The Florida Supremes wont have any effect on a revote, it will go to the Federal Supremes which should turn it down in a heart beat. Not only is there zero PROOF of people misvoting, it would make the election meaningless. Either way whoever is elected is SOL. Neither one will have a second term. The ballot was not illegal, it was made up by a DEMOCRAT. Oh for Christs sake, what if Bush was the 3rd spot? Oh thats right, all you dems would be saying STFU. LOL. Not like repubs could be stupid enough to even think they misvoted.
Format C:,
LOL! No big deal. I've actually watched a few episodes of Matlock. :Q
Tripleshot,
Either way you slice it, Ds will look bad to some people, Rs will look bad to some people, third-parties will look better to some people (bwuahahahah!), conspicary theories will resonate from Jesse J.'s mouth until the Second Coming, people in FL will be upset, the ballot-designer(s) in Palm Beach Country will not likely be asked to design another, and the green aliens from the Simpsons cartoon will be laughing their asses off at us foolish amercians (again).
LOL! No big deal. I've actually watched a few episodes of Matlock. :Q
Tripleshot,
Either way you slice it, Ds will look bad to some people, Rs will look bad to some people, third-parties will look better to some people (bwuahahahah!), conspicary theories will resonate from Jesse J.'s mouth until the Second Coming, people in FL will be upset, the ballot-designer(s) in Palm Beach Country will not likely be asked to design another, and the green aliens from the Simpsons cartoon will be laughing their asses off at us foolish amercians (again).
<<
Millenium: Whats wrong with his liberal ideas? The fact that most americans agree with 'em?
You mean 49 %.
<< Either way you slice it, Ds will look bad to some people, Rs will look bad to some people, third-parties will look better to some people (bwuahahahah!), conspicary theories will resonate from Jesse J.'s mouth until the Second Coming, people in FL will be upset, the ballot-designer(s) in Palm Beach Country will not likely be asked to design another, and the green aliens from the Simpsons cartoon will be laughing their asses off at us foolish amercians (again).
>>
Best said of any statement in any of these political threads.
Rob
Okay TS, I havn't seen one of these machines or whatever so its a little hard for me to visualize but I'm trying. In any case, if the ballot could be mis-aligned for Gore voters it could also be mis-aligned for Bush, Buchannon, Nader, et al. correct?
<< ...stating there dismay that they may have accidently voted for Buchanan because he was the 2nd hole to punch and Gore was the 3rd hole. You recall punching the 2nd hole.What can you do? nothing. Its in the box and you have left the polling center. >>
If this is the complaint then I'm sorry, but I can't support a re-vote based on this scenario (assuming the pictures that I've seen of the ballot are correct) because there can be no doubt which hole to punch (2nd or 3rd) for any of the candidates. Had there been no arrows pointing to the correct hole(s) to punch then I could go along with the argument.
I wholeheartedly agree that no-one should have their vote go to a candidate they didn't support, BUT, if the only solution to this dilemma is a re-vote then tell me how does anyone assure fairness in that? How do you know 100% for sure that some people won't change the way they originally voted? You can't. Someone who voted for Gore may decide that they now want Bush or someone who originally voted for Bush may now switch to Gore, or either may decide to vote for one of the third party candidates, or vice versa. Suppose they are allowed to re-vote and the total amount of votes cast for Bush goes up or goes down, then what? The original complaint had nothing to do with Bush supporters accidentally voting for the wrong candidate, but if the re-vote totals saw Bush's support decrease then wouldn't the Bush campaign then have a legitimate complaint, as well as Gore's campaign if Bush's total goes up? Where and when does it all end?
While I don't think anyone should be denied the opportunity to vote for whomever they wish, we are not now dealing with the same situation as when their first vote was cast. Should everyone now be allowed the benefit of hind site and reconsideration? If so, then shouldn't we all have the same? Its a huge bucket of worms with no solution that will ever be considered fair by everyone involved, so what do you do? At this point, there will be no satisfying everyone that the election was fair so I think the best way of handling this situation is to recount all the votes, wait 10 days for the absentee ballots to all come in, tally those up and award the state to whomever has the most votes and be done with it and move on. Re-voting, whether in one county, state-wide, or nationally shouldn't even be an option for consideration. That would be a total nightmare only leading to more accusations.
<< ...stating there dismay that they may have accidently voted for Buchanan because he was the 2nd hole to punch and Gore was the 3rd hole. You recall punching the 2nd hole.What can you do? nothing. Its in the box and you have left the polling center. >>
If this is the complaint then I'm sorry, but I can't support a re-vote based on this scenario (assuming the pictures that I've seen of the ballot are correct) because there can be no doubt which hole to punch (2nd or 3rd) for any of the candidates. Had there been no arrows pointing to the correct hole(s) to punch then I could go along with the argument.
I wholeheartedly agree that no-one should have their vote go to a candidate they didn't support, BUT, if the only solution to this dilemma is a re-vote then tell me how does anyone assure fairness in that? How do you know 100% for sure that some people won't change the way they originally voted? You can't. Someone who voted for Gore may decide that they now want Bush or someone who originally voted for Bush may now switch to Gore, or either may decide to vote for one of the third party candidates, or vice versa. Suppose they are allowed to re-vote and the total amount of votes cast for Bush goes up or goes down, then what? The original complaint had nothing to do with Bush supporters accidentally voting for the wrong candidate, but if the re-vote totals saw Bush's support decrease then wouldn't the Bush campaign then have a legitimate complaint, as well as Gore's campaign if Bush's total goes up? Where and when does it all end?
While I don't think anyone should be denied the opportunity to vote for whomever they wish, we are not now dealing with the same situation as when their first vote was cast. Should everyone now be allowed the benefit of hind site and reconsideration? If so, then shouldn't we all have the same? Its a huge bucket of worms with no solution that will ever be considered fair by everyone involved, so what do you do? At this point, there will be no satisfying everyone that the election was fair so I think the best way of handling this situation is to recount all the votes, wait 10 days for the absentee ballots to all come in, tally those up and award the state to whomever has the most votes and be done with it and move on. Re-voting, whether in one county, state-wide, or nationally shouldn't even be an option for consideration. That would be a total nightmare only leading to more accusations.
FormatC
This is my 4th attempt to reply.If this fails ,i call zuni next:|
Correct to the first paragraph.
To the rest of your post,I agree it is a difficult sollution. I just reported what has happened and what a judge in Florida must now contimplate. It aint my call. What ever they do we will live by. My emotional responses were all spent last night. I'm back to enjoying life now. I have no beef with anyone.
(I would have cut and pasted your paragrphs and answered each,but the refresh kept blowing away what I put in there. Sorry for the short reply)
This is my 4th attempt to reply.If this fails ,i call zuni next:|
Correct to the first paragraph.
To the rest of your post,I agree it is a difficult sollution. I just reported what has happened and what a judge in Florida must now contimplate. It aint my call. What ever they do we will live by. My emotional responses were all spent last night. I'm back to enjoying life now. I have no beef with anyone.
(I would have cut and pasted your paragrphs and answered each,but the refresh kept blowing away what I put in there. Sorry for the short reply)
<Point2 When you are in the voting booth,having waited in line for a long time and things are pressing on your mind like picking up the kids at school or stopping at the dry cleaners before they close,you encounter those opsticles as I pointed out in the above or you dont. No matter.You punch the cards for your candidate and reading down from the left page,you see Bush at the top and Gore below him. You punch for Gore in the second hole and then turn the page.You continue gleefully with the rest of your voting and then remove the punchcard,cary it to the box,deposit it and pick up your "I voted Today" sticker and head for your car in the parking lot. When you get to you're car,you overhear a load discusion from other voters gathered at the back of the car next to you,stating there dismay that they may have accidently voted for Buchanan because he was the 2nd hole to punch and Gore was the 3rd hole. You recall punching the 2nd hole.What can you do? nothing. Its in the box and you have left the polling center>
For Goodness sake, you voting for the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and you are rushing through this? You are distracted by other things like picking up your kids?
"Let's see, go shopping - 1 hour, drop off the laundry - 30 mins, vote for the most powerfull man in the world ummm... 1 minute, and pick up the kids, yeah I can do all that by the time Oprah comes on."
I said this at work earlier, I dont think a judge will do anything about this because as with any legal document, it is your responsibility to read and understand it. there are people aat the polls to assist, if you merely ask. There is no time limit at the voting booth. There is nothing wrong with ballot. If you say all 3400 Buchannon votes are wrong, then what about the other 400,000+ ballots cast there? A fair judge is going to look at that and say it stands.
For Goodness sake, you voting for the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and you are rushing through this? You are distracted by other things like picking up your kids?
"Let's see, go shopping - 1 hour, drop off the laundry - 30 mins, vote for the most powerfull man in the world ummm... 1 minute, and pick up the kids, yeah I can do all that by the time Oprah comes on."
I said this at work earlier, I dont think a judge will do anything about this because as with any legal document, it is your responsibility to read and understand it. there are people aat the polls to assist, if you merely ask. There is no time limit at the voting booth. There is nothing wrong with ballot. If you say all 3400 Buchannon votes are wrong, then what about the other 400,000+ ballots cast there? A fair judge is going to look at that and say it stands.
I live in Palm Beach County, Floriduh. I voted in Palm Beach County, Floriduh. I had ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFICULTY voting for my candidate using the official ballot here in Palm Beach County.
I can only surmise that anyone who couldn't properly vote using this ballot should not be issued a driver license, the operation of a motor vehicle to take your person to the polls to vote requiring much more skill and intellectual prowess than voting with this ballot.
Just because you're brain dead doesn't mean Earth's rotation should be stopped just because you don't know which way is up.
Sheesh.
I can only surmise that anyone who couldn't properly vote using this ballot should not be issued a driver license, the operation of a motor vehicle to take your person to the polls to vote requiring much more skill and intellectual prowess than voting with this ballot.
Just because you're brain dead doesn't mean Earth's rotation should be stopped just because you don't know which way is up.
Sheesh.
TS...
Zuni who?
<< My emotional responses were all spent last night >>
Links please. I missed 'em.
Zuni who?
<< My emotional responses were all spent last night >>
Links please. I missed 'em.
CNN.com Headline:::
Congressman Robert Wexler, a Florida Democrat, says 19,000 votes in Palm Beach County were disqualified because of a faulty ballot. Details soon.
WTF?
Congressman Robert Wexler, a Florida Democrat, says 19,000 votes in Palm Beach County were disqualified because of a faulty ballot. Details soon.
WTF?
SuperTool,
Geez. No matter the outcome, both parties will be acused of election fixing. This just doesn't look good. Let's just hope the rule of law is clear and everybody has the decency to abide by it now, during the time the decision is being made in court (if it goes that far), and afterward.
Geez. No matter the outcome, both parties will be acused of election fixing. This just doesn't look good. Let's just hope the rule of law is clear and everybody has the decency to abide by it now, during the time the decision is being made in court (if it goes that far), and afterward.
Wexler is agrandstanding ambulance chaser.
Yeah, it is being claimed that 19,000 ballots were disqualified for double voting for President: punched once, punched again because you they didn't know if they did it right the first time.
Whether or not 19,000 is an accurate number, every single one of them could have asked for another ballot and started over. Few did: further evidence they don't know how to breathe air on their own.
Yeah, it is being claimed that 19,000 ballots were disqualified for double voting for President: punched once, punched again because you they didn't know if they did it right the first time.
Whether or not 19,000 is an accurate number, every single one of them could have asked for another ballot and started over. Few did: further evidence they don't know how to breathe air on their own.
IF 19,000 votes in Palm Beach County have been disqualified due to voting for more than one candidate, does the total votes for each candidate as shown on the news websites reflect this or not? I would be very curious to know if all of those 19,000 were double marked as Gore and Buchanon or what. If so, wouldn't that mean that Gore's state total drops by 19,000 and Bush's stays the same? If that's the case we ain't heard or seen nothing yet. Just wait till that hits.
Thanks Pennstate, was just reading that for myself. This is unreal, totally unreal. Somebody wake me up and tell me who finally wins, I'm tired of the ride and I'm stepping off now.
I can't beleive these people can actually claim that they didn'y know who they were voting for. grab a frickin clue you numbskulls,
FOLLOW THE LITTLE ARROW... If you two dumb to figure it out then to bad.
FOLLOW THE LITTLE ARROW... If you two dumb to figure it out then to bad.
Here's an interesting thought. The election hasn't yet occured. The electoral college will go in on the second wednesday of december and cast florida's 25 electoral votes. They are not bound to vote the same way that the people did, and they can take into account the allegations that some people may have accidentally mis-voted. I have no preference as to who is president, but it seems to me that nationwide the voters prefer Gore. Another option for florida would be to cast thier electoral votes 50/50, which would also give the election to Gore.
In any case, there is no cause for discussion until the REAL election takes place.
In any case, there is no cause for discussion until the REAL election takes place.
"Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore, a Democrat, insisted any confusion was unintentional and defended the layout of the cluttered ballots as necessary to get all the presidential candidates on facing pages while making the type large enough for voters to read."
Ah Etech, if that ballot was turned side on (so it was long & narrow instead of wide & short), there'd be enough room for all the candidates to be in one column, with all the tick boxes/punch holes being in another column next to them on the right, even with the same font & all.
You have to admit its a stupid designed ballet paper. Afterall common sense dictates that a ballet paper should just have 2 columns, one with the names of the candidates & another column next to the candidate names with a tick box for each candidate.
The fact is that ballot form was obviously designed by a fukwit. Who just made it overly complex because he was a wanker. Things like that don't work unless they are simple.
Ah Etech, if that ballot was turned side on (so it was long & narrow instead of wide & short), there'd be enough room for all the candidates to be in one column, with all the tick boxes/punch holes being in another column next to them on the right, even with the same font & all.
You have to admit its a stupid designed ballet paper. Afterall common sense dictates that a ballet paper should just have 2 columns, one with the names of the candidates & another column next to the candidate names with a tick box for each candidate.
The fact is that ballot form was obviously designed by a fukwit. Who just made it overly complex because he was a wanker. Things like that don't work unless they are simple.
UG nailed it.
I've actually looked at the ballot in question and you have to be a blithering idiot to miscast your vote. There are arrows pointing to which circle represents a vote for each candidate. Are there really 3,000 morons in Palm Beach?
We all have a certain amount of responsibility when it comes to actually voting. One of them being actually looking at the ballot before voting, and another being asking for help if our comprehension skills are not up to par. There won't be a "do over" because of this. The ballot was approved by 3 different people, all democrats. By Florida law any ambiguity or challenges on the form factor of a ballot are to be made before the election.
I've actually looked at the ballot in question and you have to be a blithering idiot to miscast your vote. There are arrows pointing to which circle represents a vote for each candidate. Are there really 3,000 morons in Palm Beach?
We all have a certain amount of responsibility when it comes to actually voting. One of them being actually looking at the ballot before voting, and another being asking for help if our comprehension skills are not up to par. There won't be a "do over" because of this. The ballot was approved by 3 different people, all democrats. By Florida law any ambiguity or challenges on the form factor of a ballot are to be made before the election.
Ah, Tiger, the average person is a blithering idiot, thay why ballots papers have to be designed for the lowest common denominator to work, & that means following the KISS principle of 'keep it simple stupid'.
I just saw the actual ballot (not a diagram of one, but the actual ones used) on MSNBC and I can tell you that it even seemed a tad confusing to me. You definitly had to carefully look at it before you could see the correct hole. I couldn't even imagine what it must have been like for an elderly person.
I know I'm gonna get flamed by all of the republicans in here with "you must be dumb!" but I seriously don't care. I am just looking for a fair vote.
For everyone who says "Well they have no case because it was sent out before the vote was done!" Have you actually compared the sample and the one used? They are similar, but there is a big difference in the spacing.
My 2¢!
btw: The electoral college is a archaic system that was brought about because the fathers of our country were afraid that the populous wouldn't know enough about the candidates to make a good choice. To combat this they started the electoral college system thinking that community/area leaders would know more about the actual candidates than the people. The electoral college use has come to end in this information age with a half dozen 24/7 news channels, newspapers, computer, pdas, etc. to inform the people about their choices.
I know I'm gonna get flamed by all of the republicans in here with "you must be dumb!" but I seriously don't care. I am just looking for a fair vote.
For everyone who says "Well they have no case because it was sent out before the vote was done!" Have you actually compared the sample and the one used? They are similar, but there is a big difference in the spacing.
My 2¢!
btw: The electoral college is a archaic system that was brought about because the fathers of our country were afraid that the populous wouldn't know enough about the candidates to make a good choice. To combat this they started the electoral college system thinking that community/area leaders would know more about the actual candidates than the people. The electoral college use has come to end in this information age with a half dozen 24/7 news channels, newspapers, computer, pdas, etc. to inform the people about their choices.
Sorry Jugernot, but to me it seems like the little arrow pointed right at the punch hole. Like was said a few posts up. If you go in there and rush through it with out taking your time and reading everything then that's their own fault. It isn't like it's a timed thing, take a minute to reveiw the stupid ballot.
The way I see it is they just didn't pay that good of attention, end of story...
<edit> spelled your name wrong.<edit>
The way I see it is they just didn't pay that good of attention, end of story...
<edit> spelled your name wrong.
<edit>Ok guys, I've got a mission for you! Ok, this is what you do. Go get an elderly person and bring them into your tv room (well, the room with a tv in it). Ok, now give them a remote control (that they have never seen or used before). Ask them to turn the tv power ON.
This is your mission. When you're done come back and report the results here. How many tries did it them to turn the TV on?
btw: This wasn't meant to demean anyone especially our countries elderly! This was meant to point out that our older americans eye sight and hand eye coordinate isn't exactly what most of the people here that are posing is. You guys might call these people "..DUMB.." or "..morons..", but lets you see in 70 years use a small paper clip type object through a single hole on a form with name that are not lined up with the holes. Maybe then you will understand what it is like for these voters that are finding that their votes were not posted for the correct candidate. For heavens sakes, they voted for Buchanan. That alone, should allow them to change their vote.
I'll be willing to bet anyone here if Gore wins the recount that the republicans will be begging to see those dumb people's votes that weren't counted correctly. It all depends on you current position in the event.
This is your mission. When you're done come back and report the results here. How many tries did it them to turn the TV on?
btw: This wasn't meant to demean anyone especially our countries elderly! This was meant to point out that our older americans eye sight and hand eye coordinate isn't exactly what most of the people here that are posing is. You guys might call these people "..DUMB.." or "..morons..", but lets you see in 70 years use a small paper clip type object through a single hole on a form with name that are not lined up with the holes. Maybe then you will understand what it is like for these voters that are finding that their votes were not posted for the correct candidate. For heavens sakes, they voted for Buchanan. That alone, should allow them to change their vote.
I'll be willing to bet anyone here if Gore wins the recount that the republicans will be begging to see those dumb people's votes that weren't counted correctly. It all depends on you current position in the event.
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