affleck spars with bill maher & harris over islam

[manimal]

go to school, have some sandwiches!


Afflecks best line!

 

[HumblePie]

No, Islam does not have that belief. Yes, it IS possible to educate yourself. Try that sometime. Thank you

And who here looks like the uneducated looney? Me or the idiot making the assumption I was referring to Islam?

The other guy made a general question and I made a general answer as a flippant response to his trolling question. Then along comes you.

 

[ivwshane]

Going Affleck on me?

Quick- where did I say "liberals hate Christians."? When did Maher say this? Nobody came close. Do a search and fine one, yes a single, post where I make an all inclusive statement saying Muslims are dogs. I think some of them are like those behind ISIS, but I said in my post you didn't like that I strongly disagree with those thoughts. GTG, but think about what Maher and Harris and I are actually trying to say, not what you would have had us to say. It's not "everybody", but it is people like Affleck who are a real problem for liberalism as it ought to be.

Christians are bad people and if you admit it or not that's the consensus.

That's not the consensus and I already explained why and I explained that anyone who does feel that way are also in the wrong.


I'm just trying to get clarification on what you and Harris, maher, are trying to say because it seems like it's predicated by a false premise.

 

[smackababy]

That's not the consensus and I already explained why and I explained that anyone who does feel that way are also in the wrong.


I'm just trying to get clarification on what you and Harris, maher, are trying to say because it seems like it's predicated by a false premise.

If we look at all Christians, throughout history, consensus would be the majority were bad people, but today's standards. The Dark Ages alone should prove such.

 

[ivwshane]

If we look at all Christians, throughout history, consensus would be the majority were bad people, but today's standards. The Dark Ages alone should prove such.

No, the consensus would be bad things were done in the name of Christianity just like bad things were done in the name of freedom (Hiroshima, Nagasaki ring a bell). Hell! A lot of bad things were done in the name of religion, does that make all religious people, both living and historical, bad people? No it doesn't, it's a view held by uneducated or fearful people. If you wish to continue spreading ignorance then by all means continue with this uneducated view. I'm sure you'd apply the same logic to how many people Americans have killed in our short history and you'd agree with the Islamic extremists who think all Americans are bad. After all, the Islamic extremist terrorists use the same logic you are using, surely their thinking can't be defective.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That's not the consensus and I already explained why and I explained that anyone who does feel that way are also in the wrong.


I'm just trying to get clarification on what you and Harris, maher, are trying to say because it seems like it's predicated by a false premise.

I'm glad you think they would be in the wrong, however that does not mean that those who are wrong are without influence. This is more than about Islam, but the stunning hypocrisy and bullying tactics too often seen. I suggest you read Harris' blog on this. He and Maher got jumped.

As far as people on the left and tolerance re Christianity I give you this random sample.
Clearly no bias, contempt and nothing but a desire to know the truth before coming to a conclusion.

A Christian must have been responsible, and of course all Muslims have to want us dead. Well, I think either argument is irresponsible.

I'll head you off right now and say that there are liberals I like and respect. I'm on good terms with several here if you have noticed, some rather more left than the typical liberal. That's because they have some quality worth noting and I'll not name names. There are many things I like in principle about the best of liberal ideals. When I see Affleck try to kowtow and silence people who want to uphold those principles and apply them more universally? Definitely not impressed.

With the caveat that this does not universally apply to all I'll paraphrase "I like your liberalism very much, but I don't like your liberals."

I'd like to see the rational chain of thought which leads from noting a problem of womens rights, religious persecution to the point of death among others, and being one who says blacks are violent because they are black. Conform or be cast out? Neither. Abandon such people as I have, don't excuse them. Stand for the principle, not the messenger.

 

[ivwshane]

Bullying tactics? He was trying to condemn the very thing you claim to dislike, over generalizing entire swaths of people. You claim you are for a rational chain of thought but then you say you support a clearly irrational thought.

On what side of the table do you think Ben afflec was on? Maybe you are confused as to who is who.

 

[momeNt]

Seems like either being black is an idea, like religion is, or that's an idiotic post.

Categorizing people based on an identifying factor. Valid and not idiotic, but thanks for bringing insults into the discussion!

 

[realibrad]

So this is where I figured it would go. Can you generalize about a group, when a belief is typical? Further, can you say a group has a problem when a belief is common among a group, and not of others?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Can you generalize about a group, when a belief is typical?

No. Well that depends on the group.

Further, can you say a group has a problem when a belief is common among a group, and not of others?

That depends on the group and who is doing the looking. It's always this way.

 

[realibrad]

No. Well that depends on the group.

That depends on the group and who is doing the looking. It's always this way.

I'm not asking if you are supposed to in terms of being politically correct. I don't understand why if a group has a majority view point, it is somehow wrong to say group x typically believes x. Further, if idea x is believed by group x at a 30% rate, and when compared to all other groups, the rate is 1%, why is it wrong to say group X has a problem with believing idea x?

I would imagine most would say that adultery being punished by stoning is immoral and wrong to do, yet in the Muslim world, its rate is above anything close to the next group. We are not talking about 1% of the Muslim population having this view point, and Christians at .1% either.

Take a look at this article again.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

And take a look at this graph again.

These are not fringe views. If we were talking about 1% of a population of 1.5 billion, that would still be 15 million having said view. The problem, is that its not just 1%. The real number is very likely in the hundreds of millions.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not asking if you are supposed to in terms of being politically correct. I don't understand why if a group has a majority view point, it is somehow wrong to say group x typically believes x. Further, if idea x is believed by group x at a 30% rate, and when compared to all other groups, the rate is 1%, why is it wrong to say group X has a problem with believing idea x?

I would imagine most would say that adultery being punished by stoning is immoral and wrong to do, yet in the Muslim world, its rate is above anything close to the next group. We are not talking about 1% of the Muslim population having this view point, and Christians at .1% either.

Take a look at this article again.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

And take a look at this graph again.

These are not fringe views. If we were talking about 1% of a population of 1.5 billion, that would still be 15 million having said view. The problem, is that its not just 1%. The real number is very likely in the hundreds of millions.

Someone decides what the ideologues must believe but further who it applies to. The elite such as AFLAC (yes intentional) tell the lower socially ranking members that they will think like he does or he will label them racists who hate blacks. Few are willing to be shunned by their ideological superiors so they either automatically believe out of conditioning, have already adopted that view before hand, or say they agree out of fear of excommunication. It's common among ideologues of any stripe. Conform or be cast out.

 

[realibrad]

"It does seem kind of silly to point at Muslims and call them murderers, and at the same time ignore the (hundreds of thousands?) of people the U.S. has killed during its ever so noble "anti terror campaigns".
Some Islamists cut off a few heads and we point and call them out, and then the U.S. bombs start dropping and don't fucking stop for years and years. I don't know. Just saying. No one is innocent. I just see people doing the ugly shit that people do. I honestly don't think it has a thing to do with any religion. If religion never took hold, people would still do what they do and slaughter each other, guaranteed."

I feel like this is a common way that people look at things. Its just a lack at an attempt to critically think about the subject. There is an idea out there, that Muslims are non this or that, with out any reason to believe it. I think people are so used to not believing anything negative about a religious group as a whole, so they figure it must the universal.

Some how, the fact that Muslims carry ideas that are bad should not be talked about, because other groups used to be just as bad. Christians have done some pretty horrible things, and some still do. Somehow, that means that you cannot talk negatively about Muslim beliefs or actions. As someone who does not believe in any religion, I feel like I dont have a bias, but I often find that people label me as a pro christian when I say these things. There seems to be this idea that if you talk about about Muslims, its because you are pro another religion.

 

[ivwshane]

Who or how many of a group or religion must condemn or speak out against a belief or practice or atrocity till it no longer becomes acceptable to label an entire group based on a subset of that groups actions?

If you don't have a number or a percentage then your point is full of shit.

Just to show you how stupid your argument is I'll give you a few barbaric examples of "US culture":

Multiple news stories have reported on cops killing unarmed and innocent people, mostly black. Are all Americans racist? Are all cops barbaric? Where is the outrage from other cops? I haven't seen all Americans be outraged about it, I guess they support it. All police officers and all Americans must support such activity because they aren't all speaking out about it. How many times do things like this need to happen until Americans do something?

About 20% of our college women are raped, that's quite barbaric! Hell! 1 in 3 women in the military are raped! Even military men are raped! So I guess our culture is one that supports rape because I don't see anyone condemning this action or trying to change this behavior and I don't see anyone trying to stop it from happening. So we should now label college students and military personnel barbaric and all rapers.

Also in the news a lot has been domestic violence, it appears that beating your women is rather common. What low life would do that? Apparently married men in the US support such things, it happens all the time, it's even on US tv! Since I don't hear any married men coming out against domestic violence it must mean that they are ok with it, the fact that these a users aren't killed are proof that Americans are ok with this behavior.

Clearly, if I'm an outsider looking in, America is not only a shit hole with all it's rioting for any reason, whether it's against police brutality or because their favorite sports team won, it's quite the violent culture! Hell! Americans even have laws giving them the right to have guns! They have gun shows for christs sake! Every few months you hear about some truely horrific incident where unarmed children are killed! You can't get any more barbaric than that! And we all know Americans, all of them, support such behavior! Their tv shows are nothing but violence, everyone has a gun, even their politicians shoot guns in their campaign ads touting how much they love guns. Americans walk around in malls carrying guns, even bringing them in when they go into restaurants! Why are all Americans so violent? No one speaks out about this barbaric culture of theirs and if someone happens to they are shouted down and treated like an scum.

Let's not even get started on Americans culture of stupidity, I could write several paragraphs on Americans love for all things stupid and how their culture embraces stupidity.

But hey! It's all those barbaric Muslims, all 1+ billion of them and especially the 6+ million of them in the US, that's like barbaric^2, they are the problem, every single one of them!

 

[ivwshane]

I feel like this is a common way that people look at things. Its just a lack at an attempt to critically think about the subject. There is an idea out there, that Muslims are non this or that, with out any reason to believe it. I think people are so used to not believing anything negative about a religious group as a whole, so they figure it must the universal.

You should have stopped right there.

 

[realibrad]

Who or how many of a group or religion must condemn or speak out against a belief or practice or atrocity till it no longer becomes acceptable to label an entire group based on a subset of that groups actions?

If you don't have a number or a percentage then your point is full of shit.

Just to show you how stupid your argument is I'll give you a few barbaric examples of "US culture":

Multiple news stories have reported on cops killing unarmed and innocent people, mostly black. Are all Americans racist? Are all cops barbaric? Where is the outrage from other cops? I haven't seen all Americans be outraged about it, I guess they support it. All police officers and all Americans must support such activity because they aren't all speaking out about it. How many times do things like this need to happen until Americans do something?

About 20% of our college women are raped, that's quite barbaric! Hell! 1 in 3 women in the military are raped! Even military men are raped! So I guess our culture is one that supports rape because I don't see anyone condemning this action or trying to change this behavior and I don't see anyone trying to stop it from happening. So we should now label college students and military personnel barbaric and all rapers.

Also in the news a lot has been domestic violence, it appears that beating your women is rather common. What low life would do that? Apparently married men in the US support such things, it happens all the time, it's even on US tv! Since I don't hear any married men coming out against domestic violence it must mean that they are ok with it, the fact that these a users aren't killed are proof that Americans are ok with this behavior.

Clearly, if I'm an outsider looking in, America is not only a shit hole with all it's rioting for any reason, whether it's against police brutality or because their favorite sports team won, it's quite the violent culture! Hell! Americans even have laws giving them the right to have guns! They have gun shows for christs sake! Every few months you hear about some truely horrific incident where unarmed children are killed! You can't get any more barbaric than that! And we all know Americans, all of them, support such behavior! Their tv shows are nothing but violence, everyone has a gun, even their politicians shoot guns in their campaign ads touting how much they love guns. Americans walk around in malls carrying guns, even bringing them in when they go into restaurants! Why are all Americans so violent? No one speaks out about this barbaric culture of theirs and if someone happens to they are shouted down and treated like an scum.

Let's not even get started on Americans culture of stupidity, I could write several paragraphs on Americans love for all things stupid and how their culture embraces stupidity.

But hey! It's all those barbaric Muslims, all 1+ billion of them and especially the 6+ million of them in the US, that's like barbaric^2, they are the problem, every single one of them!

Ill bite, cause it seems simple. You did say a lot though, so ill try and get to all of it if I can.

So your contention is that because I have not given a hard line number that a group must hit before you can label the group, my points are invalid. To substantiate this, you use the analogy of women raped in the US at 20%. Without getting into what constitutes, lets just assume that number is true.

I would then say that American have a problem with rape. As for the cops shooting people, unless you have a number, then the statement would be conjecture. If there were real numbers, then you could make a statement. There are not reliable national numbers, so I don't feel I could say with any authority anything.

Also, if you don't see anyone trying to change rapes in the US, then you may not be keeping up with modern culture. Rape has been an issue in the media quite a bit lately. Even the White House has gotten involved, so not sure where you got that from.


Next is domestic abuse. The presupposition that because "you" don't see men speaking out about it, must mean that "men" are okay with it is flawed. It could be true, or it may not. Having said that, there is far too much domestic abuse in the US for sure. I would argue that domestic abuse is mostly ignored when men are the abused. Here I would also say that the US has a problem with domestic violence. The fact that it happens so often does mean that as a culture, we do far to often accept it, and should do more about it. I am in fact dealing with it now, where the male family member is the abused one.

So up until now, with the examples you have chosen, I am for the most part with you on there being issues.

Next is that America is a violent culture, and here is where you jump the shark.

America does accept far too much violence in its culture. However, the violence seen in America is far far far less than what is typically seen in Muslim nations. In fact, its far less than many countries, but is for sure not at acceptable levels. Here it seems you are trying to imply that American culture is just as violent or similar enough to warrant compare. So here I would ask you to give me data to support his. I can say that per capita violence in the US is far lower than most Mulsim countries.

The last part is really the main issue here.

"But hey! It's all those barbaric Muslims, all 1+ billion of them..."

I will go back to my previous stats about stoning for adultery.

Sam Harris said that there are moderate Muslims, but there is a problem in the Muslim community with bad beliefs. When you see stats like what I just posted, that statement seems to be correct, and not racist, but empirical.

The statement was not that Muslims believe x, the statement was that Muslims have a problem with the belief in X.

So when you ask... "Who or how many of a group or religion must condemn or speak out against a belief or practice or atrocity till it no longer becomes acceptable to label an entire group based on a subset of that groups actions?"

I would say it would need to be a subjective vast majority, somewhere in the 91+%. Also, just so we are clear, I am not Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Mormon or any religion. I don't see any reason to believe in any religion.

 

[Jaskalas]

Who or how many of a group or religion must condemn or speak out against a belief or practice or atrocity till it no longer becomes acceptable to label an entire group based on a subset of that groups actions?

When the men holding power speak out against and condemn violence.

When governments protect women and minorities.

When they fight and bleed for these western ideals of Liberty.

 

[realibrad]

When the men holding power speak out against and condemn violence.

When governments protect women and minorities.

When they fight and bleed for these western ideals of Liberty.

I would say that the last part is not even required. Liberty is not a western ideal, as we are giving up more and more of it. I would just say they should push for it. I hope there would not be a need for blood to get there, although I will admit it is likely.

 

[ivwshane]

Ill bite, cause it seems simple. You did say a lot though, so ill try and get to all of it if I can.

So your contention is that because I have not given a hard line number that a group must hit before you can label the group, my points are invalid. To substantiate this, you use the analogy of women raped in the US at 20%. Without getting into what constitutes, lets just assume that number is true.

I would then say that American have a problem with rape. As for the cops shooting people, unless you have a number, then the statement would be conjecture. If there were real numbers, then you could make a statement. There are not reliable national numbers, so I don't feel I could say with any authority anything.

Also, if you don't see anyone trying to change rapes in the US, then you may not be keeping up with modern culture. Rape has been an issue in the media quite a bit lately. Even the White House has gotten involved, so not sure where you got that from.


Next is domestic abuse. The presupposition that because "you" don't see men speaking out about it, must mean that "men" are okay with it is flawed. It could be true, or it may not. Having said that, there is far too much domestic abuse in the US for sure. I would argue that domestic abuse is mostly ignored when men are the abused. Here I would also say that the US has a problem with domestic violence. The fact that it happens so often does mean that as a culture, we do far to often accept it, and should do more about it. I am in fact dealing with it now, where the male family member is the abused one.

So up until now, with the examples you have chosen, I am for the most part with you on there being issues.

Next is that America is a violent culture, and here is where you jump the shark.

America does accept far too much violence in its culture. However, the violence seen in America is far far far less than what is typically seen in Muslim nations. In fact, its far less than many countries, but is for sure not at acceptable levels. Here it seems you are trying to imply that American culture is just as violent or similar enough to warrant compare. So here I would ask you to give me data to support his. I can say that per capita violence in the US is far lower than most Mulsim countries.

The last part is really the main issue here.

"But hey! It's all those barbaric Muslims, all 1+ billion of them..."

I will go back to my previous stats about stoning for adultery.

Sam Harris said that there are moderate Muslims, but there is a problem in the Muslim community with bad beliefs. When you see stats like what I just posted, that statement seems to be correct, and not racist, but empirical.

The statement was not that Muslims believe x, the statement was that Muslims have a problem with the belief in X.

So when you ask... "Who or how many of a group or religion must condemn or speak out against a belief or practice or atrocity till it no longer becomes acceptable to label an entire group based on a subset of that groups actions?"

I would say it would need to be a subjective vast majority, somewhere in the 91+%. Also, just so we are clear, I am not Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Mormon or any religion. I don't see any reason to believe in any religion.

Well, I've got news for you, 90%+ of Americans haven't spoken out about the issues in this country so you have now labeled all Americans as being a barbaric people. I don't think I need to tell you why that's wrong but if you still insist go ahead, you'll notice you justified my examples and explained away the issues while not affording the same opportunity to people of the Muslim faith or you have simply ignored their cries of condemnation and rationalizations.

 

[realibrad]

Well, I've got news for you, 90%+ of Americans haven't spoken out about the issues in this country so you have now labeled all Americans as being a barbaric people. I don't think I need to tell you why that's wrong but if you still insist go ahead, you'll notice you justified my examples and explained away the issues while not affording the same opportunity to people of the Muslim faith or you have simply ignored their cries of condemnation and rationalizations.

I am not asking for 90+ people to speak out. I am saying that 90%+ need to not believe in things like stoning as a punishment for cheating. I also never called American people as a whole barbaric.

Ill ask you this. What do you think I have over generalized about Muslims?

 

[ivwshane]

When the men holding power speak out against and condemn violence.

If you aren't aware of people in power speaking out does it mean it doesn't happen?

When governments protect women and minorities.

When they fight and bleed for these western ideals of Liberty.

Why would an eastern culture need to fight for western ideals? Because your way is the right way to live? Can I impose my ideals on you because I believe my way of life is the right way to live?

 

[zinfamous]

That was funny. Afleck going into full idiot mode.

pretty much. It was very painful to watch. The rest of the show, he's so visibly upset, impatient, and outright uncomfortable--like a petulant 5 year-old. Just watch him while the dude to his right his talking.

 

[ivwshane]

I am not asking for 90+ people to speak out. I am saying that 90%+ need to not believe in things like stoning as a punishment for cheating. I also never called American people as a whole barbaric.

Ill ask you this. What do you think I have over generalized about Muslims?

And you know 90% of Muslims support stoning for cheating? How? Not even 90% in the poll you posted believe such things and let's not pretend that a few countries represent the billion plus members of Muslim faith.

Now if you want to say a majority of Egyptian Muslims support stoning, then go for it, you have the data. You will note that I clarified that statement, "a majority", as in not all, "Egyptian Muslims", as in localized to that particular country. Saying Muslims support stoning for cheating, would be a generalization. Not a big deal when casually talking about a group but when real policies are created that could cause people to die, or when people are elected that will have the power to create such policies, it's an important distinction.

Generalizations like that are just as appalling and ridiculous as when people make the claim that all dems are lazy or that all republicans are greedy, it's fine when talking casually but when actually trying to have a discussion to move real policy in any direction it doesn't help the conversation.

 

[realibrad]

And you know 90% of Muslims support stoning for cheating? How? Not even 90% in the poll you posted believe such things and let's not pretend that a few countries represent the billion plus members of Muslim faith.

Now if you want to say a majority of Egyptian Muslims support stoning, then go for it, you have the data. You will note that I clarified that statement, "a majority", as in not all, "Egyptian Muslims", as in localized to that particular country. Saying Muslims support stoning for cheating, would be a generalization. Not a big deal when casually talking about a group but when real policies are created that could cause people to die, or when people are elected that will have the power to create such policies, it's an important distinction.

Generalizations like that are just as appalling and ridiculous as when people make the claim that all dems are lazy or that all republicans are greedy, it's fine when talking casually but when actually trying to have a discussion to move real policy in any direction it doesn't help the conversation.

You misunderstood my statement. You had asked how much of a culture needs to not believe in something, for someone not to generalize. My response was 91%+ must not believe in something for them not to be generalized.

The whole issue, that was raised, was about the backlash when people criticize the Muslim culture. I don't understand why people would defend a culture where horrible views are very common among that group.

Men far too often rape women.
Christians are far too often homophobic.
Muslims far to often hold beliefs that are harmful to society.

 

[Jaskalas]

Why would an eastern culture need to fight for western ideals?

Non-violence and non-slavery are western ideals?

I demand them of people who share our land.