Discussion AMD’s Custom APU Discussion Thread

[Tigerick]

Next Gen XBox Consoles and Handheld Preliminary Specs

	ROG Xbox Ally / SteamDeck OLED	PS6 Handheld ?	ROG Xbox Ally X		PS5	Steam Console Fremont	Xbox Series S		Xbox Series X	X2 ?		PS5 Pro	PS6 ?
Date	2025	Fall 2027 ?	2025		2020		2020		2020			2024	Fall 2027?
Codename	Aerith Plus	Canis	Strix Point			Hawk Point				Magnus		Custom	Orion
Model	Z2A		Z2 Extreme AI
	N6	3 nm	N4P		N6	N4 + N6	N7		N7P	N3P + N3P ?		N4P	3nm Single Die
		135 mm2 ?	233 mm2		260 mm2	178 + 204 = 382 mm2	197 mm2		360.45 mm2	144 + 264 = 408 mm2		279 mm2	280 mm2
CPU	4 x Zen 2	4 x Zen 6c + 2 x Zen 6 LP	4 x Zen 5 + 4 x Zen 5c		8 x Zen 2	6 x Zen 4 <= 16MB L3	8 x Zen 2		8 x Zen 2	3 x Zen 6 + 8 Zen 6c 12MB L3		8 x Zen 2	7 x Zen 6c + 2 x Zen 6 LP 8-12 MB L3?
						8GB 128-bit DDR5
GPU	RDNA2 8CU	RDNA5 16 CU	RDNA3.5 16CU		RDNA2 36CU	RX-7600 RDNA3 32CU 32MB IC	RDNA2 20CU		RDNA2 52CU	RDNA5 68CU 12MB L2 ?		RDNA2 60CU	RDNA5 52CU 10MB L2
Memory	16GB 128-bit LPDDR5-6400	18GB 192-bit LPDDR5x-8533	24GB 128-bit LPDDR5x-8000		16GB 256-bit GDDR6	8GB 128-bit GDDR6	8GB 128-bit+ 2GB 32-bit GDDR6		10GB 320-bit GDDR6 + 6GB 192-bit GDDR6	30GB 192-bit 36Gbps GDDR7 ?		16GB 256-bit GDDR6	20GB 160-bit 32Gbps GDDR7 ?
Memory Bandwidth	102 GB/s	204 GB/s	120 GB/s		448 GB/s	288 GB/s	224 GB/s		560 GB/s	864 GB/s		576 GB/s	640 GB/s

 

[johnsonwax]

They aren't going to run upscalers on the NPU.

Apple does. MetalFX does temporal upscaling on ANE, spatial upscaling on GPU.

 

[Tigerick]

Valve Fremont Spotted With Custom AMD Hawk Point 2 SoC: 6 "Zen 4" CPU Cores, 16 MB L3 Cache, 4.8 GHz Clocks & Radeon RX 7600 "RDNA 3" GPU

Valve appears to be preparing a brand-new gaming console, called Fremont, which features a custom AMD SoC with 6 cores & a Radeon 7000 GPU.

wccftech.com

Steam console incoming. CPU should be using 6 x Zen4 Hawk Point APU (N4) and 8GB DDR5.

GPU might be using dedicated RX7600 with max 32-CU and 128-bit 8 GB GDDR6 (288GB/s). RX7600 is made by TSMC's N6, even though the die area is quite large, the performance should be much faster than Series S (10GB GDDR6) with 8+8=16GB total memory...

Selling price should be in range of $300 - $400 to remain competitive 

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Valve Fremont Spotted With Custom AMD Hawk Point 2 SoC: 6 "Zen 4" CPU Cores, 16 MB L3 Cache, 4.8 GHz Clocks & Radeon RX 7600 "RDNA 3" GPU

Valve appears to be preparing a brand-new gaming console, called Fremont, which features a custom AMD SoC with 6 cores & a Radeon 7000 GPU.

wccftech.com

Steam console incoming. CPU should be using 6 x Zen4 Hawk Point APU (N4) and 8GB DDR5.

GPU might be using dedicated RX7600 with max 32-CU and 128-bit 8 GB GDDR6 (288GB/s). RX7600 is made by TSMC's N6, even though the die area is quite large, the performance should be much faster than Series S (10GB GDDR6) with 8+8=16GB total memory...

Selling price should be in range of $300 - $400 to remain competitive 

If Valve finds a way to finetune the VRAM allocation, this could have GPU performance parity with the PS5 but with better CPU performance.
And if FSR4 finds its way to RDNA3 (which we now know AMD is working on, as proven by yesterday's FSR4 github "leaks"), this could be a nice little box full of potential. And hopefully pretty cheap.

 

[Tigerick]

And hopefully pretty cheap.

Yep, the most important is how much Valve is going to set the price for Steam console. Both Hawk Point APU and RX-7600 GPU are off-the-self silicons. Hawk Point is being cut off iGPU and NPU, thus it is considered rubbish bin. Meanwhile RX-7600 is considered EOL GPU. Thus, I can see Valve is choosing Hawk Point APU and RX7600 for one sole reason: BOM cost. Valve going to set aggressive price for Steam console, no doubt...And no more custom silicon for Steam console.

And AMD agrees to supply cut die of Hawk Point and RX7600. This is how business works: If Valve wants something at aggressive BOM; AMD will find something to meet the demand of value customers.

 

[marees]

Yep, the most important is how much Valve is going to set the price for Steam console. Both Hawk Point APU and RX-7600 GPU are off-the-self silicons. Hawk Point is being cut off iGPU and NPU, thus it is considered rubbish bin. Meanwhile RX-7600 is considered EOL GPU. Thus, I can see Valve is choosing Hawk Point APU and RX7600 for one sole reason: BOM cost. Valve going to set aggressive price for Steam console, no doubt...And no more custom silicon for Steam console.

And AMD agrees to supply cut die of Hawk Point and RX7600. This is how business works: If Valve wants something at aggressive BOM; AMD will find something to meet the demand of value customers.

What if it turns out in the end that this is only a dev kit and the real valve console is based on strix halo ??

 

[LightningZ71]

Yep, the most important is how much Valve is going to set the price for Steam console. Both Hawk Point APU and RX-7600 GPU are off-the-self silicons. Hawk Point is being cut off iGPU and NPU, thus it is considered rubbish bin. Meanwhile RX-7600 is considered EOL GPU. Thus, I can see Valve is choosing Hawk Point APU and RX7600 for one sole reason: BOM cost. Valve going to set aggressive price for Steam console, no doubt...And no more custom silicon for Steam console.

And AMD agrees to supply cut die of Hawk Point and RX7600. This is how business works: If Valve wants something at aggressive BOM; AMD will find something to meet the demand of value customers.

The way I've read the rumors, it's actually a custom floorplan that fully excludes the iGPU and NPU sections, minimizing silicon usage.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

The way I've read the rumors, it's actually a custom floorplan that fully excludes the iGPU and NPU sections, minimizing silicon usage.

If this is true, then what @adroc_thurston 's been saying about AMD refusing to do a semicustom for Valve's Deck 2 doesn't make much sense.

Why would AMD build a semicustom for Valve's Fremont CPU but not for Valve's Deck 2 SoC that will probably get higher sales volume?

 

[marees]

If this is true, then what @adroc_thurston 's been saying about AMD refusing to do a semicustom for Valve's Deck 2 doesn't make much sense.

Why would AMD build a semicustom for Valve's Fremont CPU but not for Valve's Deck 2 that will probably get higher sales volume?

AFAIK Valve has said current process nodes are too costly

Nothing until 2027 / 2028, I bet

 

[Kepler_L2]

Why would AMD build a semicustom for Valve's Fremont CPU

They aren't

 

[jpiniero]

I could see AMD still doing it though (a Hawk Point die with the IGP/NPU removed).

 

[coercitiv]

I could see AMD still doing it though (a Hawk Point die with the IGP/NPU removed).

Or just sell them salvaged dies.

 

[reaperrr3]

I could see AMD still doing it though (a Hawk Point die with the IGP/NPU removed).

Fixed cost for design, tape-out, masks etc. on modern processes are so high and get so much more expensive for each newer process that it would likely be more profitable (or even be a requirement for profitability) to use an existing design, partially disabled/clocked down to fit the use case.

That's the whole reason the Medusas and AT3/4 look the way they do.
AMD is trying to cover as many market segments as possible with as few chip designs as possible (and with as many of them as possible on the cheaper, higher-volume N3 instead of N2).

 

[adroc_thurston]

That's the whole reason the Medusas and AT3/4 look the way they do.
AMD is trying to cover as many market segments as possible with as few chip designs as possible

Ding-ding-ding!
The whole lineup there is carefully constructed around having maximum config pop options from the minimal TO count.
Extra creative work there.

 

[LightningZ71]

With as expensive as each wafer on N4 family nodes is, the cost re-floorplan and do a new mask set must be absolutely astronomical when the resulting chip could be as much as 30-40% smaller than the full dress die (no iGPU, no NPU, half the USB and PCIe root nodes gone, no SATA needed at all, no display engine, no media engine). Yields must be extremely high by this point to the point that I doubt that there will be few, if any "salvage" dies going towards Steam's usage and it'll be just intentionally crippled perfectly functional dies instead.

 

[Tigerick]

MLID has some interesting leaks about Canis APU. As usual I don't believe in all leaks; below is my assessment:

PS6 Handheld

• Canis is considered full upgrade of Aerith+: Doubling CU and memory bandwidth (Please refer to my table in the main page) by using 192-bit LPDDR5x-8533 memory bus.
• 135mm2 might not 100% accurate: Reduction of CPU cores and removal of NPU might help but 192-bit memory bus, hmm. Anyhow, Canis is Z2 Extreme should have been. Guess that's the difference between off-the-shelf and semi-custom APU.
• Just like AT2 will be used on multiple brands, Canis might not be used specific for PS6 Handheld. Based on timing on next Xbox handheld, Microsoft might be using variant of Canis as well. So does Valve's SteamDeck2. Core count and memory interface might be difference though, we shall see....
• 36GB LPDDRx-8533? Really? PS6 Handheld is designed to run PS5 games at likely Full-HD resolution. AI is not something to consider atm; thus I believe the sweet size would be 18GB, half of size of MLID predicted. I agree with MLID in MSRP $399 - $499 though...

PS6S Canis Console

• Canis used as PS6 Slim? Really? Even with 16CU and 204GB/s memory bandwidth, Canis is still far behind in terms of specs of PS5 @ 8 x CPU, 36CU and 448GB/s GDDR6. Just like PS4 Slim, PS5 Slim would most likely using same SoC with slimmer chassis which should come with 256-bit 16GB GDDR6 as well.
• It is AT3 and AT4 rumors all over again, MLID doesn't have technical AND business POV to speculate. AMD won't use most advanced process for entry system, all OEMs including Apple are rather using filter down older process SoC than creating something new which design cost is skyrocketing..And AMD does not have the volumes for discreet GPU unlike NV. That's why AMD rather uses cut down version of AT2 to replace N44 and N48.

 

[marees]

Just like AT2 will be used on multiple brands, Canis might not be used specific for PS6 Handheld. Based on timing on next Xbox handheld, Microsoft might be using variant of Canis as well. So does Valve's SteamDeck2. Core count and memory interface might be difference though, we shall see....

Sony never uses chiplets. They go for a compact (monolithic) design with high thru put & frequency

If AT4 in medusa premium is real and if it is also true that it slots into the same socket As z2e (strix point), then that should be the Z3E

Basically the 'xbox' rog Ally x2 (tbr 2028?) will be the medusa premium with 24 RDNA CUs

(Btw: Microsoft is never releasing a first party (surface) handheld. Too much $$$$ to be practical )

 

[marees]

No leak of Steam Deck 2 apu so far !!???

 

[adroc_thurston]

No leak of Steam Deck 2 apu so far !!???

It doesn't exist.
AMD told Valve to pound sand.

 

[marees]

It doesn't exist.
AMD told Valve to pound sand.

So no steam deck 2 until 2029 or 2030 (zen 7 / rdna 6) ???

 

[adroc_thurston]

So no steam deck 2 until 2029 or 2030 (zen 7 / rdna 6) ???

No, Valve can just choose to have a custom SKU of any existing part they wish.
What they can't have is a purpose-built 12W tablet part.

 

[marees]

Seems to me that given medusa point is rdna 3.5 (no FSR 4, no ML, resulting in NPU tax by Microsoft) & medusa premium would be too much of a premium for Valve — hence steam deck would be medusa point 1/2/3 successor with zen 7 & RDNA 5

So even 2028 seems unlikely. Most probably 2029

News - ROG Xbox Ally and ROG Xbox Ally X launch October 16

I'm still struggling to understand how they plan to make any kind of substantial profit off of this product. Increased Gamepass subs? 🤔 It's a very longterm gameplan. Microsoft simply understand that media is going digital and a subscription based service will pay great dividends in the end. As...

www.neogaf.com

 

[marees]

Seems to me that given medusa point is rdna 3.5 (no FSR 4, no ML, resulting in NPU tax by Microsoft) & medusa premium would be too much of a premium for Valve — hence steam deck would be medusa point 1/2/3 successor with zen 7 & RDNA 5

So even 2028 seems unlikely. Most probably 2029

View attachment 129661

News - ROG Xbox Ally and ROG Xbox Ally X launch October 16

I'm still struggling to understand how they plan to make any kind of substantial profit off of this product. Increased Gamepass subs? 🤔 It's a very longterm gameplan. Microsoft simply understand that media is going digital and a subscription based service will pay great dividends in the end. As...

www.neogaf.com

Something like canis

2x zen 7
2x zen 7c
2x zen 7lp
8x RDNA 5 WGP
TSMC N3E

 

[adroc_thurston]

medusa premium would be too much of a premium for Valve

They can pick a cheap downbin.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Something like canis

2x zen 7
2x zen 7c
2x zen 7lp
8x RDNA 5 WGP
TSMC N3E

4+2 is insufficient and N3e doesn't exist in 2028.

 

[marees]

PS6 specs (as claimed by MLID)

Memory Bus size seems too small, imo

Leaked specs (the most odd thing is the narrow memory bus)

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/1076...-ready-for-next-gen-gaming-in-2027/index.html