Am I the only one annoyed by this?

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Uh, they didnt paper launch the X1950XTX. A paper launc is, setting a date, having reviews out on that date, and no cards available. Setting a relesae date back a few weeks, is not even close to that.

Guess you missed where NV has had more launch problems that ATi as of late. Funny how that works.

We will anounce on the 23rd and press embargo will be lifted. We will state that broad availability (retail on-shelf) will be mid-Sept

isnt that the definition of a paper launch?



nice job trying to start a flamewar with the shot at nvidia :thumbsup:

Nope a paper launch is the 7800gtx 512mb. Never was released. If it really is only 3 weeks until real availability, no biggie. Actually better than most launches. If I remember correctly was a couple of weeks at least until most people were actually getting the 7950's they ordered. Anyways nice job trying to start a flamewar. :beer:

 

[Nelsieus]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Uh, they didnt paper launch the X1950XTX. A paper launc is, setting a date, having reviews out on that date, and no cards available. Setting a relesae date back a few weeks, is not even close to that.

Guess you missed where NV has had more launch problems that ATi as of late. Funny how that works.

We will anounce on the 23rd and press embargo will be lifted. We will state that broad availability (retail on-shelf) will be mid-Sept

isnt that the definition of a paper launch?



nice job trying to start a flamewar with the shot at nvidia :thumbsup:

Nope a paper launch is the 7800gtx 512mb. Never was released. If it really is only 3 weeks until real availability, no biggie. Actually better than most launches. If I remember correctly was a couple of weeks at least until most people were actually getting the 7950's they ordered. Anyways nice job trying to start a flamewar. :beer:

About Geforce 7800GTX 512MB - that right there proves you know absolutely nothing about a paper-launch. If I remember correctly, the Geforce 7800GTX 512MB was actually released before it was launched , then with broad availability the day of launch. You need to stop confusing a paper-launch with availability. The Geforce 7800GTX 512MB did not paper-launch, but yes, it had horrible availability (a week or so after the actual launch).

Also, your argument that "atleast ATI is giving a specific date on when they will have availability" doesn't have much substance. The reason people dislike paper-launches is because so much hype and excitement is built, yet they can't go out and buy the product everyone is raving about. Reviewers dislike paper-launches because they are spending their time and effort on a product that nobody can buy - resulting in more of a PR hype than anything.

Regardless of if ATI sets a date for when availability will be, and whether it's a month or a year after after the release, it doesn't make a difference because there will be no products on the shelf the day the cards are launched, and it seems it will take 3 weeks.

So you and Ackmed can continue to dig a deeper whole, but you'll find ATI won't be there to catch you when you fall.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: Nelsieus
About Geforce 7800GTX 512MB - that right there proves you know absolutely nothing about a paper-launch. If I remember correctly, the Geforce 7800GTX 512MB was actually released before it was launched , then with broad availability the day of launch. You need to stop confusing a paper-launch with availability. The Geforce 7800GTX 512MB did not paper-launch, but yes, it had horrible availability (a week or so after the actual launch).

Also, your argument that "atleast ATI is giving a specific date on when they will have availability" doesn't have much substance. The reason people dislike paper-launches is because so much hype and excitement is built, yet they can't go out and buy the product everyone is raving about. Reviewers dislike paper-launches because they are spending their time and effort on a product that nobody can buy - resulting in more of a PR hype than anything.

Regardless of if ATI sets a date for when availability will be, and whether it's a month or a year after after the release, it doesn't make a difference because there will be no products on the shelf the day the cards are launched, and it seems it will take 3 weeks.

So you and Ackmed can continue to dig a deeper whole, but you'll find ATI won't be there to catch you when you fall.

The 7800GTX 512MB had low availability the day of launch. I believe it sold out in a matter of hours. The problem isn't that it sold out on the first day. The problem was that the amount of cards available was so low that you could actually sell the card for more than you bought it at retail. This was still true two months after the "hard launch" of the card. That's low availability. Almost the same thing happened with the 7900GT(X) launch but on a smaller scale and they had enough availability to keep it from being ebay bait. But availability was low enough that we saw price gouging.

I agree that announcing a product too early and building up excitement is not good. But it all depends on the market. The console market (as well as others) actually rely on this. Personally I don't find a 2-4 week announcement a bad thing as stated in my previous post in this thread. It's just once you get past that time frame it becomes a annoying with no product availability. I find it more annoying when a product launch is handled in the way the 7800GTX 512MB and the 7900's were handled. I was actually quite set on ordering a 7900GT and overclocking it but the price gouging along with the low availability turned me off. Instead I picked up a readily available X1900XT at the then very good price of a tad under $380 shipped.

We can all agree at least that for the past few product launches (excepting Crossfire), ATI has at least had decent availability of it's flagship products when they said it would be available unlike nVidia which has had problems keeping products on shelves. On one hand it's a testament to the fact that nVidia does outsell ATI. By how much is in contention since I've always found GPU sales data to be vague on the most part. On the other hand, when your product has at best two days of availability out of a week for the first 6-8 weeks of it's launch, that's not exactly a sterling example of a product launch. Basically retailers got in a batch of cards once or twice a week and it'd sell out in the same day. It might only be my preference but I'd rather nVidia hold off a product launch two weeks if it means they stockpile more cards to meet demand. If the same thing happens with the G80 launch, I'm going to roll my eyes if anyone cites nVidia as a great example of a company with hard launches.

 

[Nelsieus]

Originally posted by: akugami
I agree that announcing a product too early and building up excitement is not good. But it all depends on the market. The console market (as well as others) actually rely on this. Personally I don't find a 2-4 week announcement a bad thing as stated in my previous post in this thread. It's just once you get past that time frame it becomes a annoying with no product availability.

But like you said, market plays a role. The GPU industry is very rapid, with new products ever few months. This is different than the launch of, let's say a new console debuting every few years, or a new CPU like Core 2 Duo. A two week delay in availability is alright when the scale of the market cycle is every few years (or even one year). But every 6 months makes 2 weeks seem a little bit more significant.

Originally posted by: akugamiWe can all agree at least that for the past few product launches (excepting Crossfire), ATI has at least had decent availability of it's flagship products when they said it would be available unlike nVidia which has had problems keeping products on shelves.

I don't think that's a very accurate assesment, though, for a few reasons. First off, ATi is mostly the one who sets two dates for their GPU's release - the actual announcement - aka paper-launch of which we're discussing - and then the actual day of availability. nVidia, on the other hand, sets a date when both NDA is lifted, and you can actually surf into Newegg and buy it. Yes, Geforce 7900GTX might have had a minor availability problem, but it only lasted a week or two. I suppose if we want to biotch to nVidia about that, then fair enough. But like you said, there was atleast a reason - of demand being overwhelmingly high. Radeon x1950XTX hasn't even launched yet.

So other than Geforce 7800GTX 512MB (which suffered from massive availability issues) and the Geforce 7900GTX with problems to a much lesser magnitude, both nVidia and ATI seem to be doing pretty good with their launches. It's just when you see this (x1950XTX paper-launch) that it kind of makes you cringe. Also don't forget about Radeon x1800XT - launched on Oct. 5, but not available until the begining of Nov.

So I don't think one can point the finger at another side and accuse them of being infamous paper-launchers (which I certainly haven't done). But in this case, I do think x1950XTX has been paper-launched. I mean come on, it was "announced" last month. :roll:

 

[akugami]

Nelsieus...it wouldn't be all that hard for ATI to set an NDA date and launch it at the same time. In fact, nVidia has also set announced products such as the 7300 that would not be released until nearly a month later after denouncing ATI of paper launching. Sorry but I don't disagree with what ATI is doing. It is not different from what Intel does, it is no different from what AMD does, it is no different than what MS does. As I have said, so long as the time of official unveiling and the actual availibility date are within 2-4 weeks, I have no problems with it whether it be from ATI or nVidia.

And btw, even though nVidia outsells ATI cards, ATI has roughly 40-45% of the discrete GPU market so even if nVidia is selling 55-60% of the cards, there should be no reason for such low availability. It's not like nVidia is selling 70-90% of the discreet GPU's. While this excuses them a little bit, it does not in any way excuse them to the tune of 1 (at best 2) days of availability per week for the first 6-8 weeks of a product launch. If that's the case I have to say you should hold off on the product launch until 3 weeks later and stockpile. I mentioned the higher demand for nVidia cards as a reason for lower availability but you can't tell me nVidia underestimated demand by such a huge amount. I am of the opinion that nVidia knew darned well there would be extremely low availability of the 7900 series of cards and that they just didn't want to wait 2 months after the X1900 launch to stockpile a sufficient amount of cards. It would also be naive to think that ATI can't do the same thing as nVidia and just launch cards early to low availability for the first month. I'm actually quite certain that should ATI wish, they could pull have pulled an Aug 23-30 launch of the cards, lifting the NDA on Aug 23 and have cards to retailers within the week but availability would be very poor for the first month.

And the 7900GT and GTX were not a week or two. There were supply problems up to the 6th week. I know. I was checking because I was actually seriously considering getting the 7900GT. Cards would sell out in a day. That's not a minor availability issue, that's a major. Even with the higher demand over ATI cards it's inexcusable.

If you said the X1950XTX was announced last month then please point me to the news article and not rumor mill stuff because I don't recall ATI having ever said so (though I could easily be wrong). If you're mentioning rumor articles then we might as well say that nVidia has already paper launched the 7950GT and 7900GS since the rumor sites are already quoting a mid Sept release for the former and Aug 30 release for the latter complete with "leaked" slides. AFAIK the only time where ATI has specifically mentioned a date and not one from that was quoted from a 3rd party was from the Dailytech article. And I agree the X1800XT was seriously pushing it and I wouldn't disagree with it being a paper launch. I think it was a little over 5 weeks from announcement to actual availability.

I just think this witch hunt over paper launches is initiated by folks who lean towards the green side (nothing wrong with being pro-nVidia). The problem is the majority of the folks who are damning ATI for "paper launches" neglects to mention the 7300GS (or was it GT) that was announced nearly a month before it would be available in N.America or the poor product availability of more than one nVidia card. I see it as judging by double standards. Not to mention most of those criticising ATI's marketing decisions (and yes, lifting the NDA 3 weeks before actual availability is a marketing decission) are highly highly unlikely to buy the cards in question. The age old question becomes, if you're not going to buy it, why the heck do you care?

And Nelsieus, TY for addressing points in a mature fashion. I'm sure we'll still disagree on some points but at least I'm not getting the brown nosing fanboy vibe I get from a few others I could mention. Off to bed.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: redbox

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Im talking about, they havent paper launched anything. At least not yet. All of this information we have, is not direct, its rumor as of now. We're getting it second hand, or worse.

quoted from the dailytech article
The email sent out from ATI is as follows:

Please Note: ATI has pulled the Launch Date for the Radeon 1950 Series back to Aug 23rd, as originally scheduled. We will anounce on the 23rd and press embargo will be lifted. We will state that broad availability (retail on-shelf) will be mid-Sept. Apologies for any confusion, thank you-

Guess you missed the part that says Email sent out from ATI. I would consider that to be pretty direct. Paper launch = not having part in retail channel when launched. This will be a paper launch anyway you slice it. Why even talk about a card if you can't sell it? The performance info is nice to have yes, but so is price and you can't have that if the card isn't selling in retail channels.

They aren't claiming to have anything available to the consumer on the 23rd. They are only allowing sites with preview/refrence cards to post their reviews/benchmarks. They actually are telling you the release to be mid-sept. That is not a paper launch.

Paper launch is this...Announce a card, post release, have a very limited number of cards available in retail, prices inflate because of low availability or no availability. ATI is not doing this. It's common to send out refrence cards and such prior to the actual retail availability.

 

[Sable]

So very very sad. And I'm not talking about this "paper launch".

 

[Sable]

Originally posted by: n7
WTF are you guys whining about? :roll:

ATi is basically allowing a performance preview a couple weeks early.

Same as Intel did with Core 2 Duo, except that Intel still barely has any 4 MB CPUs available.

This isn't a paper launch, it's a preview.

I too prefer a preview rather than having to wait till the release date to find out performance, or having to rely on rumored benches that would normally leak w/o an official preview like this.

Exactly. I can see this actually happening more in the future after the success intel had with it. After the previewed benchies of Conroe I'm gonnna bet quite a few people delayed there purchase of X2's just to wait for it.

Same strategy from ATI here. This method allows them to build up stock for when they do finally release X1950 AND it makes people think twice before purchasing a GX2.

It's a bit of a cheat of course but as long as the cards appear in volume on the date they've stated then I'd hardly call it paper launch.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Crusader
But this is a video card forum, and its more appropriate to be concerned with this, than to be unconcerned.

concerned? how? the only one's i've seen "concerned" are nvidia fanboys looking for a reason to bitch about ati. this is hardly a reason.

Originally posted by: Crusader
If you arent into video cards, and would rather downplay this for brand loyalty/political reasons, then it probably isnt the place for you.

why would someone with no interest in video cards be here?

what loaylty? there's nothing here to downplay.

Originally posted by: Crusader
Paper launches are not good. The man is right. Shame on ATI if they do it again.

paper launches are not good, but this is hardly the case here.

 

[fatdragondzc]

ehh.. thats how they do it. Release a few, lucky rich people get it. then they make us want it even more. playing with our desires, so nice of them =)

 

[Keysplayr]

Looks like it's a paper launch after all. Text

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Looks like it's a paper launch after all. Text

No, it's not. ATI has already stated that mass availability will occur on September 14th, NOT August 23rd.

 

[Keysplayr]

Whatever you say.

"The chaps in Canada wanted to postpone the launch for three weeks to ensure there was enough supply to do a real hard launch. But since the print magazines have already gone to bed with their reviews of the hardware, at this point there is no turning back."

Either way, it's no big deal. Paper launch or not. Don't see why some are getting their panties in a bunch. It's not like any of you are incapable of gaming until this card becomes available.
This has been done forever and a day. Nothing new here.

 

[robkas]

UGH, i have to wait another MONTH to buy this card!

at least i get to see reviews to decide if i still want it!

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: robkas
UGH, i have to wait another MONTH to buy this card!

at least i get to see reviews to decide if i still want it!

Exactly. I mean, what are you using right now to game with? Unless its a real POS, won't it get you through a month of tough times?

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: dug777

Originally posted by: apoppin
only nVidia fans are annoyed

do you really want one?

:laugh:

So true, it's just like Rollo in the old days

Nightmare in particular has been popping up in every thread on the 1950 to tell anyone how he's soooo disappointed about Ati & is about to order a GX2, just do it already you prat

NO one - who even wants one - is annoyed. . . not a SINGLE ATi fan or anyone who is considering BUYING these cards is the slightest BIT annoyed - disappointed, maybe.

it's just the nVidiots who are making a big deal of it.

So what.

if you are SERIOUS about buying one, then - maybe - just maybe, you have a "right" to complain.

OTOH if you have ZERO intererest in actually BUYING one, you might as well STFU. . . . you are just looking for another opportunity to put down ati and extoll your marvelous company that NEVER paperlaunches ANYthing.
:thumbsdown:

we know where you are coming from
and it doesn't work . . . only Rollo could 'pull this one off' . . . you guys lack his 'skills'

BEST POST IMO

The whining is a pathetic fanboy knee-jerk reaction

 

[DAPUNISHER]

*yawn* Narf!

 

[Paratus]

I must say Crusader/Wreckage etc are completely right. NV's 'Mushroom' launches are much superior (keep you in the dark, feed you on sh!t) to ATI paper launches..

What moron would want to make an informed decision before a card was available?

Now someone pass me the kool-aid & my free card.


posted via Palm Life Drive

 

[hemmy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Im talking about, they havent paper launched anything. At least not yet. All of this information we have, is not direct, its rumor as of now. We're getting it second hand, or worse.

And I dont see whats the problem with paper launches. Ive said many times in the past, I like them. Lets take a look at three different hypothetical scenarios;

1. You can get reviews of a video card on August 23rd, with cards available in mass quanity on Sept 15th, at or around MSRP.
2. You can get reviews of a video card on August 23rd, with a trickle of cards available well over MSRP because they are in short supply on August 23rd.
3. You can get reviews of a video card on Sept 15th, with cards available in mass quanity on the same day, at or around MSRP.


The choice for me is, #1. I get the info I need to make a decision, and have time to plan ahead. Sell my card, save cash, etc. The sooner I have the information, the better it is to me. Too many times, #2 has been the option, and thats my least favorite. Its happend to NV the past few launches, and ATi in the past. Screw that price gouging route. I do not pay over MSRP for a card, they can keep it with those markups.

If ATi was to keep this rumored launch date of August 23rd, and didnt have the cards available for a widely available launch, and prices were gouged, you'd be complaining about that too. So which way to you want it? Make up your mind, and stick to it. Its a no win with some of you.

actually only the 7800gtx 512, considering i could find plenty of 7900s available although every screamed paper launch i could find 5+ sites with them instock at all times, for MSRP

7950gx2 available at launch (not the date OEMs started selling quad SLI)

ATI has had good launches on the X1900XT/XTX and GT i think, the X1800GTO was only about a week or so late

Both companies are doing much better IMO

 

[robkas]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: robkas
UGH, i have to wait another MONTH to buy this card!

at least i get to see reviews to decide if i still want it!

Exactly. I mean, what are you using right now to game with? Unless its a real POS, won't it get you through a month of tough times?

it is a pci 128mb fxt5500.....and i downgraded from a 7900gt which i had to RMA

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Whatever you say.

"The chaps in Canada wanted to postpone the launch for three weeks to ensure there was enough supply to do a real hard launch. But since the print magazines have already gone to bed with their reviews of the hardware, at this point there is no turning back."

Either way, it's no big deal. Paper launch or not. Don't see why some are getting their panties in a bunch. It's not like any of you are incapable of gaming until this card becomes available.
This has been done forever and a day. Nothing new here.

It's not about the fact that I won't be able to buy it, it's the fact that they're lying. The card is "launching" at the 23rd (as stated by ATi), yet cards will be out around mid-sep. That's just annoying, and I wouldn't mind if they said "preview" or that they're delaying the launch to mid-september. I'd say ok, fine with me.

And to you guys that think I'm an nVidia fanboy, stfu. You can search my old posts and see for yourselves. To the guy that says that I'm like Rollo, lol.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Whatever you say.

"The chaps in Canada wanted to postpone the launch for three weeks to ensure there was enough supply to do a real hard launch. But since the print magazines have already gone to bed with their reviews of the hardware, at this point there is no turning back."

What's funny is they used that same BS line before. Some sites actually had reviews up and ATI had them pull it. It's all just a cheap marketing ploy.

To the people saying that we should not complain about this, take your own advice and don't complain about this thread. Yeah, that's what I thought. :laugh:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Whatever you say.

"The chaps in Canada wanted to postpone the launch for three weeks to ensure there was enough supply to do a real hard launch. But since the print magazines have already gone to bed with their reviews of the hardware, at this point there is no turning back."

Either way, it's no big deal. Paper launch or not. Don't see why some are getting their panties in a bunch. It's not like any of you are incapable of gaming until this card becomes available.
This has been done forever and a day. Nothing new here.

It's not about the fact that I won't be able to buy it, it's the fact that they're lying. The card is "launching" at the 23rd (as stated by ATi), yet cards will be out around mid-sep. That's just annoying, and I wouldn't mind if they said "preview" or that they're delaying the launch to mid-september. I'd say ok, fine with me.

And to you guys that think I'm an nVidia fanboy, stfu. You can search my old posts and see for yourselves. To the guy that says that I'm like Rollo, lol.

so . . . again who cares?

just the nvidots
:Q
[it is gonna be hard not captalizing the 'v' . . . but i guess it's nvidia's new logo]

no, you are NOT like Rollo . .. . you lack most of his debating skills.
:thumbsdown:

EDIT: i just looked at your title again . . . Am I the only one annoyed by this?

it is a lie . . . you are overjoyed that the company you despise might be "late" with a product.
:disgust:

 

[ElFenix]

as long as it's not vaporware who cares?

 

[Nelsieus]

Originally posted by: akugami
In fact, nVidia has also set announced products such as the 7300 that would not be released until nearly a month later after denouncing ATI of paper launching.

This is something Fuad came to the conclusion of, yet I fail to understand the logic implied. nVidia clearly stated that the Geforce 7300GT would be released to Asia first - they never launched the GPU to North America at that time. So it's hard to do a paper-launch when you haven't even released the card (to that particular region). But it gave Fuad something to rant about, and he couldn't pass up the oppurunity when he saw it was nVidia.

Originally posted by: akugamiSorry but I don't disagree with what ATI is doing. It is not different from what Intel does, it is no different from what AMD does, it is no different than what MS does.

That's because Intel, AMD, and MS don't release a product every 4-6 months. Building up hype for their products is more important, because it only happens once every year / few years.

Originally posted by: akugamiAs I have said, so long as the time of official unveiling and the actual availibility date are within 2-4 weeks, I have no problems with it whether it be from ATI or nVidia.

1 week is fine, at most. But 3...that's a little more significant.

Originally posted by: akugamiAnd btw, even though nVidia outsells ATI cards, ATI has roughly 40-45% of the discrete GPU market so even if nVidia is selling 55-60% of the cards, there should be no reason for such low availability.

What are you referring to? Aside from the minor mis-hap during G71's launch, and Geforce 7800GTX 512MB, nVidia has not had any significant supply issues. You also need to factor in that nVidia is selling twice as many GPUs to more customers than ATI is (with SLI). So even though their overall marketshare is similiar to ATI's, they are still selling significantly more (record highs) because of SLI.

Originally posted by: akugamiAnd the 7900GT and GTX were not a week or two. There were supply problems up to the 6th week. I know. I was checking because I was actually seriously considering getting the 7900GT. Cards would sell out in a day. That's not a minor availability issue, that's a major. Even with the higher demand over ATI cards it's inexcusable.

I found Geforce 7900GT and Geforce 7900GTX GPUs very easily at Newegg just a few weeks after launch. I'm not sure where you were shopping.

Originally posted by: akugamiIf you said the X1950XTX was announced last month then please point me to the news article and not rumor mill stuff because I don't recall ATI having ever said so (though I could easily be wrong).

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3446
"This week ATI sent an advisory out to its OEM partners announcing the details of the new Radeon X1950 and X1900 graphic cards. "

Nobody complained about this, btw (atleast I didn't). I'm just pointing it out. Because nVidia has done it too with the Geforce 7900GS and Geforce 7950GT - the only difference is that it won't take two months until we see them available. In other words, what it has become for Radeon x1950XTX is:

July - Announce
August - Launch
September - Widespread Availability
:roll:

But I suppose it could just as easily happen to Geforce 7900GS and 7950GT; we'll have to wait an see. If so, you'll see me right back here complaining.

Originally posted by: akugamiI just think this witch hunt over paper launches is initiated by folks who lean towards the green side (nothing wrong with being pro-nVidia). The problem is the majority of the folks who are damning ATI for "paper launches" neglects to mention the 7300GS (or was it GT) that was announced nearly a month before it would be available in N.America or the poor product availability of more than one nVidia card. I see it as judging by double standards. Not to mention most of those criticising ATI's marketing decisions (and yes, lifting the NDA 3 weeks before actual availability is a marketing decission) are highly highly unlikely to buy the cards in question. The age old question becomes, if you're not going to buy it, why the heck do you care?

Well you can't say that about me because you don't even know if I condemned nVidia for those launches or not (I wasn't even a member here then). Although, like I just pointed out, the Geforce 7300GT wasn't even released to the US, so it's kind of hard to expect availability. You need to realize Fuad usually bases his claims on mis-information, so it should just be presumed he's incompetant. Other than that, you've given me Geforce 7800GTX 512MB during the end of last year (which had horrible availability), and the Geforce 7900GT/GTX which you say lasted 6 weeks (which I find very hard to fathme, unless of course you were shopping at Best Buy).

Also, don't forget about the Radeon x1800GTO and x1900GT. It took weeks before Radeon x1800GTO became available after it was "launched." Same with the Radeon x1900GT, only to a lesser extent. And hmm, is it just me, or does the Radeon x1900XTX seem to be absent from Newegg?