About this immigrant rally during shutdown

[woolfe9998]

That point has already been clarified.

Do you have anything to contribute about a park being open to a special interest group while other parks remain closed to the general public?

Thank you for editing your OP, but no it had not been clarified until I entered the thread.

As to why the National Mall was open for an immigration protest, presumably it is because it's a protected first amendment activity and they got a permit. People who are trying to visit closed monuments aren't necessarily there to engage in first amendment activity and probably didn't attempt to get a permit in advance. There is no Constitutional right to simply enter an area which has been closed to the public just because you want to visit a monument.

Staging a protext/= visiting a monument. It's apples to oranges. Show me where a group who wanted to stage a protest and applied for a permit was denied entrance. Then you'll have an argument for differential treatment.

 

[Texashiker]

Staging a protext/= visiting a monument. It's apples to oranges. Show me where a group who wanted to stage a protest and got a permit was denied entrance. Then you'll have an argument for differential treatment.

Will you accept this?

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/01/obama-admin-knew-about-wwii-veterans-request-and-rejected-it/

The White House and the Department of the Interior rejected a request from Rep. Steven Palazzo’s office to have World War II veterans visit the World War II memorial in Washington, the Mississippi Republican told The Daily Caller Tuesday.

And how about this exercise of religion?

In a stunning development, some military priests are facing arrest if they celebrate mass or practice their faith on military bases during the federal government shutdown.

“With the government shutdown, many [government service] and contract priests who minister to Catholics on military bases worldwide are not permitted to work – not even to volunteer,”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/04/p...if-they-minister-to-military-during-shutdown/

 

[woolfe9998]

Will you accept this?

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/01/obama-admin-knew-about-wwii-veterans-request-and-rejected-it/



And how about this exercise of religion?




Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/04/p...if-they-minister-to-military-during-shutdown/

As to your first link, no. Please re-read what I already wrote. Visiting a memorial is not a constitutionally protected activity.

As to your second link, I think the Archdiocese there has a solid point. I do understand why these contract priests aren't being paid during the shutdown, but I think they should be allowed on base to lead masses if they want to volunteer. I'm not sure why they aren't allowing it. They continue to pay the active duty chaplains and allow them to hold mass on base.

 

[Texashiker]

As to your first link, no. Please re-read what I already wrote. Visiting a memorial is not a constitutionally protected activity.

As to your second link, I think the Archdiocese there has a solid point. I do understand why these contract priests aren't being paid during the shutdown, but I think they should be allowed on base to lead masses if they want to volunteer. I'm not sure why they aren't allowing it. They continue to pay the active duty chaplains and allow them to hold mass on base.

I do not know of any protest on federal land since the shutdown started.

Most of it has been access denied for everyday stuff.

 

[Atreus21]

We need to create a thread, if there isn't one already, just to document the spiteful incidents that the government has perpetrated for the sole reason of making it hurt.

Like barricading and wire-tying open-air parks.

Or this:

http://www.newburyportnews.com/local/x1442580373/Gestapo-tactics-meet-senior-citizens-at-Yellowstone

Or this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...icted-lakeside-cabin-government-shutdown.html

Or this:

http://now.msn.com/national-park-se...privately-funded-mount-vernon-during-shutdown

 

[OutHouse]

Tpresumably it is because it's a protected first amendment activity and they got a permit.

if the mall was really closed they could protest some place else. nobody was stopping them to move to another location.

also i have serious heartburn over illegals having constitutional rights. round them all up and ship them back to where they came from

 

[Texashiker]

As to your first link, no. Please re-read what I already wrote. Visiting a memorial is not a constitutionally protected activity.

There have been times when protestors on public land have been told to leave, or have been relocated.

Take abortion clinics, protestors have to stay X number of feet away from the entrance. Even if the protestors are sanding on the sidewalk, they still have to stand X number of feet away.

Occupy wall street was barricaded into a small area that kept the entrance of wall street open.

People are not allowed to protest in front of the supreme court building. That area has been deemed a no free speech zone.

With the current situation, and all other parks closed, I think opening a certain park to a special interest group was inappropriate.

 

[Incorruptible]

Gotta love the double standards of the moron obama. Illegal immigrants who broke the law can have a rally but WWII veterans can't go to their memorial.

 

[Svnla]

I saw a large group of ILLEGALS and their lovers/supporters at a rally in Dallas on Saturday 10/5. They demanded all the rights and (gotta love this) "respect".

Are they for real? They ignore our immigration law and rule and now they DEMAND respect?

 

[woolfe9998]

There have been times when protestors on public land have been told to leave, or have been relocated.

Take abortion clinics, protestors have to stay X number of feet away from the entrance. Even if the protestors are sanding on the sidewalk, they still have to stand X number of feet away.

Occupy wall street was barricaded into a small area that kept the entrance of wall street open.

People are not allowed to protest in front of the supreme court building. That area has been deemed a no free speech zone.

With the current situation, and all other parks closed, I think opening a certain park to a special interest group was inappropriate.

Those other incidents have nothing to do with a shutdown. No doubt the government has at times placed what are called "time, place and manner" restrictions on free speech. Like the 10:00 p.m. curfew at the NYC memorial.

The issue you raised, however, is specific to the shutdown. You're asking why people who want to visit a monument are barred from entering but a protest group is allowed to stage a protest at the National Mall which is supposed to be closed due to the shutdown. I'm pretty sure I've adequately answered this.

 

[woolfe9998]

if the mall was really closed they could protest some place else. nobody was stopping them to move to another location.

Perhaps, but no one is stopping another group from staging a protest at the National Mall. If an anti-immigrant group wanted to stage a protest there, I see no reason they wouldn't be allowed. There's no evidence that any other protests are being disallowed.

also i have serious heartburn over illegals having constitutional rights. round them all up and ship them back to where they came from

Who said the protesters are themselves illegals? Some of them may be, but there's no way to check the citizenship of everyone showing up at a protest, especially before it even happens and you're issuing a permit. I highly doubt that those who applied for the permit weren't citizens.

 

[woolfe9998]

We need to create a thread, if there isn't one already, just to document the spiteful incidents that the government has perpetrated for the sole reason of making it hurt.

Like barricading and wire-tying open-air parks.

Or this:

http://www.newburyportnews.com/local/x1442580373/Gestapo-tactics-meet-senior-citizens-at-Yellowstone

Or this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...icted-lakeside-cabin-government-shutdown.html

Or this:

http://now.msn.com/national-park-se...privately-funded-mount-vernon-during-shutdown

You seriously think the White House is micromanaging how the Park Service and other agencies are doing their jobs in carrying out this shutdown? These people are given instructions that certain parks and facilities are being closed, and they're in charge of implementing it. If someone has a rude or unpleasant experience, I highly doubt this was intended from the highest levels of government. These anecdotes are probably not indicative even of what is generally happening at the ground level either. No one ever complains to the media when they're treated politely.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
As to why the National Mall was open for an immigration protest, presumably it is because it's a protected first amendment activity and they got a permit. People who are trying to visit closed monuments aren't necessarily there to engage in first amendment activity and probably didn't attempt to get a permit in advance. There is no Constitutional right to simply enter an area which has been closed to the public just because you want to visit a monument.

That seems rather doubtful to me. If a park, or other area is closed, I see no justification for their entry based on 1st Amendment rights. They're just told to exercise their right elsewhere.

And plenty of other people who had their permits and paid their fees in advance were been refused entrance to national parks.

Fern

 

[Fern]

This is just another example of the trite and vindictive character our President....the only "adult" in the room or so I'm told.

Yeah.

Seems to me that this 'event' was perhaps a little over-the-line and may have caused some policy changes. The Pisgah Inn, located on the Blue Ridge Parkway was (unnecessarily) shutdown. It's a private business and receives no govt funds or assistance from Park rangers, but was forcibly closed down anyway. The rangers who were stationed there to enforce the shutdown have been recalled and the Inn is now open.

I'm curious if other similar establishments around the country have been allowed to open.

Fern

 

[Atreus21]

You seriously think the White House is micromanaging how the Park Service and other agencies are doing their jobs in carrying out this shutdown?

Well, there is that account of the anonymous park ranger about being told to make things as difficult as possible for people which, so far, has not been impugned. I don't know that the White House is doing it.

These people are given instructions that certain parks and facilities are being closed, and they're in charge of implementing it. If someone has a rude or unpleasant experience, I highly doubt this was intended from the highest levels of government.

Regarding some sites I agree. But open-air memorials with no normal staff or security? What rationale might they offer for that?

These anecdotes are probably not indicative even of what is generally happening at the ground level either. No one ever complains to the media when they're treated politely.

Perhaps so, but it's not often that government tries to shut down private sites it has no authority to close.

 

[Texashiker]

Perhaps so, but it's not often that government tries to shut down private sites it has no authority to close.

And to shut down businesses that are run on federal land.

There is no reason to shut down a privately owned cafe that just happens to be in a park.

 

[Fern]

Looks some other businesses were also allowed to reopen today:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lose-during-slimdown-fight-for-rights-reopen/

Fern

 

[xBiffx]

Looks some other businesses were also allowed to reopen today:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lose-during-slimdown-fight-for-rights-reopen/

Fern

"Allowed to reopen."

Just the fact that you have to use that phrasing makes my blood boil. Land of the free my ass.

 

[woolfe9998]

Well, there is that account of the anonymous park ranger about being told to make things as difficult as possible for people which, so far, has not been impugned. I don't know that the White House is doing it.

I'm not sure how you "impugn" an anonymous source cited by a right wing newspaper. By saying that no one ever said it? Your "source" doesn't even say what level of government this edict came from. That makes it pretty hard to refute.

Regarding some sites I agree. But open-air memorials with no normal staff or security? What rationale might they offer for that?

Possibly a good point. I'd like to see some actual data on how much, if any, it costs them to keep these sites open versus barricading them before making that judgment.

Perhaps so, but it's not often that government tries to shut down private sites it has no authority to close.

Go back and read your own link on that one. It was pretty obviously an error, and one which was corrected very quickly. Shutdowns don't happen very often. It's not like there's a standardized procedure in place. Mistakes are going to be made, especially in the earliest stages.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
If someone has a rude or unpleasant experience, I highly doubt this was intended from the highest levels of government. These anecdotes are probably not indicative even of what is generally happening at the ground level either. No one ever complains to the media when they're treated politely.

We disagree.

On attempts to 'close' Florida bay:

Apparently, according to an anonymous Park Service ranger, “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/05/Feds-Try-to-Close-the-OCEAN-Because-of-Shutdown

Fern

 

[Fern]

I

Perhaps so, but it's not often that government tries to shut down private sites it has no authority to close.

Go back and read your own link on that one. It was pretty obviously an error, and one which was corrected very quickly. Shutdowns don't happen very often. It's not like there's a standardized procedure in place. Mistakes are going to be made, especially in the earliest stages.

It was an error alright, a political one.

Such businesses all over the country were shutdown. If it had happened to one it might be an (unintentional) error. But since it was all over the country seems clear to me that the order came from up high.

And it was intentional. There have been previous shutdowns and these businesses weren't forcibly closed. I.e., someone wasn't just following procedure, they were making it.

Fern

 

[woolfe9998]

We disagree.

On attempts to 'close' Florida bay:


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/05/Feds-Try-to-Close-the-OCEAN-Because-of-Shutdown

Fern

Yes, we disagree about the value of a single anonymous source cited in a right wing publication. If you think that makes your case, knock yourself out.

 

[woolfe9998]

It was an error alright, a political one.

Such businesses all over the country were shutdown. If it had happened to one it might be an (unintentional) error. But since it was all over the country seems clear to me that the order came from up high.

And it was intentional. There have been previous shutdowns and these businesses weren't forcibly closed. I.e., someone wasn't just following procedure, they were making it.

Fern

How many businesses were shut down? Were all business on federal lands shut down?

 

[Texashiker]

Yes, we disagree about the value of a single anonymous source cited in a right wing publication. If you think that makes your case, knock yourself out.

Closing one park to veterans, while opening another to an illegal immigrant rally is not acceptable.

You may argue the protest should have been allowed on freedom of speech.

I argue the only reason why the protestors can march is because of the veterans, and those that gave their lives in defense of this nation.

What the park service did is morally wrong. The way the veterans have been treated, all the way around, from closing parks, to stopping benefits, is wrong.

The national is being ran by a morally and financially bankrupt government.

 

[monovillage]

How many businesses were shut down? Were all business on federal lands shut down?

You're being embarrassingly disingenuous Woolfe, there's multiple sources to all those stories if you just bother to look for them.