"AMD's role in Stealth Viral Marketing - Q&A" source ABT link inside

[Idontcare]

Locking this because "it" just got real

(will unlock in future if we sort this out and amicable discussion can continue, in the meantime mod disc thread has been opened to get to the bottom of it)

We do not allow/condone IP address sharing, per our forum's guidelines on moderator conduct:

Any intentional use of any tool available to a moderator for anything other than appropriate moderation will result in the immediate demotion of that moderator. Depending on the severity of the action, banning may also be imposed at the discretion AnandTech. Decisions made by AnandTech in matters of this nature will be permanent, irrevocable, and not subject to debate.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[Idontcare]

After having spoken with Keysplayr on the phone over this accusation, I am unlocking this thread so he can defend his integrity.

Keysplayr did not divulge any IP address info, nor has he abused his moderator powers in any capacity, as has been directly accused or indirectly implied here.

I have not spoken with Apoppin, but this appears to be a case where he played a hunch on the basis of having connected some circumstantial dots that included a similar likeness in member sigs to have felt reasonably confident that a member there was also a member here. He may have bluffed as to how he knew what he claimed to know, but in the end nothing inappropriate has happened here at the AnandTech Forums.

With that I will unlock this thread. But get back on topic people. Keysplayr is allowed to post one post in his defense, anyone who takes exception to that needs to do so by pm or in Moderator Discussion. But NOT HERE.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[Keysplayr]

Thank you Idontcare.

I haven't posted in this thead as a courtesy to those who would be tempted to attack me and incur infractions or even worse, vacations. Not what I want this thread to do you you. As Idontcare stated, it's an inflammatory topic, not inflammatory in it's posted intent. It's intent is to inform. Just discuss whatever info is available, don't accuse, don't harass. Not necessary. If none of the info is of any use to you, move on. Those that find what ABT has to say, useful or the very least interesting, that is great.
There isn't anything actually necessitating the rabid attacks I have seen here.
Be calm, be cool, be informed or not. Even if it's all BS to you, it may not be to another. Consider that.

 

[railven]

Way too many coincidental dots if you ask me, but whatever.

Until Appopin delivers it's all just a bunch of nonsense. I want some shills dammit

Oh well, back to waiting for tech articles from a tech site who's only editor, it seems, is too busy going on witch hunts.

 

[formulav8]

Probably be best to just kill this thread and the nvidia based one as well.

 

[railven]

Thank you Idontcare.

I haven't posted in this thead as a courtesy to those who would be tempted to attack me and incur infractions or even worse, vacations. Not what I want this thread to do you you. As Idontcare stated, it's an inflammatory topic, not inflammatory in it's posted intent. It's intent is to inform. Just discuss whatever info is available, don't accuse, don't harass. Not necessary. If none of the info is of any use to you, move on. Those that find what ABT has to say, useful or the very least interesting, that is great.
There isn't anything actually necessitating the rabid attacks I have seen here.
Be calm, be cool, be informed or not. Even if it's all BS to you, it may not be to another. Consider that.

I have an honest question for you, why are you bringing this stuff here to ATF? I'm seriously curious. The ABT community has pretty much made a strong vocal statement of their disdain for the ATF community. This is beside the point of the site's owner (I can easily quote you current ATF members bashing ATF - the community - over at ABT.)

I'm a person that lives by - you say something, own up to it. It just seems these recent cross linking of ABT has done nothing for this community except create speculation of its members and further create a schism of the proponents of each team.

Just curious what you were trying to accomplish by bringing that, obviously inflammatory content, to the attention of the community here?

 

[WelshBloke]

Way too many coincidental dots if you ask me, but whatever.

Until Appopin delivers it's all just a bunch of nonsense. I want some shills dammit

Oh well, back to waiting for tech articles from a tech site who's only editor, it seems, is too busy going on witch hunts.

I think Apoppins pulling things out of his butt left right and centre, I see no reason to believe him about the viral marketing and less reason to believe him about the ip addresses.

In short I think Apoppins FOS and Keys may be stirring the pot a bit but wouldn't have given any ip addresses over.

 

[96Firebird]

Apoppoin could have easily traced his IP to Greensboro, easy enough to connect those dots.

 

[railven]

I think Apoppins pulling things out of his butt left right and centre, I see no reason to believe him about the viral marketing and less reason to believe him about the ip addresses.

In short I think Apoppins FOS and Keys may be stirring the pot a bit but wouldn't have given any ip addresses over.

I'd have to say I agree with you the more I read the articles/posts over at ABT. It seems he has a big ego and being wrong is something that he doesn't admit to or changes his original position. I also don't like that he can edit his posts (and most likely anyone's as he is an admin) and there is nothing indicating this. I watched him edit a post 3 times over the course of 30 minutes. He adds content to his original post to make it more narrow where as before it would be so broad you could include everything and the kitchen sink in his accusations.

Who is orchestrating this, I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if this strings all the way back to Nv HQ. We can be experience once Chiphell did just in a different fashion.

 

[WelshBloke]

I'd have to say I agree with you the more I read the articles/posts over at ABT. It seems he has a big ego and being wrong is something that he doesn't admit to or changes his original position. I also don't like that he can edit his posts (and most likely anyone's as he is an admin) and there is nothing indicating this. I watched him edit a post 3 times over the course of 30 minutes. He adds content to his original post to make it more narrow where as before it would be so broad you could include everything and the kitchen sink in his accusations.

Who is orchestrating this, I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if this strings all the way back to Nv HQ. We can be experience once Chiphell did just in a different fashion.

I dont think anyones orchestrating anything. Apoppins like a dog with a bone, hes not going to give up on something just because hes wrong. I do think a few people may be taking advantage of him. I dont go to the forum there much but it doesn't have a healthy atmosphere, its full of paranoia and conspirisy theories with members validating each other with no critical thinking.

 

[Grooveriding]

I dont think anyones orchestrating anything. Apoppins like a dog with a bone, hes not going to give up on something just because hes wrong. I do think a few people may be taking advantage of him. I dont go to the forum there much but it doesn't have a healthy atmosphere, its full of paranoia and conspirisy theories with members validating each other with no critical thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDZBgHBHQT8

 

[railven]

I dont think anyones orchestrating anything. Apoppins like a dog with a bone, hes not going to give up on something just because hes wrong. I do think a few people may be taking advantage of him. I dont go to the forum there much but it doesn't have a healthy atmosphere, its full of paranoia and conspirisy theories with members validating each other with no critical thinking.

I was debating creating an account just to respond to some comments, but after I witnessed, basically, a circle joke at the expense of the ATF community, which there is no metric I can imagine that ABT beats ATF at, I pretty much came to the conclusion - that place is a pool of nV fans finding comfort that the acting adminstrator is also a nV fan.

They can complain all they want about other sites and bias, but just reading some of their comments I have no idea how they can accuse others without even looking in the mirror first. EDIT: I should reword this as shouldn't lump them all together, just the majority. I'll let my words stay as is.

Oh well, I'll wait and see if that fabled tri-cross-fire articel every manifest. Maybe after he catches a shill he'll go back to what I thought ABT was about - technology.

 

[Red Storm]

I think Apoppins pulling things out of his butt left right and centre, I see no reason to believe him about the viral marketing and less reason to believe him about the ip addresses.

In short I think Apoppins FOS and Keys may be stirring the pot a bit but wouldn't have given any ip addresses over.

I agree, I don't think Keys or any other mod from AT is involved. Unless solid proof is provided to the contrary, it seems like this is the sole work of ABT.

Idontcare, I'm going to make a general comment on the focus group thing and try to provide a probable reason as to why people feel the need to associate it with "shill". This is about the matter as a whole, not any specific company.

I think the issue some people have is that there is a concern that focus group members - regardless of the company behind them - will refrain from saying anything negative about said company, perhaps out of fear of having their membership revoked. This leads to a situation where other users expect a FG member to only make positive or neutral comments about the company, but never negative ones. It's obvious why that would be a concern.

I have to mention Keys but only because I want to state that the previous paragraph is not aimed at him. I don't keep track of his posts. Heck, I don't even frequent VC&G as much as I used to. I assume the regulars here can attest that he has said his share of positive and negative things about Nvidia. Anyhow, I think that is why any kind of Focus Group member (or equivalent) is going to be met with a critical eye on a tech forum.

 

[WelshBloke]

I agree, I don't think Keys or any other mod from AT is involved. Unless solid proof is provided to the contrary, it seems like this is the sole work of ABT.

Idontcare, I'm going to make a general comment on the focus group thing and try to provide a probable reason as to why people feel the need to associate it with "shill". This is about the matter as a whole, not any specific company.

I think the issue some people have is that there is a concern that focus group members - regardless of the company behind them - will refrain from saying anything negative about said company, perhaps out of fear of having their membership revoked. This leads to a situation where other users expect a FG member to only make positive or neutral comments about the company, but never negative ones. It's obvious why that would be a concern.

I have to mention Keys but only because I want to state that the previous paragraph is not aimed at him. I don't keep track of his posts. Heck, I don't even frequent VC&G as much as I used to. I assume the regulars here can attest that he has said his share of positive and negative things about Nvidia. Anyhow, I think that is why any kind of Focus Group member (or equivalent) is going to be met with a critical eye on a tech forum.

I dont really care if there are focus group members here, hidden or otherwise.

As long as they obey the rules and dont pull a rollo (disrupt the forum with bulls**t and lies) then I dont really see the problem. Its not like people are going to be unbiased just because they are not getting free hardware.

 

[ginfest]

apoppin's still throwing a temper tantrum, huh...

Just curious, does his history with AMD invalidate the article? Because I have not seen the same critique of Kyles constant negative articles about NV from you? If you recall, he had the same issue with them over being provided with "free" review cards.

 

[WelshBloke]

Just curious, does his history with AMD invalidate the article? Because I have not seen the same critique of Kyles constant negative articles about NV from you? If you recall, he had the same issue with them over being provided with "free" review cards.

Meh, Kyle gets in a fit about everyone eventually. Hes been called biased in favour of AMD/ATI/NV/intel/etc, hes also been called biased against AMD/ATI/NV/intel/etc.

 

[SirPauly]

For me, it's really about to engage the points -- not really the poster. Don't shoot the messenger but engage the message with reasonable thinking.

However, do believe that forums are a consumer haven and shouldn't be thought of as prey for predators to try to manipulate.

 

[SirPauly]

Meh, Kyle gets in a fit about everyone eventually. Hes been called biased in favour of AMD/ATI/NV/intel/etc, hes also been called biased against AMD/ATI/NV/intel/etc.

Agreed! Consider Kyle very spirited and passionate and like that about him.

 

[Vesku]

Yep, his original Phenom II review was quite harsh. Just shows you don't have to be a "shill" to come across as having an agenda, imo.

Meh, Kyle gets in a fit about everyone eventually. Hes been called biased in favour of AMD/ATI/NV/intel/etc, hes also been called biased against AMD/ATI/NV/intel/etc.

 

[WelshBloke]

For me, it's really about to engage the points -- not really the poster. Don't shoot the messenger but engage the message with reasonable thinking.

However, do believe that forums are a consumer haven and shouldn't be thought of as prey for predators to try to manipulate.

I'd agree with you but the messenger does take some responsibility for the message.

I'm happy with the way this place is moderated, they do a good job of getting rid of trouble makers while giving a fair bit of freedom for viewpoints in a forum that can get a bit 'heated' sometimes. I think they should also be given more leeway to kick people into touch when needed. I remember rollo hiding behind the forum rules while disrupting the crap out of the place, IMO he should have been told to tone it down or sling his hook a lot earlier.

 

[blastingcap]

I dont really care if there are focus group members here, hidden or otherwise.

As long as they obey the rules and dont pull a rollo (disrupt the forum with bulls**t and lies) then I dont really see the problem. Its not like people are going to be unbiased just because they are not getting free hardware.

In a way I agree, because the marketplace of ideas will shake out the bad posts anyway. If a forumer makes bad arguments, they will get shot down. If they keep doing it, they will develop reputations as illogical/fanbois/whatever and people will give their words less and less weight. If they are disruptive, show them the door. It's only a problem if they are not shown the door, which is why I left HardOCP since the mods let people get away with a LOT of namecalling and bad behavior.

That said, I don't like any of these viral shenanigans. But it is really hard to separate what is an illogical fanboi vs. a paid marketer. You don't want to have a false positive and ban someone for being an illogical fanboi as long as they aren't disruptive.

I also don't think that VM stuff even works, not with a savvy crowd. Frankly if I were an unscrupulous VM manager I would rather spend money trying to bias reviewers or something more productive than paying some random people to bleat about my product. And if I were CEO of a tech company making products that could be easily measured objectively, I would fire my entire VM staff in the first place. These are tech products; they can be measured much more meaningfully than other things that you could VM. You can't hide crappy performance that well by marketing.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Who is orchestrating this, I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if this strings all the way back to Nv HQ. We can be experience once Chiphell did just in a different fashion.

Why do people keep bringing up the chiphell incident.. If you know how to read mandarin, the mods there never came up with any evidence that nVIDIA was connected since so many users were asking for proof. I think that thread should be locked because it has virtually no substance.

nVIDIA was caught for viral marketing a long time ago. They came forth and admitted to it, changed ways, made their focus members public to boot. That was the end of that and I cant see them doing anything like AEG again. Most of the focus members Ive dealt was very helpful, along them was ChrisRay. These guys (minus Rollo and a few) weren't there downplaying AMD tech left right centre but instead helping nVIDIA users get most out of their cards and share their experience so that others can learn about/enjoy their new products. SLi AA for instance was implemented (not anymore though) due to the community and one focus group member who sadly passed away.

Sorry for going OT, but with regards to the OP the question of whether or not there are AMD shills on these boards and others is yet to be proved. This doesn't mean they don't exist either which would be very very naive to think so. So for me, Im just keeping an eye of how these recent events unfold.

For some users, Apoppin or Mark is just doing this to have more page hits, paranoid at AMD etc, but from what Ive known about him (hes been around for a very long time since I started reading the forums during the start of NV40/RV420 days) hes not the type of person to do the following and literally troll the tech community with supposedly "outlandish" comments about AMD shills existing. Maybe I could be wrong but Id think that he has thought this over and over, then decided to make the knowledge public and raise awareness for the good of the internet tech community. Guess we are all about to find out soon?

 

[Grooveriding]

I also don't think that VM stuff even works, not with a savvy crowd. Frankly if I were an unscrupulous VM manager I would rather spend money trying to bias reviewers or something more productive than paying some random people to bleat about my product. And if I were CEO of a tech company making products that could be easily measured objectively, I would fire my entire VM staff in the first place. These are tech products; they can be measured much more meaningfully than other things that you could VM. You can't hide crappy performance that well by marketing.

Disagree on this. Performance becomes irrelevant once you instill an emotional attachment to a brand. That's a large part of the viral marketing, and marketing in general, quotient. Doing it via a tech forum is a good way to instill that sort of emotion.

If you'd of seen Rollo in his heyday here you would of seen a perfect example. He was a masterful troll and manipulator and really good at it, nothing to be commended for, it's like saying someone is a good thief or bank robber. He trolled endlessly, baited and had people infracted, warned and banned. He had his own fan club and troupe around here, many of them were even recommending him to be a mod - and this was after it came out that he was a nvidia compensated viral marketing shill and liar.

Marketers whether viral or otherwise are trying to get you to be emotionally attached to their brand, after that performance considerations even become moot. I remember people praising the 2900XT when it was an obvious turd the same way I saw people waiting a good year after the 5870/5850 came out to finally buy a GTX 460 because they are just that loyal to nvidia.

 

[Cookie Monster]

In a way I agree, because the marketplace of ideas will shake out the bad posts anyway. If a forumer makes bad arguments, they will get shot down. If they keep doing it, they will develop reputations as illogical/fanbois/whatever and people will give their words less and less weight. If they are disruptive, show them the door. It's only a problem if they are not shown the door, which is why I left HardOCP since the mods let people get away with a LOT of namecalling and bad behavior.

That said, I don't like any of these viral shenanigans. But it is really hard to separate what is an illogical fanboi vs. a paid marketer. You don't want to have a false positive and ban someone for being an illogical fanboi as long as they aren't disruptive.

I also don't think that VM stuff even works, not with a savvy crowd. Frankly if I were an unscrupulous VM manager I would rather spend money trying to bias reviewers or something more productive than paying some random people to bleat about my product. And if I were CEO of a tech company making products that could be easily measured objectively, I would fire my entire VM staff in the first place. These are tech products; they can be measured much more meaningfully than other things that you could VM. You can't hide crappy performance that well by marketing.

+1. Well said.

 

[WelshBloke]

Disagree on this. Performance becomes irrelevant once you instill an emotional attachment to a brand. That's a large part of the viral marketing, and marketing in general, quotient. Doing it via a tech forum is a good way to instill that sort of emotion.

If you'd of seen Rollo in his heyday here you would of seen a perfect example. He was a masterful troll and manipulator and really good at it, nothing to be commended for, it's like saying someone is a good thief or bank robber. He trolled endlessly, baited and had people infracted, warned and banned. He had his own fan club and troupe around here, many of them were even recommending him to be a mod - and this was after it came out that he was a nvidia compensated viral marketing shill and liar.

Marketers whether viral or otherwise are trying to get you to be emotionally attached to their brand, after that performance considerations even become moot. I remember people praising the 2900XT when it was an obvious turd the same way I saw people waiting a good year after the 5870/5850 came out to finally buy a GTX 460 because they are just that loyal to nvidia.

Rollo certainly made the forum a less pleasant place but I doubt that he helped to sell any more NV cards.