slower than seasoned farm hands and are ready to call it a day after lunch or by midafternoon. Some quit after a single day.

In Alabama and other parts of the country, farmers must look beyond the nation's borders for labor because many Americans simply don't want the backbreaking, low-paying jobs immigrants are willing to take. Politicians who support the law say over time more unemployed Americans will fill these jobs. They insist it's too early to consider the law a failure, yet numbers from the governor's office show only nominal interest.

"I've had people calling me wanting to work," Smith said. "I haven't turned any of them down, but they're not any good. It's hard work, they just don't work like the Hispanics with experience."

The free market has spoken.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The free market has spoken.

There is absolutely no problem, just have the government admit those workers into USA on special visas like they do with tech workers. There's no excuse for turning a blind eye to their illegal status.

 

[Infohawk]

The free market has spoken.

One supplier doesn't speak for the free market. Of course he wants cheap illegal labor and is going to bitch about having to pay Americans more money. You'd be muttering under your breath about the 99% if this didn't feed your illegal apologetics.

I'm fine with paying more money for food. We'll all make up for it with the reduced services that now go to illegals.

 

[theeedude]

One supplier doesn't speak for the free market. Of course he wants cheap illegal labor and is going to bitch about having to pay Americans more money. You'd be muttering under your breath about the 99% if this didn't feed your illegal apologetics.

I'm fine with paying more money for food. We'll all make up for it with the reduced services that now go to illegals.

No it won't. Backbreaking work in pesticide polluted fields, going to cost more in health benefits if we send Americans out there.

 

[Darwin333]

We don't have to hypothesize about this, the results are already on display in states that share your point of view:
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/mo...-farmers-losing-millions-to-anti-migrant-law/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/americans-immigrants-jobs-alabama-14782618



The free market has spoken.

Put tariffs on the cheap Chinese solar panels and you will read virtually the same thing about US solar installers laying people off.

I have to agree with others, the two issues are very close. One is simply importing cheap labor to do jobs and the other is exporting expensive labor to do jobs cheaper.

 

[Darwin333]

No it won't. Backbreaking work in pesticide polluted fields, going to cost more in health benefits if we send Americans out there.

What about construction? Especially remodeling? Should we export that labor (or import it) as well? Takes lots of nasty chemicals to make solar panels, why do we want to put Americans in that situation? Hell, might lose a hand in a car factory....


Inherent risks are in just about every one of lifes endeavors.

 

[theeedude]

Farmworkers are not here being subsidized by Mexican government to drive Americans out of farm work. They are doing work Americans simply don't want to do. They are taking those wages of their own free will to feed their families. This is not even remotely related to Chinese government violating its trade obligations and subsidizing dumping of solar panels below cost to corner the market, like it already has with rare earths.

 

[bfdd]

What about construction? Especially remodeling? Should we export that labor (or import it) as well? Takes lots of nasty chemicals to make solar panels, why do we want to put Americans in that situation? Hell, might lose a hand in a car factory....


Inherent risks are in just about every one of lifes endeavors.

he doesn't live in the real world. I'm an American, I have done some very dangerous work. I have almost been crushed by a 12 ton turbine casing, been gassed with nitrogen and been knocked off a turbine platform to a 20 foot fall due to an idiot on a fork lift. I've had to do fresh air work and worn sensors that tell me if I breath I die. Americans do dirty dangerous work all the time. I would pick veggies or fruit if I needed a job. I would much rather do that than work in service for the same low pay and I am sure there are plenty of others who would as well. He just wants his slave labor cause he's a piece of shit.

 

[LegendKiller]

So instead of all Americans benefiting from China subsidizing Chinese solar power manufacturers, only the USA solar panel companies get to benefit from this tariff.

Shitty deal if you ask me.

The problem with simpletons like you is that you think that everybody plays by the same rules in a "free market". As I've continually stated, the Libertopian ideal only works in an idealistic Utopian world devoid of human greed and market manipulation. Just like a floating currency with no central bank or strong central government cannot fight against a pegged currency, nor can suppliers of a product fight against the same pegged currency AND artificially depressed wages AND artificially depressed capital costs from a centrally planned government lending cheap loans. That's NOT the "free market".

Yet, simpleton Americans like you continually think that playing "fair" is the best way to "compete", especially where you can get the "cheapest" goods. Yet, those goods are only "cheap" with all else being equal. Since all other things aren't equal they aren't "cheap". Further, those costs, especially to semi-skilled and skilled labor, have a multiplicative effect due to the velocity of money. It's why stimulus has a greater multiple of effect than tax cuts, because to lower-end wages, the stimulus gets spent, which creates more jobs in a feedback loop.

But short-term neanderthals like you cannot see the Nth order of effects, nor can you recognize those effects for how they cause further ripples. You and your kind think that if you throw a big rock in a calm pond the only ripple is the initial entry. You cannot fathom the idea that that initial ripple causes more and more ripples to the Nth order.

 

[Darwin333]

Farmworkers are not here being subsidized by Mexican government to drive Americans out of farm work. They are doing work Americans simply don't want to do. They are taking those wages of their own free will to feed their families. This is not even remotely related to Chinese government violating its trade obligations and subsidizing dumping of solar panels below cost to corner the market, like it already has with rare earths.

Do you actually know what you are talking about?

Other than below market rate loans (which "market rate" is about as low as it can get right now), how are they subsidizing the solar market in anyway that we don't do as well for other markets?

They did run into some serious oversupply conditions which coupled with a down market forced prices much lower than anyone expected but they damn sure didn't plan that.

At the end of the day it is mostly labor and environmental regs that are kicking our ass. We already subsidize the other stuff that is listed (running power to new manufacturing plants, huge tax breaks, often subsidized power, etc..) so I ask again, what exactly are they doing that we don't do already? If you take an honest look at it you will find yourself back at the cheaper than dirt labor and I don't see a damn bit of difference between importing cheaper labor or exporting jobs to cheaper labor.

 

[Modelworks]

China's government often bankrolls products sold to other countries to allow companies to sell items below cost. They especially target niche items like solar panels. China does this to force other countries out of the market , then when they become the majority supplier they raise the prices. Some say that is what the USA should do, the difference is the USA doesn't have the capital to do that and China does. Look at the tariffs filed against China in the past for unfair trade practices. They do not care about fair and will do anything to control the market.

If that means losing money, so be it. They can afford to wait it out until other countries industry collapse in the targeted market.

 

[Modelworks]

They are doing work Americans simply don't want to do. They are taking those wages of their own free will to feed their families.

wrong. They are doing work that American farmers don't want to have to pay for. I live in a rural area and here almost all the workers are foreign. From the fields to the hog farms and it isn't because nobody else is willing to do the work. Nobody else is willing to do the work for what the farmers want to pay. Many farmers like foreigners because they don't have to deal with paperwork, taxes, healthcare, job safety. If a worker falls in a field because there was an old piece of wire fence in the dirt a USA worker will claim negligence, try to sue, etc. The foreigner could gash his head open and would only go to the ER and then return to work. The USA worker shows up and wants $10 / hour, the foreigner will work based on commission of how much they pick. At hog farms they are supposed to provide various safety gear that cost big bucks, foreigners don't complain, USA workers will.

 

[Modelworks]

No it won't. Backbreaking work in pesticide polluted fields, going to cost more in health benefits if we send Americans out there.

No, you send out the Ag departments and make them enforce the rules and you will see Americans take those farm jobs. Have you ever tried to get a job working in a field ? Here is what it takes :

show up at the field.

That is it, no paperwork, they don't even know or want to know your name . Cash is paid out at the end of the day. No accounting, no taxes, no paperwork. Compare that to any other type of work where you have to have regulated wages, someone supervising work conditions. I have seen workers get in an argument with the farmer and told to leave and are never paid anything. Or people hurt and nothing ever done. People falling off tractors because they are overloaded with people picking corn when it isn't supposed to be done that way because of safety.

 

[LegendKiller]

Do you actually know what you are talking about?

Other than below market rate loans (which "market rate" is about as low as it can get right now), how are they subsidizing the solar market in anyway that we don't do as well for other markets?

They did run into some serious oversupply conditions which coupled with a down market forced prices much lower than anyone expected but they damn sure didn't plan that.

At the end of the day it is mostly labor and environmental regs that are kicking our ass. We already subsidize the other stuff that is listed (running power to new manufacturing plants, huge tax breaks, often subsidized power, etc..) so I ask again, what exactly are they doing that we don't do already? If you take an honest look at it you will find yourself back at the cheaper than dirt labor and I don't see a damn bit of difference between importing cheaper labor or exporting jobs to cheaper labor.

How about a currency suppressed by 20-30% to make their goods cheaper? How about a communist government which controls almost all of the major manufacturers through either the government or by proxy the military whereby the PBOC and other large banks offer unlimited cheap loans? How about the fact they can force relocate bulk employees? How about the government which basically gives unlimited amount of capital to those same companies and banks without any need to repay it (unlike TARP, which I am sure would be your first rebuttal) so those companies can dump the products into the foreign markets to drive out (or bankrupt) the foreign competitors and eventually dominate the market?

I mean, really, this is where you fucking "free market" fucktards run into problems. You think that people will play "fair" in a "free market" and we'll all join around the campfire singing kumbaya while we compete "Fairly" in some fairy tale bullshit utopia. This isn't some kind of fucking GI Joe bullshit world where nobody dies and everybody bails out of the tank before it blows up, this is goddamn reality. Grow the fuck up and learn the lesson.

 

[piasabird]

It is not like American Companies dont get energy savings subsidies?? Lets be a bit more honest???

Maybe American Solar Panels are just overpriced???

Maybe competition will lower the prices on solar panels and that will be a benefit for the consumer.

 

[piasabird]

Chinese can be creative and make new products. A company called Golden Motor makes Electric Bicycle HUB motors and make lightweight electric Bicycles possible. I did a little research on EV (Electric Vehicles) and I saw this brand everywhere.

Some links are just EV projects or may be too old.

Basillisk Go Cart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RSqImgaW2U&feature=related

http://www.tryckle.com/electric.htm

http://www.goldenmotorusa.com/index.php?pg=dlinfo

http://www.falconev.com/index.html

http://solarvehicles.org/faqs.html

Solar Powered Trike
http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/how-to-build-a-solar-powered-trike/9AIYUKCJPNA3QBJXPC19PBATW9H7

Solar Trike
http://www.solartrike.com/

http://www.therapyproducts.com/products_sunnybike.html

Solar Trikes
http://www.solarvehicles.org/veepicturesvideos.html

http://store.sundancesolar.com/solar-electric-cart-charger-48v.html

http://www.earth4energy.com/

http://www.mrsolar.com/pdf/bp/BP350.pdf

$6,000 Electric Trike/Pedal Recumbrant
http://www.runaboutcycles.com/main/specsheet

Worksman less than $3,000
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/pav3.html

EV Parts and Kits
http://www.cloudelectric.com/default.asp

Motorcycle Hub Motor $1,300
http://www.enertrac.net/index.php

 

[DucatiMonster696]

How about a currency suppressed by 20-30% to make their goods cheaper? How about a communist government which controls almost all of the major manufacturers through either the government or by proxy the military whereby the PBOC and other large banks offer unlimited cheap loans? How about the fact they can force relocate bulk employees? How about the government which basically gives unlimited amount of capital to those same companies and banks without any need to repay it (unlike TARP, which I am sure would be your first rebuttal) so those companies can dump the products into the foreign markets to drive out (or bankrupt) the foreign competitors and eventually dominate the market?

I mean, really, this is where you fucking "free market" fucktards run into problems. You think that people will play "fair" in a "free market" and we'll all join around the campfire singing kumbaya while we compete "Fairly" in some fairy tale bullshit utopia. This isn't some kind of fucking GI Joe bullshit world where nobody dies and everybody bails out of the tank before it blows up, this is goddamn reality. Grow the fuck up and learn the lesson.

This isn't a fault of the free-market but the fault of a shady government at work and a naive US government (along with proponents of global wealth redistribution in the US) leaving the proverbial barn door open for foxes like China.

If you think having a controlled and managed market is in the best interest of US citizens then you are no better then those who espoused these ideas but have been proven failures throughout history.

I.E.Mao ZeDong whose economic policy of complete government control on industry in China created stark poverty and famine in the light of the current economic position of modern day China and its economic policies. Polices which may seem tight and overbearing to us but are nothing in contrast to what occurred under tight fisted government management and control of markets in China during Mao's era.

In fact it was the loosening of the aforementioned polices and allowances of a freer market which has allowed for far more economic freedoms, rates of economic growth and wealth generation in China then were available to the average Chinese 40+ years ago under the complete control and management of the economy by the Chinese Communist government.

"Please check yourself before you wreck yourself because .Gov managed economies are bad for your health."

 

[piasabird]

How about we limit the numbers of foreign students in favor of in-district students.

 

[LegendKiller]

This isn't a fault of the free-market but the fault of a shady government at work and a naive US government (along with proponents of global wealth redistribution in the US) leaving the proverbial barn door open for foxes like China.

If you think having a controlled and managed market is in the best interest of US citizens then you are no better then those who espoused these ideas but have been proven failures throughout history.

I.E.Mao ZeDong whose economic policy of complete government control on industry in China created stark poverty and famine in the light of the current economic position of modern day China and its economic policies. Polices which may seem tight and overbearing to us but are nothing in contrast to what occurred under tight fisted government management and control of markets in China during Mao's era.

In fact it was the loosening of the aforementioned polices and allowances of a freer market which has allowed for far more economic freedoms, rates of economic growth and wealth generation in China then were available to the average Chinese 40+ years ago under the complete control and management of the economy by the Chinese Communist government.

"Please check yourself before you wreck yourself because .Gov managed economies are bad for your health."

This isn't the fault of our government, the government is nothing but an extension of the people. It's the fault of fuckwits like above who would rather head to Wally World to pick up some cheap shit made in a country that manipulates every economic factor available than buy US and demand accountability from their elected officials to stop this bullshit manipulation. Instead they prattle on about idiotic positions such as "free market" and "cheaper production" instead of educating themselves and realizing that China is playing the game and is cheating every way possible to fuck us. Instead of playing back, we just sit on the sidelines and play with our dicks. I get so tired of this shit. The answer is so blatantly obvious but idiots like above fail to even remotely grasp the basic concepts.

I don't want huge government intervention or a centrally planned economy, I want us to wield the tools available to stop this fucking bullshit. That means that people like Darwin need to call his senators up and, rather than spewing "free market" idiocy, tell them to do their fucking job and slap tariffs on China, revoke MFN status, lodge formal complaints with the WTO, and a whole host of other things to stop this.