American solar panel manufactuers file for tarifs on Chinese soloar panels

[JockoJohnson]

They are only going to be "super cheap" as long as it takes to bankrupt the competition. After that, they'll jack up prices to take recoup all those "savings" and then some. So these "super cheap" panels are going to cost you both in higher prices down the road, and in unemployment benefits to laid off Americans.

So, now would be a good time to buy before prices go up?

 

[Spikesoldier]

its ok other countries will buy up the cheap panels, america.

dumb move to protect green jarbs

 

[Darwin333]

Making solar panels does require labor. Even in the leanest factories for simple products like paper, you need a large amount of people in operations keeping the plant moving. That adds up to high labor costs, and in a market where margins are slim, that can mean life or death. Having the factory in San-Fransisco destroyed any possibility of profit for Solandra.

They could have had the plant anywhere in the US and they still wouldn't stand a chance in hell at making a profit in todays solar market. They had a niche (and pretty cool) product but no one is going to buy the coolest solar product at $3/watt when the plain old panels are going for $1/watt.

I don't know about their funny accounting or .gov ties but the market fell out from under them and no one expected that to happen. Their location (inside the US) had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[Darwin333]

Ok, just came up with a brilliant solution:

1. New stimulus plan to install $2 TRILLION worth of solar across the U.S.
2. Borrow money from China for stimulus plan
3. Purchase solar panels from China
4. China takes huge loss on selling us the panels
5. Default on the debt
6. Epic profit!!!

 

[DaveSimmons]

Ok, just came up with a brilliant solution:

1. New stimulus plan to install $2 TRILLION worth of solar across the U.S.
2. Borrow money from China for stimulus plan
3. Purchase solar panels from China
4. China takes huge loss on selling us the panels
5. Default on the debt
6. Epic profit!!!

"That's just crazy enough to work!"

If we can get China to accept special "D-Bills" instead of the normal Ts, when we default on them it won't affect T-bill holders in the rest of the world. Markets don't collapse, and China only nukes one or two of our cities in retaliation.

Let's try this.

. . . . or that tariff thing, either one is good.

 

[EagleKeeper]

GE is building a plant in Colorado using no Federal money. If tariffs are needed to level the playing field or to allow them to ramp up and prove that they have a competitive product, allow them the chance.

If we do not our fledgling industries to grow and compete, we have conceded that we can not recover what was given up

 

[bfdd]

GE is building a plant in Colorado using no Federal money. If tariffs are needed to level the playing field or to allow them to ramp up and prove that they have a competitive product, allow them the chance.

If we do not our fledgling industries to grow and compete, we have conceded that we can not recover what was given up

yes, no federal money. how much are they paying on their taxes next year? they already pay 0 so I have feeling we'll be seeing another big fat 0 again next year. there are other ways to give them "government money" without it actually coming from the government.

 

[Zstream]

should file for tariffs on friggin everything from china.

+1

 

[Matt1970]

They are only going to be "super cheap" as long as it takes to bankrupt the competition. After that, they'll jack up prices to take recoup all those "savings" and then some. So these "super cheap" panels are going to cost you both in higher prices down the road, and in unemployment benefits to laid off Americans.

It's not often we agree, but I am with ya on this one.

 

[momeNt]

So instead of all Americans benefiting from China subsidizing Chinese solar power manufacturers, only the USA solar panel companies get to benefit from this tariff.

Shitty deal if you ask me.

 

[SamurAchzar]

So instead of all Americans benefiting from China subsidizing Chinese solar power manufacturers, only the USA solar panel companies get to benefit from this tariff.

Shitty deal if you ask me.

Exactly. So the American consumer gets royally fucked over, US does not get to benefit from massive adoption of renewable energy at the expense of the Chinese, and US firms *still* can't compete with the Chinese on a global level thus assuring US industry is dependent on this protectionism.

Mega shitty deal.

 

[matt0611]

So instead of all Americans benefiting from China subsidizing Chinese solar power manufacturers, only the USA solar panel companies get to benefit from this tariff.

Shitty deal if you ask me.

This. Let the chinese people pay for our solar panels.

 

[EagleKeeper]

GE is building a plant in Colorado using no Federal money. If tariffs are needed to level the playing field or to allow them to ramp up and prove that they have a competitive product, allow them the chance.

If we do not our fledgling industries to grow and compete, we have conceded that we can not recover what was given up

yes, no federal money. how much are they paying on their taxes next year? they already pay 0 so I have feeling we'll be seeing another big fat 0 again next year. there are other ways to give them "government money" without it actually coming from the government.

So you are implying that GE should pay the Federal government for permission to build a plant and create 300-400 jobs. Or should the plant not be built and ship the potential jobs that it would provide overseas?

The Congress setup the tax code and GE follows it. Whine to Congress if it is(seems) unfair.

The statement stands:
GE did not take any Federal money to commit to build the solar panel plant in Colorado.

 

[K1052]

So you are implying that GE should pay the Federal government for permission to build a plant and create 300-400 jobs. Or should the plant not be build and ship the potential jobs that it would provide overseas?

The Congress setup the tax code and GE follows it. Whine to Congress if it is(seems) unfair.

The statement stands:
GE did not take any Federal money to commit to build the solar panel plant in Colorado.

GE is so enormous and profitable that they can soak up whatever losses are incurred in domestic production in order to maintain the capacity and land government contracts. Eventually the Chinese will not be able to artificially depress solar panel prices and when that day comes GE has no intention of being left out of this sector of energy.

The plant's first order is also going to build a solar power plant that GE will own, giving them entry into the green utility market. Given the probable tax incentives I'm sure they have worked things out to incur a negligible loss.

 

[K1052]

This. Let the chinese people pay for our solar panels.

That will eventually end, preferably for the Chinese when they have cornered most of the market.

I have no problem with buying lots of cheap panels from China but we need to take care of domestic producers and promote more research so we can make our own when they stop depressing the prices.

 

[Zebo]

I'd be interested in what proof they have that panels are allegedly being sold below cost. Predatory pricing is a common complaint among companies who can't compete and go crying to the government for help, but the reality is that it doesn't really happen in the real world, there are basically no empirical examples of it. It's an interesting thought experiment, but that's about it.

It's not like the US solar industry doesn't receive a ton of subsidies either. Sounds like they're just upset that they can't compete with the Chinese.

Hard to compete with slave labor where people are paid $5/day while companies pollute the air and water with impunity. You can of course but do you want to?

Not me. I like clean air, time off with family and friends or even to swap a motor in my dune buggy like yesterday which I can't do in China's economy.

 

[bfdd]

So you are implying that GE should pay the Federal government for permission to build a plant and create 300-400 jobs. Or should the plant not be build and ship the potential jobs that it would provide overseas?

The Congress setup the tax code and GE follows it. Whine to Congress if it is(seems) unfair.

The statement stands:
GE did not take any Federal money to commit to build the solar panel plant in Colorado.

that's what you say. I say being told you get a tax incentive is exactly the same thing.

 

[EagleKeeper]

that's what you say. I say being told you get a tax incentive is exactly the same thing.

Tax incentives are available to anyone that qualifies. GE did not go to the Feds and ask for funds.

Do not like the tax rules. Get them changed by Congress. Until then 400 people are getting jobs that would possibly gone overseas. Or is that what you desire?

 

[woolfe9999]

I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this isn't a level playing field. People shouldn't be blaming the American solar industry for not being price competitive with Chinese companies who are aggressively subsidized by their government. And I also think since solar is an emerging technology, we want the U.S. to have a competitive industry for the future. On the other hand, a tariff *will* hurt U.S. consumers and *will* slow the adoption of clean energy in this country by making it more expensive. This is a tough issue.

Why don't we slap a tariff on them for a limited and fixed amount of time, say 2 or 3 years. And say to our solar industry, you have 2-3 years of protection from Chinese competition, after which time it will end. You have that long to innovate and lower your prices. At the end of that time, whichever companies have done well enough for themselves to compete will be able to do so, and the ones who have not will fall by the wayside.

- wolf

 

[Fern]

I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this isn't a level playing field. People shouldn't be blaming the American solar industry for not being price competitive with Chinese companies who are aggressively subsidized by their government. And I also think since solar is an emerging technology, we want the U.S. to have a competitive industry for the future. On the other hand, a tariff *will* hurt U.S. consumers and *will* slow the adoption of clean energy in this country by making it more expensive. This is a tough issue.

I'm not sure how "emerging" it actually is. We've had companies in the US manufacturing these things for decades. I remember doing a business valuation on one for sale in CA about 10-11 yrs ago and it had been around for long time before that. IIRC, the first ones were started back in the 70's

Why don't we slap a tariff on them for a limited and fixed amount of time, say 2 or 3 years. And say to our solar industry, you have 2-3 years of protection from Chinese competition, after which time it will end. You have that long to innovate and lower your prices. At the end of that time, whichever companies have done well enough for themselves to compete will be able to do so, and the ones who have not will fall by the wayside.

- wolf

I don't think 2 or 3 yrs is sufficient. I don't think anyone would want to go thru the huge capital outlay with only a 2 or 3 yrs guarantee. I also do not think 2 or 3 yrs is anywhere near enough time to allow for innovation that would overcome the substantial subsidies Chinese companies enjoy. This industry has been the top beneficiary of investment/venture capital for years, if not decades. Cheap renewable energy from the sun etc is the 'Holy Grail' for business/investment. I can't see how a few more years is likely to result in something revolutionary.

I'm not sure either what the answer is to this question/problem of Chinese anti-competitive behavior. But I cannot even begin to think about one because I have not yet been able to determine with certainty at what level China is beating us. First, you have the manufacturers who make the polysilicon ignots used in PV cells. IIRC, silicon is the 3rd most abundant element on earth. But the problem is separating the O2 from the S1. It's messy, typically involving toxic chemicals and, if I understand correctly, creating CO2 as a byproduct (at least the process I was familiar with years ago with did).

(Up thru 2000 before the dot.com bubble burst polysilicon supply was very short and prices were skyrocketing. After that and the demand for fiber optic cable subsided so I assumed it returned to normal levels. However, driven by govt subsidies for solar, polysilicon prices may have risen again.)

Second, you have the manufacturers who use the polysilicon ignots to make the solar panels. We've long had manufacturers in the US. I'm guessing it's here where China is hurting us. I don't think we have many polysilicon ignot manufacturers in the USA.

Can anyone confirm at which level China is kicking our azz?

Fern

 

[Moonbeam]

I believe that the Solyndra situation was that they needed money to compete with Chinese panels at a time when they were scaling up and China dropped their prices further forcing them out of business before they could reach economies of scale. I believe also that the matter of Chinese dumping of panels has been challenged legally. If the US wins the case then we will have real facts and data on which to formulate a response. I believe it would be a tremendous strategic blunder to have all manufacturing shifted to China and that some form of protectionism, if the legal facts warrant, be applied.

 

[Fern]

I believe that the Solyndra situation was that they needed money to compete with Chinese panels at a time when they were scaling up and China dropped their prices further forcing them out of business before they could reach economies of scale. I believe also that the matter of Chinese dumping of panels has been challenged legally. If the US wins the case then we will have real facts and data on which to formulate a response. I believe it would be a tremendous strategic blunder to have all manufacturing shifted to China and that some form of protectionism, if the legal facts warrant, be applied.

Solyndra had a different problem from what I've read.

They had a proprietary process to make panels using less silicon. As long as silicon prices were high they had a competitive advantage. If silicon prices dropped their more expensive process screwed them.

They were merely a gamble on commodity prices dressed up as a PV manufacturer. A dumb idea on several levels. They had no way of influencing silicon prices (which their biz model was based on), no way of knowing what new ignot processing methods may develop, and there's absolutely no sense in a +billion $ capital investment structure if you're essentially gambling on a commodity prices, which they were.

When you have technology like that I long ago learned the far better idea is to license it. Licensing technology does not require a huge capital investment thus carries little risk.

However, I also learned long ago that many who develop/have such technology just can't avoid the allure of showing up to their big shiny new factory building with a personal parking place right upfront and being hailed as the boss by a bunch of employees. Gotta play 'big man'. Walking to their mailbox once a month to pick up a fat royalty check just seems too boring by comparison.

Fern

 

[Darwin333]

I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this isn't a level playing field. People shouldn't be blaming the American solar industry for not being price competitive with Chinese companies who are aggressively subsidized by their government. And I also think since solar is an emerging technology, we want the U.S. to have a competitive industry for the future. On the other hand, a tariff *will* hurt U.S. consumers and *will* slow the adoption of clean energy in this country by making it more expensive. This is a tough issue.

Why don't we slap a tariff on them for a limited and fixed amount of time, say 2 or 3 years. And say to our solar industry, you have 2-3 years of protection from Chinese competition, after which time it will end. You have that long to innovate and lower your prices. At the end of that time, whichever companies have done well enough for themselves to compete will be able to do so, and the ones who have not will fall by the wayside.

- wolf

I am sympathetic as well and a year or two ago before the bottom fell out of solar panel prices I might have agreed with you. At this point in time any jobs saved or created by these tariffs will be lost on the installer side due to higher prices (in a bad economy no less) drastically slowing consumer demand.

The irony is, since the Fed and most States subsidize solar panels by refunding a percentage of the installed price, any tariff would also cost the Feds and States more money per installed watt. The Fed will likely still come out slightly ahead due to the revenue from the tariff but the States will not.

With that being the case, why not just directly subsidize the few panel makers we currently have in the states?

Finally, this is by far not the only reason China's solar manufacturers are able to produce panels cheaper. I would wager that, especially as cheap as money is right now, that labor and lack of environmental regs have just as much if not more impact.

BTW, I bet the reason this is coming out now is that ARRA work is running out.

 

[senseamp]

It's not often we agree, but I am with ya on this one.

If you start thinking more about the externalities of so called "free" trade and "free" markets, we'll start agreeing a lot more often.

 

[BoberFett]

If you start thinking more about the externalities of so called "free" trade and "free" markets, we'll start agreeing a lot more often.

This from the guy who is happy we have illegal immigrants picking vegetables so he can save a dime on a head of lettuce. If you're happy to have foreigners pick vegetables, why not have them build your solar panels too?