Discussion AMD’s Custom APU Discussion Thread

[Tigerick]

Next Gen XBox Consoles and Handheld Preliminary Specs

	ROG Xbox Ally / SteamDeck OLED	PS6 Handheld ?	ROG Xbox Ally X		PS5	Steam Console Fremont	Xbox Series S		Xbox Series X	X2 ?		PS5 Pro	PS6 ?
Date	2025	Fall 2027 ?	2025		2020		2020		2020			2024	Fall 2027?
Codename	Aerith Plus	Canis	Strix Point			Hawk Point				Magnus		Custom	Orion
Model	Z2A		Z2 Extreme AI
	N6	3 nm	N4P		N6	N4 + N6	N7		N7P	N3P + N3P ?		N4P	3nm Single Die
		135 mm2 ?	233 mm2		260 mm2	178 + 204 = 382 mm2	197 mm2		360.45 mm2	144 + 264 = 408 mm2		279 mm2	280 mm2
CPU	4 x Zen 2	4 x Zen 6c + 2 x Zen 6 LP	4 x Zen 5 + 4 x Zen 5c		8 x Zen 2	6 x Zen 4 <= 16MB L3	8 x Zen 2		8 x Zen 2	3 x Zen 6 + 8 Zen 6c 12MB L3		8 x Zen 2	7 x Zen 6c + 2 x Zen 6 LP 8-12 MB L3?
						8GB 128-bit DDR5
GPU	RDNA2 8CU	RDNA5 16 CU	RDNA3.5 16CU		RDNA2 36CU	RX-7600 RDNA3 32CU 32MB IC	RDNA2 20CU		RDNA2 52CU	RDNA5 68CU 12MB L2 ?		RDNA2 60CU	RDNA5 52CU 10MB L2
Memory	16GB 128-bit LPDDR5-6400	18GB 192-bit LPDDR5x-8533	24GB 128-bit LPDDR5x-8000		16GB 256-bit GDDR6	8GB 128-bit GDDR6	8GB 128-bit+ 2GB 32-bit GDDR6		10GB 320-bit GDDR6 + 6GB 192-bit GDDR6	30GB 192-bit 36Gbps GDDR7 ?		16GB 256-bit GDDR6	20GB 160-bit 32Gbps GDDR7 ?
Memory Bandwidth	102 GB/s	204 GB/s	120 GB/s		448 GB/s	288 GB/s	224 GB/s		560 GB/s	864 GB/s		576 GB/s	640 GB/s

 

[adroc_thurston]

Memory Bus size seems too small, imo

Nope.

Leaked specs (the most odd thing is the narrow memory bus)

It's not odd, gfx13 is nice and you can hit capacity points via 24/32Gbit dies all the same with GDDR7.
Looks to be a fairly DRAM-centric console gen.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Interesting that Sony is skipping the non-dense Zen6 altogether. I guess their cut-down FP units in Zen2 were already showing they don't think single threaded performance is that important to them.

OTOH, Microsoft bringing big Zen6 cores shows how they're more inclined to the PC ecossystem.

 

[marees]

Interesting that Sony is skipping the non-dense Zen6 altogether. I guess their cut-down FP units in Zen2 were already showing they don't think single threaded performance is that important to them.

OTOH, Microsoft bringing big Zen6 cores shows how they're more inclined to the PC ecossystem.

I think bottom line seems to be that Sony has a power budget this time

 

[adroc_thurston]

I think bottom line seems to be that Sony has a power budget this time

They have a cost limit.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I think bottom line seems to be that Sony has a power budget this time

Lower power budget is actually pretty great if you intend to release a Pro console and a full-performance handheld after 4 to 5 years.

 

[jpiniero]

Lower power budget is actually pretty great if you intend to release a Pro console and a full-performance handheld after 4 to 5 years.

But if these specs are even close to legit (and it is MLID)... it's not going to be a cheap console and not much better than the PS5 Pro (except for the CPU). FSR4 (well Pisser) and Frame Gen is going to have a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to marketing the power.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

But if these specs are even close to legit (and it is MLID)... it's not going to be a cheap console and not much better than the PS5 Pro (except for the CPU). FSR4 (well Pisser) and Frame Gen is going to have a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to marketing the power.

N3 in 2027 shouldn't be that expensive, and the SoC already starts smaller than the PS5's. It should be a lot better than the PS5 Pro, just like the PS5 was a lot better than the PS4 Pro's despite a similarly wide GPU.

Regardless, the percentage of GPU compute cycles dedicated to rasterization is probably going down, the PS6 is probably going for 1080p base resolution or lower for a 4K presentation so the compute demands should be rather different.

 

[adroc_thurston]

and not much better than the PS5 Pro

a) it's a shrink
b) gfx13 is much, much better than the weird 10.0 fork Sony used

We're kinda past the point of raw ALU counts mattering much.

 

[jpiniero]

N3 in 2027 shouldn't be that expensive

If anything it'll be more expensive than today.

Edit: Forgot to add, I expect Sony to continue to sell the PS5 even after the PS6 launches. Maybe they will cut the price back to the original MSRP if the Tariffs get overturned.

 

[marees]

If anything it'll be more expensive than today.

Hope not. Arizona plant should be online by then

 

[adroc_thurston]

Arizona plant should be online by then

That's the one with more expensive labor though.

 

[jpiniero]

Hope not. Arizona plant should be online by then

Didn't TSMC say they were going to charge like 30% more for any US wafers?

 

[511]

Didn't TSMC say they were going to charge like 30% more for any US wafers?

AMD said 5-20% more expensive Wafers in US vs Taiwan plus N3P is not coming online before H2 26 at best in US.
At 20-25% more expensive it becomes a N2 Price xDd

 

[Tigerick]

Magnus SoC = Medusa Premium SoC ?



Hoho, I am pretty sure Magnus SoC is having same die as Medusa Premium SoC with 4 x Zen6 + 8 x Zen6c CPU. That's mean Magnus is not using custom design at all. Due to low sales volume, Microsoft no longer afford to custom design SoC and going to use off the shelf silicons from AMD; just like upcoming Valve's Fremont. Magnus is using combination of Medusa Premium SoC+CPU and AT2 GPU with 18GB? 192-bit GDDR7 as total system memory. Of course, to justify low BOM, AMD will cut many features from the die:

• One Zen6 core.
• STX is having 16+8=24MB L3 cache, Medusa Premium should have the same amount of L3 cache even though the CPUs are having different cluster design. Thus, Magnus SoC's L3 cache might be cut by half.
• AMD might disable certain amount of PCIe and USB PHY.
• There is no NPU and GPU integrated with SoC, thus the die size of 144mm2 might be true. Therefore, Medusa Premium SoC should be smaller than Medusa Point APU (4+4+2) with GPU and NPU.

 

[marees]

Magnus SoC = Medusa Premium SoC ?

View attachment 130277

Hoho, I am pretty sure Magnus SoC is having same die as Medusa Premium SoC with 4 x Zen6 + 8 x Zen6c CPU. That's mean Magnus is not using custom design at all. Due to low sales volume, Microsoft no longer afford to custom design SoC and going to use off the shelf silicons from AMD; just like upcoming Valve's Fremont. Magnus is using combination of Medusa Premium SoC+CPU and AT2 GPU with 18GB? 192-bit GDDR7 as total system memory. Of course, to justify low BOM, AMD will cut many features from the die:

• One Zen6 core.
• STX is having 16+8=24MB L3 cache, Medusa Premium should have the same amount of L3 cache even though the CPUs are having different cluster design. Thus, Magnus SoC's L3 cache might be cut by half.
• AMD might disable certain amount of PCIe and USB PHY.
• There is no NPU and GPU integrated with SoC, thus the die size of 144mm2 might be true. Therefore, Medusa Premium SoC should be smaller than Medusa Point APU (4+4+2) with GPU and NPU.

If true that seems very clever. Both handheld & box console share the same CPU/IOD die but the GPUs are in ~ 3:1 ratio (like the series X & S )

 

[adroc_thurston]

If true that seems very clever

nope.

 

[MrMPFR]

Memory Bus size seems too small, imo

@32gbps 160bit (PS6) = @20gbps 256 bit (9070XT).
52 CUs vs 64 CUs, lower clocks, new clean slate µarch boosting memory and cache efficiency
10MB L2 is a little low, but prob fine.

PS6 will use tons of upscaling and use 1080p internal res or lower. 160bit is fine.

Interesting that Sony is skipping the non-dense Zen6 altogether.

PS5 got away with ~1700 eq CPU and PS6 CPU more potent.
More stuff gets offloaded to GPU over time, AI will only increase that trend. Work Graphs will offload even more work to GPU and slash CPU overhead.

8 x Zen6C 16MB L3 for games + 2 LP for background and OS is plenty.
CPU really another tradeoff to maximize GPU area. Orion will be the most GPU focused console SoC ever.

 

[MrMPFR]

N3 in 2027 shouldn't be that expensive, and the SoC already starts smaller than the PS5's.

N3 is already very expensive, even worse with future US manufacturing (Extrapolating from N5 markup). In +2027 PS6 SoC prob >2X PS5 N7 SoC and >2.5X PS5 N6 SoC for global console sales, even worse for US market unless Tariff situation changes (unlikely).

What do you think will happen when everyone currently on N5/N4 moves to N3 next year? NVIDIA Rubin DC on N3 until at least 2028, dGPU and mobile prob till 2029, all RDNA5 GMDs, consoles in +2027, Zen7 IODs just to mention a few. Expect hikes next year and the year after that etc... N3 gonna climb well above 20K/wafer.
And worst of all a lot of companies and products will stay on N3, much worse than N7. N2 wafer pricing and design costs prohibitively expensive + PPA gains mediocre at best. Nodes beyond that even worse. So less reason than ever for many companies and products use bleeding edge.

All this putting a permanent pressure on N3 pricing unless TSMC increases supply sufficiently, which they have no reason to unless Samsung and TSMC provides a compelling alternative (unlikely).

Regardless, the percentage of GPU compute cycles dedicated to rasterization is probably going down, the PS6 is probably going for 1080p base resolution or lower for a 4K presentation so the compute demands should be rather different.

Yep. Prob similar or slightly higher internal res than PS5 performance mode in games, lots of work offloaded to ML and RT HW and still >2X raster.
Will be interesting to see what they end up spending the extra compute on. Just a guess but perhaps procedural generation, nextgen physics, various complex simulations.
For ML 2X FP8 tops vs RDNA 4 per CU, probably 4X in reality if AMD makes a compelling NVFP4 alternative.
RT HW well beyond RDNA 4.

Overall the PS6 looks solidly nextgen.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

PS5 got away with ~1700 eq CPU and PS6 CPU more potent.
More stuff gets offloaded to GPU over time, AI will only increase that trend. Work Graphs will offload even more work to GPU and slash CPU overhead.

8 x Zen6C 16MB L3 for games + 2 LP for background and OS is plenty.
CPU really another tradeoff to maximize GPU area. Orion will be the most GPU focused console SoC ever.

I think Zen6c is plenty as well, especially considering how the FP256-reduced Zen2 in the PS5/PS5 Pro aren't bottlenecks to this day. My point was that Sony not adopting the higher clocked Zen6 comes from the fact that it's not running a PC environment where single-threaded performance is more important (mostly due to all the javascript we run in our apps and webapps). It's a clear distinction from Magnus where Microsoft is probably going to sell it as a windows or windows-capable PC that is properly tuned for videogames.

High single-threaded CPU performance in PC games seems to be needed mostly for crossing GPU driver overhead on windows more than anything else.

What do you think will happen when everyone currently on N5/N4 moves to N3 next year? NVIDIA Rubin DC on N3 until at least 2028, dGPU and mobile prob till 2029, all RDNA5 GMDs, consoles in +2027, Zen7 IODs just to mention a few. Expect hikes next year and the year after that etc... N3 gonna climb well above 20K/wafer.

You're assuming N3 will get more expensive despite more TSMC fabs starting to produce those wafers, plus more competition to that node from Samsung and Intel?

 

[marees]

I think Zen6c is plenty as well, especially considering how the FP256-reduced Zen2 in the PS5/PS5 Pro aren't bottlenecks to this day. My point was that Sony not adopting the higher clocked Zen6 comes from the fact that it's not running a PC environment where single-threaded performance is more important (mostly due to all the javascript we run in our apps and webapps). It's a clear distinction from Magnus where Microsoft is probably going to sell it as a windows or windows-capable PC that is properly tuned for videogames.

High single-threaded CPU performance in PC games seems to be needed mostly for crossing GPU driver overhead on windows more than anything else.




You're assuming N3 will get more expensive despite more TSMC fabs starting to produce those wafers, plus more competition to that node from Samsung and Intel?

In normal course of things N3 price should decrease

But tariffs & ICE raids are a wild card here

Plus 4nm / 5nm could drop in price to compensate price increase of 2nm/3nm

All depends on Samsung 2nm yields, I guess

 

[MrMPFR]

I think Zen6c is plenty as well, especially considering how the FP256-reduced Zen2 in the PS5/PS5 Pro aren't bottlenecks to this day. My point was that Sony not adopting the higher clocked Zen6 comes from the fact that it's not running a PC environment where single-threaded performance is more important (mostly due to all the javascript we run in our apps and webapps). It's a clear distinction from Magnus where Microsoft is probably going to sell it as a windows or windows-capable PC that is properly tuned for videogames.

Agreed.

You're assuming N3 will get more expensive despite more TSMC fabs starting to produce those wafers, plus more competition to that node from Samsung and Intel?

Based on demand surge in the future and the consistent reports on price hikes. N5 saw price hikes, so will N3. Without competition TSMC has a strong incentive to slow fab buildout to increase wafer prices and maximize revenue.

I've not seen any indications that anything will change regarding Samsung and Intel. They have consistently failed executing their process roadmaps and attracting customers for many generations. Currently no indications that anything will change, but hoping for the best as this TSMC monopoly is killing consumer HW progress and it'll only get worse.

 

[511]

N3 is already very expensive, even worse with future US manufacturing (Extrapolating from N5 markup). In +2027 PS6 SoC prob >2X PS5 N7 SoC and >2.5X PS5 N6 SoC.

PS/XBOX is not getting manufacturered in US Fabs btw N3C was supposed to be 5% Cheaper but TSMC raises the price 🤣🤣.

 

[MrMPFR]

PS/XBOX is not getting manufacturered in US Fabs btw N3C was supposed to be 5% Cheaper but TSMC raises the price 🤣🤣.

Indeed. That pricing increase figure is for Taiwanese wafers. My bad, poorly worded sentence.

But if tariff situation worsens they'll have no choice but to use US fabs for US console market, so that's what I assumed (worst case).

 

[511]

Indeed. That pricing increase figure is for Taiwanese wafers. My bad, poorly worded sentence.

But if tariff situation worsens they'll have no choice but to use US fabs for US console market, so that's what I assumed (worst case).

Well what about the assembly/MB/Cooler and all the stuff you can't do that in US as of rn.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

In normal course of things N3 price should decrease

But tariffs & ICE raids are a wild card here

This sounds like a problem exclusive to US residents, though.

And given how fast these things have been changing, tariffs seem more likely to go away than to stay.