American solar panel manufactuers file for tarifs on Chinese soloar panels

[Engineer]

This isn't the fault of our government, the government is nothing but an extension of the people. It's the fault of fuckwits like above who would rather head to Wally World to pick up some cheap shit made in a country that manipulates every economic factor available than buy US and demand accountability from their elected officials to stop this bullshit manipulation. Instead they prattle on about idiotic positions such as "free market" and "cheaper production" instead of educating themselves and realizing that China is playing the game and is cheating every way possible to fuck us. Instead of playing back, we just sit on the sidelines and play with our dicks. I get so tired of this shit. The answer is so blatantly obvious but idiots like above fail to even remotely grasp the basic concepts.

I don't want huge government intervention or a centrally planned economy, I want us to wield the tools available to stop this fucking bullshit. That means that people like Darwin need to call his senators up and, rather than spewing "free market" idiocy, tell them to do their fucking job and slap tariffs on China, revoke MFN status, lodge formal complaints with the WTO, and a whole host of other things to stop this.

:thumbsup:

 

[senseamp]

wrong. They are doing work that American farmers don't want to have to pay for. I live in a rural area and here almost all the workers are foreign. From the fields to the hog farms and it isn't because nobody else is willing to do the work. Nobody else is willing to do the work for what the farmers want to pay. Many farmers like foreigners because they don't have to deal with paperwork, taxes, healthcare, job safety. If a worker falls in a field because there was an old piece of wire fence in the dirt a USA worker will claim negligence, try to sue, etc. The foreigner could gash his head open and would only go to the ER and then return to work. The USA worker shows up and wants $10 / hour, the foreigner will work based on commission of how much they pick. At hog farms they are supposed to provide various safety gear that cost big bucks, foreigners don't complain, USA workers will.

So how am I wrong?
Americans don't want to do these jobs as they are now.
American farmers can't afford to spend more on wages, safety equipment, etc, to make Americans want to do these jobs. They have to compete with farmers all over the world, who don't have to spend all that money. So until Republicans succeed in turning the US into a third world banana republic, Americans aren't going to do these jobs at the wages that American farmers can afford to pay them.

 

[senseamp]

No, you send out the Ag departments and make them enforce the rules and you will see Americans take those farm jobs. Have you ever tried to get a job working in a field ? Here is what it takes :

show up at the field.

That is it, no paperwork, they don't even know or want to know your name . Cash is paid out at the end of the day. No accounting, no taxes, no paperwork. Compare that to any other type of work where you have to have regulated wages, someone supervising work conditions. I have seen workers get in an argument with the farmer and told to leave and are never paid anything. Or people hurt and nothing ever done. People falling off tractors because they are overloaded with people picking corn when it isn't supposed to be done that way because of safety.

You send the Ag department and force American farmers to spend all that money on safety and environmental upgrades, and they'll go out of business before they get the working conditions to a level where Americans are going to want those jobs.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You send the Ag department and force American farmers to spend all that money on safety and environmental upgrades, and they'll go out of business before they get the working conditions to a level where Americans are going to want those jobs.

For any individual farmer that may be true.

People may have to realize that your $0.10 head of lettuce is going to double.

That cost increase will allow the upgraded safety equipment and environmental conditions (which should be there illegals or not) plus the higher wages need to attract legals.

The only difference between having illegals and legals is the cost. Everything else is a red herring.

If all farmers know that they will not have the illegals; they they will have to raise the pay of let the food rot or go out of business.

I would suspect that the first option will be taken as long as they know the cost is passed along the chain.

And the Feds can support this by tariffing imports to cover the additional costs. Prevents the stores and wholesalers from pulling in the cheaper imports and killing the locals.

At least a lot more of the labor costs are being cycled back into the system; rather than encouraging money to escape.

 

[Darwin333]

How about a currency suppressed by 20-30% to make their goods cheaper? How about a communist government which controls almost all of the major manufacturers through either the government or by proxy the military whereby the PBOC and other large banks offer unlimited cheap loans? How about the fact they can force relocate bulk employees? How about the government which basically gives unlimited amount of capital to those same companies and banks without any need to repay it (unlike TARP, which I am sure would be your first rebuttal) so those companies can dump the products into the foreign markets to drive out (or bankrupt) the foreign competitors and eventually dominate the market?

I mean, really, this is where you fucking "free market" fucktards run into problems. You think that people will play "fair" in a "free market" and we'll all join around the campfire singing kumbaya while we compete "Fairly" in some fairy tale bullshit utopia. This isn't some kind of fucking GI Joe bullshit world where nobody dies and everybody bails out of the tank before it blows up, this is goddamn reality. Grow the fuck up and learn the lesson.

I am not a "free market" fucktard, fucktard.

All of that other bullshit doesn't apply to me nor does it address the point I was making in my post.

BTW, a TON of US companies have opened up manufacturing plants for solar panels in China and are currently selling panels at competitive rates. I would assume that is because they enjoy all of the same benefits that the Chinese companies do, which you listed above. My question is, how do I go about getting in on the free Chinese money?

Not really relevant to the discussion but haven't you been hailing our own currency manipulation to dick over China and its currency manipulation?

PS, on a serious note, I have said forever that China is a serious problem and if we don't do something about it we will be fucked. I do have a problem with this "selective" BS as I assume that the same issues apply across the board, and honestly I don't see how this will help US companies at the end of the day. They still won't be competitive in a global market and at the same time they put the brakes on the US market. How does that improve the situation for US solar manufacturers? Price per watt is EVERYTHING and a small difference of a nickel a watt will determine if someone buys US or Chinese.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If china or some other country is subsidizing the nickel due to currency manipulation; then the US government should step in.

It is up to the political realities if they want to compensate for the honest labor cost difference

 

[senseamp]

For any individual farmer that may be true.

People may have to realize that your $0.10 head of lettuce is going to double.

That cost increase will allow the upgraded safety equipment and environmental conditions (which should be there illegals or not) plus the higher wages need to attract legals.

The only difference between having illegals and legals is the cost. Everything else is a red herring.

If all farmers know that they will not have the illegals; they they will have to raise the pay of let the food rot or go out of business.

I would suspect that the first option will be taken as long as they know the cost is passed along the chain.

And the Feds can support this by tariffing imports to cover the additional costs. Prevents the stores and wholesalers from pulling in the cheaper imports and killing the locals.

At least a lot more of the labor costs are being cycled back into the system; rather than encouraging money to escape.

So your idea needs protectionism to work, which means other US companies are going to suffer from retaliatory tariffs imposed on them.
It will also increase the cost of labor intensive fresh produce, with corresponding health consequences for the population, and corresponding impact on health care costs and productivity.

 

[Darwin333]

So how am I wrong?
Americans don't want to do these jobs as they are now.
American farmers can't afford to spend more on wages, safety equipment, etc, to make Americans want to do these jobs. They have to compete with farmers all over the world, who don't have to spend all that money. So until Republicans succeed in turning the US into a third world banana republic, Americans aren't going to do these jobs at the wages that American farmers can afford to pay them.

Why don't we do the same thing with all of our industries? Why is it just Ag that gets this pass?

We could make cars a hellofa lot cheaper if we removed half of the safety equipment/training, slashed pay by 75% and removed all benefits and the illegals would be lining up to do the work.

 

[Darwin333]

So your idea needs protectionism to work, which means other US companies are going to suffer from retaliatory tariffs imposed on them.
It will also increase the cost of labor intensive fresh produce, with corresponding health consequences for the population, and corresponding impact on health care costs and productivity.

The workers could unionize and demand better working conditions and health care benefits.

 

[Darwin333]

If china or some other country is subsidizing the nickel due to currency manipulation; then the US government should step in.

It is up to the political realities if they want to compensate for the honest labor cost difference

The point is its a nickel on everything they export not just solar panels. We should be discussing tariffs on everything we import from them not just solar panels.

 

[piasabird]

How come we dont put tarriffs on Japanese cars then?

 

[Darwin333]

How come we dont put tarriffs on Japanese cars then?

I didn't realize the Japanese were doing everything that LK listed, paying a few bucks a day for labor, and have absolutely zero environmental regs.

I could be wrong, I don't know much about Japans economy.

 

[Infohawk]

How come we dont put tarriffs on Japanese cars then?

I didn't realize the Japanese were doing everything that LK listed, paying a few bucks a day for labor, and have absolutely zero environmental regs.

I could be wrong, I don't know much about Japans economy.

Exactly Japan is fully industrialized now. Trade with developed countries is a net positive. These countries essentially exchange luxuries. It's not disruptive to western society like trade with undemocratic, overpopulated, underpaid third-world countries

 

[BurnItDwn]

I wonder how many American patents they are violating or how much pirated software exists in the factories where they make these ...

Perhaps instead of a tariff on the Chinese "soloar" panels, we should instead fine them for all their pirated copies of Windows XP and all their licensing fees that they should be paying for stolen tech?

At that point ... once they start paying for what was stolen, I suspect it will bring up their costs significantly ...