All Florida Counties that used the butterly ballot should re-vote

[AndrewR]

<< The Florida Courts will decide whether this was a paper ballot or a machine ballot and whose name was where. >>



I really don't think any argument can be made to call that ballot a written one as opposed to electromechanical. That's like saying we need a judge to declare the sky blue. Sure, they could do that, but it doesn't make it less self-evident.

 

[desy]

1 This isn't a game their is significantly more at stake so please no sport analagies. But if you must ever heard of a penalty or instant replay? basically do-overs.
2 If the number of spoiled ballots is significantly higher than anywhere else there is an obvious problem you may say its only 5% but gee isn't that enough to change the outcome of a whole election?
apparantly so.
3 After watching a few news programs last night I don't think they should do it again. I think the person who casts the electoral vote should ascertain it was a tie, that there was significant evidence of a defective balloting system and cast Floridas vot to the populus leader.

That would be great, just think if you were that person, you would be creating history and your name would forever be carried in the history books, debated for decades, and show what kind of power the electoral college can wield good or bad and have that debated for centuries!!

 

[chess9]

Tiger:

I'm sorry but would you like to try that math problem again? Since about one-third of the voters voted for Bush, whose name and punch hole was at the top, they shouldn't have had a problem. That leaves two-thirds of the voters, of whom about 60% voted for Gore. Since they had a 50/50 chance of voting for Gore or Buchanan, you must reduce that 60% number by 30%. Thus, out of 35% of the vote, about 5% was defective. That is a high number.

I've given this just a cursory number analysis. My analysis is, I am sure, not very accurate. But yours is DEAD WRONG!

Perhaps one of the math guys will give it a go.

NB: I learned long ago that on this forum you post math answers at your peril.

 

[Tiger]

My sports anology was posted in jest. Oh, by the way, how many &quot;do overs&quot; have there been after the game is over?

Your point about the spoiled ballots being enough to change the outcome of the election is immaterial, unless that's what this is about, sour grapes.

The people who cast the electoral votes can't use the national popular vote to decide Florida's electoral vote. We don't have federal elections in this country. Each state is responsible for it's elections.

 

[Tiger]

Your right Chess9, it is just math.

Of the votes cast in palm beach county last tuesday some 19,000 were spoiled because of double punches. Divide that number by the total number of votes cast in that county and you get about 4%. I'd be willing to bet that number isn't far off from the 96 election where 15,000 votes were spoiled because of double punching.

 

[chess9]

Tiger:

Right, but the same ballot arrangement was used in '96, except then we had a Dem for governor and the Dem name was at top. Too bad the Republicans found out too late. They could have complained in '96.

All of this underscores the archaic manner in which voting occurs. This isn't about Gore or Bush, or shouldn't be, it's about the integrity of our most sacred constitutional right.

 

[fdiskboy]

Anyone like to place bets? Right now the odds to be next President are:

Bush 1-5
Gore 100-1

Anyone?

 

[desy]

Doesn't sound like the game is over though?
But, yes it is which is why I changed my opinion from yesterday, potential revotes are not do-able for many reasons.
I was just speculating the electoral voter could in fact not choose the mathematical winner and use the populus vote as a justification if they so chose, it has happened in the past. It would be interesting to see a little history repeat itself as it is this is going to be disected, anyalyzed and pulled apart.

 

[fdiskboy]

I think I can safely say that Electoral College voters are chosen from the MOST partisan ranks of both parties for PRECISELY this reason. I'd be very surprised to see someone go against their STATE's wishes just because some OTHER STATE (with more people granted) voted for the other guy.

Remember all the absentee ballots in California -- over 1,000,000!!! They are still being counted. I think its early to call it over in Florida OR in the popular vote across the country.

Talk about Rush to Judgement! Daley does it in one sentence and decries anyone else who would dare it in another. This from the biggest election crook in history's son. Ah, the irony.

 

[Tiger]

Chess9,

We can agree on one thing.
This antiquated paper and mechanical machine system we use has got to go.
I would propose going to an ATM machine type of format where every eligible voter is issued a card and PIN number. It would eliminate spoiled ballots because the logic in the machine wouldn't allow multiple selections. It would eliminate fraud due to the PIN number. Card and PIN don't match? You don't vote.

Of course this system wouldn't relieve we voters of our responisbilty of keeping track of the card and memorizing the PIN, or of paying attention to what we are doing in the booth. If my 90 year old grandmother can do it anybody can.

 

[Underclocked]

The game is OVER. It's just that all the scoring (counting) is not yet complete. Florida is not the only state where the margin is very thin and the results could still shift.
A re-vote in any one isolated part of the country at this point would be a total farce. Why don't you allow us here in DADE Co. Missouri to re-vote and solely choose the next president? Some of our elderly and others were probably confused by the ballot here as well.
Do you think all the media hype, outside influences at work in Florida, or the fact that the residents there now should know (almost) the full results from the balance of the country would allow a fair second election? Is there any basis in history for such a second vote?
A margin being small should call for careful recount of the votes and that is exactly what Florida is doing. They shouldn't be made to abandon all tradition and law with respect to their election procedures (as the Democrat Party attempted to do in St. Louis, MO) just to achieve the result that many of you apparently desire.
Many of you continue to discuss the popular vote. I wonder if you have been following what is happening to that margin as more of the absentee and uncounted (for various reasons) votes are tallied.

 

[Mill]

<< Since they had a 50/50 chance of voting for Gore or Buchanan, you must reduce that 60% number by 30%. Thus, out of 35% of the vote, about 5% was defective. That is a high number. >>



WTF? Why do you have to reduce 60% by half. What the hell are you talking about? Are you on drugs. They didn't have a 50/50 chance of voting for the wrong guy. That county did have more Buchanan voters than other counties. Palm Beach county has had a history of Buchanan voters. Buchanan said that he feels some made a mistake and voted for him. Ok so what? The democrats were caught on TV in Wisconsin handing out food and cigarettes to homeless people! They then took them to the polls and told them to vote for Gore. In Hatian parts of Florida, Gore workers violated the 50ft rule at more than one precinct. The polling workers called police and had them make the Gore workers leave. It took the cops a good while to get there. The polling workers also said Gore workers were going into the voting booth with voters! It was also said that Gore workers were giving ballots to people that were already punched.

With that said, I do not think either party has done the right thing in this election. They never do. Both always try to cheat. This time there is only allegations against Republicans. They have TV footage of Dems giving food and cigs to homeless people, they have police reports of Gore campaign workers violating election law and intimidating voters. Jesse Jackson has said black voters were intimidated by Republicans. The Hatians are saying it was the Dems! I will believe the Hatians. Jesse Jackson stirs up BS for a living.

 

[cxim]

Cook Co Illinois threw out 120, 000 ballots for the same reason as Palmbeach Co Fl.

Put Cook Co in the revote column.

 

[Format C:]

Chess9.

<< I can only recite what I hear and read, and certainly not the right wing cacaphony you often parrot with ease. >>



I stand by every comment that I make and have ever made because contrary to those you keep espousing they are indeed MY comments and mine alone. They are based on my own research, evaluation and sound reasoning, and logic, not how I &quot;feel&quot; or am told to think by the media, not even by my lawyer. I don't do TV, radio, or the newspaper on a regular basis period. As a matter of fact I havn't turned on a radio more than twice in the past year, I do not have a newspaper subscription nor any magazine subscriptions, and until this election cycle began I wasn't even sure my TV would still work. I do not subscribe to any particular &quot;wing's&quot; political philosophy but rather to my own. If their's happens to agree with mine then thats a point for them as they would be &quot;parroting&quot; me.

<< the voting machine part of the statute is irrelevant because the plaintiffs will argue Palm Beach County was not using a voting machine >>

Regardless of what any plaintiff argues the statutes governing any process are never irrelevant. We're back to The Law thing again dang it. There just doesn't seem to be a way around that does there? Well, other than making sure that you put so called judges behind the bench that ignore the law in order to promote a particular political ideology, which seems to be a favorite tactic of the Left.

<< That has been mentioned by numerous commentators, but I'm not surprised you failed to mention it >>

No, you shouldn't be surprised because I havn't heard anyone say that. I listen to very few of them very seldomly because they are all like you. Furthermore, if anyone did say that then they are wrong, period. Your parrot analogy comes to mind at this point. I think for myself. I don't need someone on TV or the radio to tell me what I should think or believe.

<< No Republican representative, to my knowledge, is arguing otherwise >>

So? First of all, I doubt it would do them any good and secondly why should they? They have the rule of law rather than liberalism to stand on and are probably quite confident that any judge will be able to read the statute, understand it, and apply it accordingly. Unless of course he/she happens to be from Palm Beach County.

<< Since you aren't a lawyer, your interpretation of the statute is worth exactly zilch. >>

Which would be approximately twice what your's is worth.

<< If you know some Jewish voters who voted for Buchanan, please give us their names. I'd like to speak with one. Your argument in this respect, in particular, is absurd >>

Still maintaining that every member of any particular ethnicity thinks alike and acts alike eh? Tsk Tsk. Better be careful with that line of reasoning. You're definitely on shaky ground there.

<< The 1996 election, particularly with the respect to the Reform Party and its many branches, was vastly different from this election, except for the fact the same ballot design was used >>

Howso oh wise one? Did the ballot not include a Republican and Democratic choice for president in addition to the other parties? If this is the case then please elaborate further as this is indeed the first I've heard of such a thing. I had assumed that even in Palm Beach County the '96 election included choices for Bill Clinton and Bob Dole as well as Pat Buchanan. If this is not the case then please enlighten us all. Do tell us what this &quot;vast difference&quot; was. I'm relying on you for this information now because remember, I don't tune in for my daily opinion from the &quot;commentators&quot;.

<< The design is intrinsically flawed, i.e. the flaw is not readily discernable by simply viewing the ballot without using the associated punch board >>

I would posit that since more than 95 percent of those wishing to vote for Gore were able to use this ballot to do so without voting for Buchanan that the &quot;flaw&quot; is not with the ballot but with those making use of it.

<< From what I've been told of the Florida Supreme Court-all of whom are Democrats-they are liberal and would probably order a re-vote >>

If they are indeed as you describe them that certainly wouldn't surprise me. *See previous comments concerning liberals and judges.

<< If I haven't responded to your other comments, it is because they are either boring ad hominem, or stupid. >>

Or perhaps because your &quot;commentators&quot; havn't addressed them yet.

 

[ThundercatHO]

i don't think there should be a re-vote....i find those ballots easy to understand if your too stupid to look carefully at the ballot or ask an official there for help then you either don't need to vote or that's the same as forfiting your vote

 

[MrPALCO]

So easy a child can do it!!

Come on Dems....between the Clinton scam and this election grab attempt, even your &quot;supporters&quot; will leave you.

 

[ride525]

Here's an article that shows how the ballot was confusing:

Concerns surfaced early in Palm Beach County

 

[chess9]

Ride525:

Nice post!

Yeah, I love to hear these Republicans tell us how stupid the upper middle class Jewish voters are. That'll go over real big with a Palm Beach County Circuit Court Judge.

We'll see who ends up looking stupid!!!

 

[ride525]

Yeah,

It was causing enough problems that a memo had to be written DURING the day......I wonder how fast the memo could be distributed to 500 polling places, and how many folks had already voted...

 

[chess9]

Mr.Palco:

Since Hitler and Attila the Hun are dead, I see you got the next best thing-Jerry Falwell.

Unfortunately, the 4th graders didn't have a punch board. Since their teacher is too stupid to understand how important it is to replicate the conditions of an experiment to verify its validity, I can only wonder about the quality of the education those poor children are receiving.

Posting this speaks volumes about you and Falwell as well.

Let's see what a Palm Beach County Circuit Court Judge has to say about the intelligence of upper middle class Jewish voters, to say nothing of the many disenfranchised minorities.

You guys remind me of Sisiphus, except your stone is so much bigger....

 

[ride525]

Yes, the fourth grade didn't replicate the condidions in Florida.

And the fact remains, the ballot WAS confusing to a significant number of those that voted.

See article a few posts up.

 

[MrPALCO]

All right Dems...you want to talk voting irregularities?

Dems....we understand this is a fight.

Pack your bags...you are out.

 

[SuperTool]

First of all, Judicial Watch isn't the most reliable source in the world. What will they do after Bill Clinton is out of the office?
Second, I got my citizenship last year, and if you are telling me that INS is speeding it up, it takes forever. First of all, you have to live in the U.S. for 5 years. Then, after you apply it takes a year, if you are lucky, to get an interview with INS. If you pass that, it takes another several months to take your oath of allegiance.
And all these waiting times are completely random. I passed my interview 3 months ahead of my brother at the same place, but he got his citizenship 6 months ahead of me. If that's not screwed up, I don't know what is.


<< &quot;As part of this program,&quot; the group said, &quot;non-English speakers have had naturalization interviews illegally conducted in the alien's native language, as well as a case where an alien -- without any residence, family or business ties in the U.S. -- was naturalized only three days after returning to the U.S. from an 11-and-a-half month absence from the country.&quot; >>


This is bull. The INS picked on my 80 year old grandfather whose English wasn't up to their standards. He didn't pass his interview, and has already waited 1.5 years to reschedule it. So much for rushing things.
The second part is B.S. too. One of my relatives lived in the U.S. since 1989, but can't get his citizenship because he did business overseas, and there is a requirement that you spend most of last 5 years in the U.S. to be able to apply.

The INS is full of red tape. I am not saying they shouldn't be careful when giving citizenship, but even exercising due dilligence shouldn't take that long. That system needs to be streamlined. And if the whacko conservatives want to keep the immigrants from voting, they can just FOAD.

Oh and these same conservatives have no problems giving citizenship to Cuban exiles on the spot just for reaching our shores because they vote Republican. Why are right wingers so hypocritical? Also, with the numbers of immigrants coming in, it is unwise to pick on them. They will most likely be citizens one day. Where is Pete Wilson now?

 

[MrPALCO]

<< First of all, Judicial Watch isn't the most reliable source in the world. >>



Who is?...CNN?...Hehe...

 

[SuperTool]

That's nice MrPalco, that you can only respond to that part of my argument. When you point out a lawsuit that Judicial Watch has filed that wasn't on behalf of the right wingers, I will believe you.