Aethiests and the ACLU would have a fit over this

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yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
ACLU would be the first one to defend this as free speech, if it's not on government property.
Or course it's only befitting that Christian bigots saddle Liberty with a cross and take away it's light. Very symbolic.

hehe yeap. i found it rather funny. I am pretty sure the church would not get it either heh.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:

how would the economy die?

 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:

how would the economy die?

um if there were no desire in goods.. need i explain?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:

how would the economy die?

um if there were no desire in goods.. need i explain?

hmm i really do not think it says no desire for goods.


but i thought you were getting at the no work on sunday heh.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:

how would the economy die?

um if there were no desire in goods.. need i explain?

hmm i really do not think it says no desire for goods.


but i thought you were getting at the no work on sunday heh.

covet your neighbor's goods.. or translated to today's terms, desire other's goods
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:

how would the economy die?

um if there were no desire in goods.. need i explain?

hmm i really do not think it says no desire for goods.


but i thought you were getting at the no work on sunday heh.

covet your neighbor's goods.. or translated to today's terms, desire other's goods

"Keeping up with the Jones's" mentality is one of the greatest factors in destroying people's lives and this country.
 

Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
ACLU would be the first one to defend this as free speech, if it's not on government property.
Or course it's only befitting that Christian bigots saddle Liberty with a cross and take away it's light. Very symbolic.


Meh... I get what you are driving at, but you clearly don't understand the Christain faith. They would simply say they have substituted one light for another.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: oogabooga
DurocShark - You were wrong. If your friend agreed with you I advice you two pick up a copy of the constitution.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion if you don't want to see it in any way, shape or form. The government doesn't endorse a religion but you're encouraged, nay welcome to participate in whichever form of it you wish.

Speaking of documents people haven't read - have you ever read the ten commandments? If you are going to deny that religion had any influence on constitution and law you're crazy.


Case and point - You spouted off your hate before you even thought hard enough to form a good point. You said something stupid, people called you out on it.

Funny you mention the 10 commandments.
Only two or three(stealing, murder, lying in court) of the commandments can actually be an enforceable law.. the others are just plain stupid.
Can't covet your neighbor's goods? Can't work on sunday? The economy would die if everyone followed the 10 commandments.
Apparently you haven't read the 10 commandments.
:roll:

how would the economy die?

um if there were no desire in goods.. need i explain?

hmm i really do not think it says no desire for goods.


but i thought you were getting at the no work on sunday heh.

covet your neighbor's goods.. or translated to today's terms, desire other's goods

"Keeping up with the Jones's" mentality is one of the greatest factors in destroying people's lives and this country.

Only except coveting your neighbor's good simply doesn't mean making sure you have what your neighbor has, or as you put it "keeping up the goods".
It probably would've been a good law when they wrote it when things were mass manufactured, and you could just go out to get something you liked that you saw someone have. Thus you could only be envious. But now you can... and there's nothing wrong with it. Point in case.. most of the commandments doesn't apply to today's world.
Get with the times.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Thraxen
Originally posted by: senseamp
ACLU would be the first one to defend this as free speech, if it's not on government property.
Or course it's only befitting that Christian bigots saddle Liberty with a cross and take away it's light. Very symbolic.


Meh... I get what you are driving at, but you clearly don't understand the Christain faith. They would simply say they have substituted one light for another.

Yeah, green light for a red one.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Only except coveting your neighbor's good simply doesn't mean making sure you have what your neighbor has, or as you put it "keeping up the goods".
It probably would've been a good law when they wrote it when things were mass manufactured, and you could just go out to get something you liked that you saw someone have. Thus you could only be envious. But now you can... and there's nothing wrong with it. Point in case.. most of the commandments doesn't apply to today's world.
Get with the times.

Most of the commandments don't apply to today's world?

Murder, adultery, stealing, lieing, and coveting are all things which it's pretty good not to do. Honoring your mother and father is also pretty good advice.

So I say that 6 out of the 10 commandments pretty much do apply to today's life.
 

Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,532
34
91
One thing to remember is that to a follower of "the way" (Christ, disciples, etc), a cross is not a Chistian symbol, but a reminder of how "unchristian" mainstream Chistianity has become with the adoption of ancient, pagan symbols. Most people don't realize the "cross" was amalgamated into "christianity" alot like Christmas, Easter, etc... to appease the pagan masses and the church at the same time; all in the name of political gain.

Aside from the fact that the cross (like pictures of Jesus, etc) is a "graven image" (which violates the 2nd commandment), it is also a carryover from worship of the God of Tamuz, and really has no place in Christianity.

So really, atheists and the ACLU should be happy to see such confusion coming from people who profess to be Christians as they are violating at least one of its guidelines on a daily basis.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: kranky
Clearly, a lot of people seem upset that something with a religious connotation is visible to the public.

Why this would be, I have no idea. It comes across as a pathological hatred.

I think it might have something to do with them taking an essentially secular american icon and turning it into a Christian marketing ploy.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,402
15,823
146
Interesting relevant article:

Disowning Conservative Politics Is Costly for Pastor

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN, The New York Times

MAPLEWOOD, Minn. (July 30) -- Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing -- and the church's -- to conservative political candidates and causes.

The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute ?voters? guides? that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn?t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called ?The Cross and the Sword? in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a ?Christian nation? and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

?When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,? Mr. Boyd preached. ?When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.?

Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God?s ideal. The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul -- packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals -- was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.

But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share.

?Most of my friends are believers,? said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, ?and they think if you?re a believer, you?ll vote for Bush. And it?s scary to go against that.?

Sermons like Mr. Boyd?s are hardly typical in today?s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.

At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written ?Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America -- an Evangelical?s Lament.?

And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, ?The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,? which is based on his sermons.

?There is a lot of discontent brewing,? said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the ?emerging church,? which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.

?More and more people are saying this has gone too far -- the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,? Mr. McLaren said. ?You cannot say the word ?Jesus? in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can?t say the word ?Christian,? and you certainly can?t say the word ?evangelical? without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.

?Because people think, ?Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ?activist judges.? ?

Mr. Boyd said he had cleared his sermons with the church?s board, but his words left some in his congregation stunned. Some said that he was disrespecting President Bush and the military, that he was soft on abortion or telling them not to vote.

?When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,? said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. ?But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can?t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70?s, it wouldn?t have happened. But the church was asleep.?

Mr. Boyd, 49, who preaches in blue jeans and rumpled plaid shirts, leads a church that occupies a squat block-long building that was once a home improvement chain store.

The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd?s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.

He is known among evangelicals for a bestselling book, ?Letters From a Skeptic,? based on correspondence with his father, a leftist union organizer and a lifelong agnostic -- an exchange that eventually persuaded his father to embrace Christianity.

Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into ?idolatry.?

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch?s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing ?God Bless America? and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

?I thought to myself, ?What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?? ? he said in an interview.

Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd?s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a ?freedom celebration.? Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending ?your hard-earned money? on good causes.

In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek ?power over? others -- by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars.

Christians should instead seek to have ?power under? others ? ?winning people?s hearts? by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.

?America wasn?t founded as a theocracy,? he said. ?America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn?t bloody and barbaric. That?s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

?I am sorry to tell you,? he continued, ?that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.?

Mr. Boyd lambasted the ?hypocrisy and pettiness? of Christians who focus on ?sexual issues? like homosexuality, abortion or Janet Jackson?s breast-revealing performance at the Super Bowl halftime show. He said Christians these days were constantly outraged about sex and perceived violations of their rights to display their faith in public.

?Those are the two buttons to push if you want to get Christians to act,? he said. ?And those are the two buttons Jesus never pushed.?

Some Woodland Hills members said they applauded the sermons because they had resolved their conflicted feelings. David Churchill, a truck driver for U.P.S. and a Teamster for 26 years, said he had been ?raised in a religious-right home? but was torn between the Republican expectations of faith and family and the Democratic expectations of his union.

When Mr. Boyd preached his sermons, ?it was liberating to me,? Mr. Churchill said.

Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said.

Mary Van Sickle, the family pastor at Woodland Hills, said she lost 20 volunteers who had been the backbone of the church?s Sunday school.

?They said, ?You?re not doing what the church is supposed to be doing, which is supporting the Republican way,? ? she said. ?It was some of my best volunteers.?

The Rev. Paul Eddy, a theology professor at Bethel College and the teaching pastor at Woodland Hills, said: ?Greg is an anomaly in the megachurch world. He didn?t give a whit about church leadership, never read a book about church growth. His biggest fear is that people will think that all church is is a weekend carnival, with people liking the worship, the music, his speaking, and that?s it.?

In the end, those who left tended to be white, middle-class suburbanites, church staff members said. In their place, the church has added more members who live in the surrounding community ? African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos.

This suits Mr. Boyd. His vision for his church is an ethnically and economically diverse congregation that exemplifies Jesus? teachings by its members? actions. He, his wife and three other families from the church moved from the suburbs three years ago to a predominantly black neighborhood in St. Paul.

Mr. Boyd now says of the upheaval: ?I don?t regret any aspect of it at all. It was a defining moment for us. We let go of something we were never called to be. We just didn?t know the price we were going to pay for doing it.?

His congregation of about 4,000 is still digesting his message. Mr. Boyd arranged a forum on a recent Wednesday night to allow members to sound off on his new book. The reception was warm, but many of the 56 questions submitted in writing were pointed: Isn?t abortion an evil that Christians should prevent? Are you saying Christians should not join the military? How can Christians possibly have ?power under? Osama bin Laden? Didn?t the church play an enormously positive role in the civil rights movement?

One woman asked: ?So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn?t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws??

Mr. Boyd responded: ?I don?t think there?s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don?t slap the label ?Christian? on it.?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: Caveman
One thing to remember is that to a follower of "the way" (Christ, disciples, etc), a cross is not a Chistian symbol, but a reminder of how "unchristian" mainstream Chistianity has become with the adoption of ancient, pagan symbols. Most people don't realize the "cross" was amalgamated into "christianity" alot like Christmas, Easter, etc... to appease the pagan masses and the church at the same time; all in the name of political gain.

Aside from the fact that the cross (like pictures of Jesus, etc) is a "graven image" (which violates the 2nd commandment), it is also a carryover from worship of the God of Tamuz, and really has no place in Christianity.

So really, atheists and the ACLU should be happy to see such confusion coming from people who profess to be Christians as they are violating at least one of its guidelines on a daily basis.

i have had questions on this part myself. why they worship the image of christ on the chros. shouldnt that go agains tthe commandment. usual answer is "but christ died ont he cross to forgive us of our sins".

i then ask why do we worshit the instrument that was used to kill him? that would be like worshiping the gun or sword.

shrug.
 

LEDominator

Senior member
May 31, 2006
388
0
76
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Caveman
One thing to remember is that to a follower of "the way" (Christ, disciples, etc), a cross is not a Chistian symbol, but a reminder of how "unchristian" mainstream Chistianity has become with the adoption of ancient, pagan symbols. Most people don't realize the "cross" was amalgamated into "christianity" alot like Christmas, Easter, etc... to appease the pagan masses and the church at the same time; all in the name of political gain.

Aside from the fact that the cross (like pictures of Jesus, etc) is a "graven image" (which violates the 2nd commandment), it is also a carryover from worship of the God of Tamuz, and really has no place in Christianity.

So really, atheists and the ACLU should be happy to see such confusion coming from people who profess to be Christians as they are violating at least one of its guidelines on a daily basis.

i have had questions on this part myself. why they worship the image of christ on the chros. shouldnt that go agains tthe commandment. usual answer is "but christ died ont he cross to forgive us of our sins".

i then ask why do we worshit the instrument that was used to kill him? that would be like worshiping the gun or sword.

shrug.

Originally the symbol for christianity was a fish, like the ones on the backs of cars. I imagine it was moved to the cross for a variety of reasons all of which have been mentioned on the thread. However, to answer your question, it would seem to me that the representation of the cross is representative of Christ conquering sin, not neccessarily the instrument itself. I mean, its a lot easier to draw that than to draw something else. I can only imagine what people would think of like a sad face on a stick or something, lol.

 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: kranky
Clearly, a lot of people seem upset that something with a religious connotation is visible to the public.

Why this would be, I have no idea. It comes across as a pathological hatred.

You nailed it.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,090
136
Originally posted by: BigJ
"Keeping up with the Jones's" mentality is one of the greatest factors in destroying people's lives and this country.

.. are you serious? Sure, this kind of mentality CAN be harmful if taken to an extreme. However, in essence it is part of the American Dream. To better the success of those who came before you, to desire "nice" things, to want to "improve" one's financial status. If you honestly believe this is one of the greatest factors destroying people's lives and this country I think you've missed the mark by more than a bit.
 

The Sauce

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
4,739
34
91
Nah, this doesn't make me nuts. It only demonstrates how desparately idiotic religion and the religious are. Eventually, over time, you just learn to sigh and shake your head. Fortunately reason and education are slowly but surely weeding religion out of society. This sort of display is kind of like the fat kid at the prom waving a box of condoms to prove how desirable he is. Sad, just sad.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Originally posted by: BigJ
"Keeping up with the Jones's" mentality is one of the greatest factors in destroying people's lives and this country.

.. are you serious? Sure, this kind of mentality CAN be harmful if taken to an extreme. However, in essence it is part of the American Dream. To better the success of those who came before you, to desire "nice" things, to want to "improve" one's financial status. If you honestly believe this is one of the greatest factors destroying people's lives and this country I think you've missed the mark by more than a bit.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with with wanting nicer things, to be successful, or wanting to improve one's financial status.

However, the mentality I mentioned goes far above and beyond that. When people spend themselves into oblivion and wind up accruing tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, which is so very common in this day and age, you have a very, very large problem. All just so they can have the status symbols of the people around them, or so they can have what other people think they should have.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Assuming that it's on church property, I'd never support a move to force it down, but I do find it rather ignorant and offensive.
 

shoRunner

Platinum Member
Nov 8, 2004
2,629
1
0
Originally posted by: BigJ
:thumbsup: to Mr. Boyd.

definately...the church needs more of him. the church is not a political party and has no reason to endorse or support one, that should be up to individual members and not a corporate decision.

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: michaels
I don't know, I just was at a light and spotted it and snapped a pic, I wasn't pay attention to the surroundings.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/05/us/05...1309752000&en=633335bb68bac96a&ei=5088

i would say it is on church property so the ACLU has no claims against it.

i read the article and wondered where journalistic neutrality went (or at least the pretense of it). it seems as if shaila dewan disliked that statue and wanted to write an article bashing it instead of simply reporting the news, but of course what major news agency does that anymore.