A serious case of pure ownage

[arsbanned]

Check his history. Believe me, nothing miketheidiot said rises to the level of a ban, based on the general tone in P&N.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Jet Noise - Sound of Freedom:thumbsup:

Fiddlesticks. It's the sound of death for some people.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
no response from cwjerome for a while, perhaps he's to busy jerking it to his great leader's speach, like any true patriot.

You deserve a ban for this.

Pffft. Spend a little more time in P&N. Miketheidiot is Mother Theresa.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Check his history. Believe me, nothing miketheidiot said rises to the level of a ban, based on the general tone in P&N.

My bad, I would have sworn this was in OT (was it moved from there to here?)
Bill

 

[imported_Dart]

By far the people making most sense on this thread are those who say this discussion is pointless because hopefully Mr. McRae would not have made an idiot out of himself if he knew the reason behind the flyby. I still feel compelled to write something though because it is amazing how a bunch of people who know NOTHING about the military or flying make assumptions about what we do. I am an F-16 pilot at Luke AFB saw his complaint along with the responses by two commanders on our base. I found a link to this thread from another website. To us it is a little insulting to say the least but I'm sure he did not know what the flyby was about. Does he have the right to complain? Sure he does, but that doesnt mean he was right to. Instead of writing a knee-jerk reaction to the paper, call the base. PA people are used to dealing with noise complaints and would have let him know what was going on and he could have avoided writing the letter. Case closed. Before I ramble too much let me respond to a few of the assumptions people have made so far...

"Jets that serve no practical public function are inappropriate early in the morning." AND "personally i would like my tax money being sepnt on something more important than flying around looking neato." We fly all day and need to in order to get enough sorties up every day to fulfill training requirements. If you think that 4-ship was sent just to do a flyby and return you are mistaken. That was a routine training mission of 4 instructors that simply performed a memorial service before climbing on one of our Military Operations Areas (reserved airspace), likely Northwest of the city to practice dogfighting, intercepts or some other tactics. Were it not for the flyby those jets still would have flown their training sortie, and that training is very important. Fighter missions are complex and we must maintain proficiency so that when called upon at a time of war we remain effective.

"It is not only the noise, it is also dangerous for fighter jets to fly at low altitude over populated areas. Back in 1998, 20 people killed in the cable car accident when US fighter jets flew too low in Italy." OK let's not be too much of a drama queen here. A flyby poses very little threat if you had any idea the amount of planning that goes into making sure you are clear of obstacles on the ground. We train low level routinely and NEVER over populated areas, the only reason for this flyby was for the funeral. This was a one time event, I doubt that area ever had a low show from our jets before and they probably never will again. Give me a break. All the low levels we fly are in Military Training Routes over sparsely populated areas. Keep in mind (if you didn't already know) that the gondola in Italy was omitted from the tactical charts used for low level navigation. Someone was obviously not doing their job and it was a contributing factor.

"Let's reverse the role here. What about the AFB? Why doesn't the AFB place strict guidelines on fly-zones knowing full well that there are civilian building all around?" Obviously someone who knows NOTHING about aviation assuming the Air Force is a bunch of cowboys. We NEVER fly over Phoenix airspace simply because of the airline traffic, but regardless there are hundreds of restrictions. We can't fly low level over populated areas (in this case an exception was obviously made for the funeral). Think we don't have restrictions? Go learn about class A, B, C, D and E airspaces and the requirements for flying in each. Go look at FLIP general planning documents that define all of our low-level routes and read all the restricted overfly areas. What are they? Ranches, wildlife refuges, schools, you name it. Some noise and overflight restrictions are permanent and some temporary, but there are tons of them. Think we don't have restrictions? You do not know what you are talking about.

Another interesting point is that everyone who buys a house in Glendale, Peoria, Goodyear, Litchfield Park, Surprise, etc. must sign a notice before they purchase the home acknowledging that they are moving next to an active military installation that flys everyday. Luke is the largest fighter wing in the world. I love the idiots that move here knowing there are jets around and then act shocked when they hear them. I get stopped in uniform all the time and thanked by local residents so it must not be that bad. And those of you out there who think we are seriously a bunch of show-offs who show up an hour before the flight and just go have fun know nothing about what we do. They typical 1.0-1.5 hour sortie we fly starts briefing 2-3 hours before takeoff and will debrief until 2-3 hours after landing, sometimes more. Depending on the tactics being practiced we will spend an additional 1-10 hours planning things such as the route of flight, simulated attacks and contingency plans. The reason some sorties require less planning is because we do them often, but typically we put in 12 hour days to do something relatively dangerous to serve our country. Give us a little slack, chances are what you might think is showboating really is not. The days of buzzing towers and booming towns like you see in the movies are long gone. That's a good way to lose your wings in today's Air Force.

In closing, if you cannot respect the solemn intentions of four aviators to honor a fallen comerade I feel sorry for you. I guarantee no one in that formation was having fun doing that flyby, yet at the same time they were honored to be able to do so. If your life is so worry-free that some noise at 9:12 AM is too much for you to handle, you are lucky indeed. Maybe you should quit complaining and find something to be happy about, life is too short. God bless the USA.

Cheers,
Dart

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Dart

"It is not only the noise, it is also dangerous for fighter jets to fly at low altitude over populated areas. Back in 1998, 20 people killed in the cable car accident when US fighter jets flew too low in Italy." OK let's not be too much of a drama queen here. A flyby poses very little threat if you had any idea the amount of planning that goes into making sure you are clear of obstacles on the ground. We train low level routinely and NEVER over populated areas, the only reason for this flyby was for the funeral. This was a one time event, I doubt that area ever had a low show from our jets before and they probably never will again. Give me a break. All the low levels we fly are in Military Training Routes over sparsely populated areas. Keep in mind (if you didn't already know) that the gondola in Italy was omitted from the tactical charts used for low level navigation. Someone was obviously not doing their job and it was a contributing factor.

welcome to our little hell-hole here otherwise known as P&N. you make solid points overall but I don't think anyone is saying that people in the AF are a bunch of showboats - but chances are there are at least a few and occasionally people make poor decisions. in the case in italy i've heard reports that the pilot should not have been flying below 1000 feet but the cable he struck was at less than half this altitude. perhaps that gondola wasn't on the map but i guess this kind of error happening would be avoided if the pilot was flying at the correct altitude (and not flying faster than he should have been I have also heard). there has also been mention of the in-cockpit tapes having been erased. it sounds like to me that someone was being a "hotshot" and it was trying to be covered up. if it was one of your family members that was killed on that gondola i think you might reconsider your labeling of anyone who sees this as a serious issue as a "drama queen."

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: razor2025
wow... this thread's full of "patriotic" buddies who's shaming on the "cowardly bastard". I don't see how this verbal skirmish is "pwnage" in any sense. It's just a POed citizen who had been annoyed by jet noise far too long ( you'd think he spontaneously decided to write the letter right after that specific incident? I don't think so) and a officer informing the citizen that his conclusion was wrong. If any of you take it further than that, I think your head's in your own ass for too long. Does everyone in the world have to take trivial matter and make it a circus show now? Calm down people.

I hope his little hissy fit was a lesson: People can do without someone's cynical assumptions, especially in a situation like this.

That's the stupidest thing ever. How would that guy ever know before hand that the 4 plane fly-by was some kind of mourning? I've seen 4 plane formation on air-shows, does that mean they're mourning too? You can never ever estimate what other person knows. You should always assume that person is not informed as much as you are. Now, that's a good lesson.

oh he got owned big time. he put his foot square in his mouth. he complained about planes flying over in respect for a fallen comrade who had died in the line of duty.

lesson the drama-boy letter writer should've learned from this: things are not always as they seem, and stfu about such trivial things.

i agree, hopefully he saw the response and wrote an apology letter for being such a pompous ass.

 

[Tommunist]

on a slightly unrelated note i really despise the saying that anything has been "owned", "pwned", "al capowned" etc. unless it's done simply to make fun of those who say it. the only good thing about it is not as many people say "raped" anymore (which i was even less of a fan of). basically if i hear someone say "owned" and they aren't saying it in a joking way i can pretty much make a judgement right off the bat that they are a tool

 

[imported_Dart]

Good point Tommy let me clarify a bit. No one is a drama queen for being upset at the senseless loss of life due to an accident. I am not saying the guys in Italy did nothing wrong, far from that. My point is that there were several contributing factors, not all of which were the pilot's fault. That often does not make the news. I have trained with several Europeans, many of which say that low level flight down to 100' is routine in their countries (not that this was necessarily the case there). Here our limit is 500'. My point was that comparing that incident to the flyby near Luke IS being a drama queen. My mistake for not being articulate enough. Obstacles are well documented here in the states and the pilots are very familiar with that area. A flyby poses little threat even over a populated area. God forbid one of the jets had a problem (very unlikely flying straight and level at a moderate power setting) the first action would be to climb and head toward open land, which there is a lot of out here...

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Dart
By far the people making most sense on this thread are those who say this discussion is pointless because hopefully Mr. McRae would not have made an idiot out of himself if he knew the reason behind the flyby. I still feel compelled to write something though because it is amazing how a bunch of people who know NOTHING about the military or flying make assumptions about what we do. I am an F-16 pilot at Luke AFB saw his complaint along with the responses by two commanders on our base. I found a link to this thread from another website. To us it is a little insulting to say the least but I'm sure he did not know what the flyby was about. Does he have the right to complain? Sure he does, but that doesnt mean he was right to. Instead of writing a knee-jerk reaction to the paper, call the base. PA people are used to dealing with noise complaints and would have let him know what was going on and he could have avoided writing the letter. Case closed. Before I ramble too much let me respond to a few of the assumptions people have made so far...

"Jets that serve no practical public function are inappropriate early in the morning." AND "personally i would like my tax money being sepnt on something more important than flying around looking neato." We fly all day and need to in order to get enough sorties up every day to fulfill training requirements. If you think that 4-ship was sent just to do a flyby and return you are mistaken. That was a routine training mission of 4 instructors that simply performed a memorial service before climbing on one of our Military Operations Areas (reserved airspace), likely Northwest of the city to practice dogfighting, intercepts or some other tactics. Were it not for the flyby those jets still would have flown their training sortie, and that training is very important. Fighter missions are complex and we must maintain proficiency so that when called upon at a time of war we remain effective.

"It is not only the noise, it is also dangerous for fighter jets to fly at low altitude over populated areas. Back in 1998, 20 people killed in the cable car accident when US fighter jets flew too low in Italy." OK let's not be too much of a drama queen here. A flyby poses very little threat if you had any idea the amount of planning that goes into making sure you are clear of obstacles on the ground. We train low level routinely and NEVER over populated areas, the only reason for this flyby was for the funeral. This was a one time event, I doubt that area ever had a low show from our jets before and they probably never will again. Give me a break. All the low levels we fly are in Military Training Routes over sparsely populated areas. Keep in mind (if you didn't already know) that the gondola in Italy was omitted from the tactical charts used for low level navigation. Someone was obviously not doing their job and it was a contributing factor.

"Let's reverse the role here. What about the AFB? Why doesn't the AFB place strict guidelines on fly-zones knowing full well that there are civilian building all around?" Obviously someone who knows NOTHING about aviation assuming the Air Force is a bunch of cowboys. We NEVER fly over Phoenix airspace simply because of the airline traffic, but regardless there are hundreds of restrictions. We can't fly low level over populated areas (in this case an exception was obviously made for the funeral). Think we don't have restrictions? Go learn about class A, B, C, D and E airspaces and the requirements for flying in each. Go look at FLIP general planning documents that define all of our low-level routes and read all the restricted overfly areas. What are they? Ranches, wildlife refuges, schools, you name it. Some noise and overflight restrictions are permanent and some temporary, but there are tons of them. Think we don't have restrictions? You do not know what you are talking about.

Another interesting point is that everyone who buys a house in Glendale, Peoria, Goodyear, Litchfield Park, Surprise, etc. must sign a notice before they purchase the home acknowledging that they are moving next to an active military installation that flys everyday. Luke is the largest fighter wing in the world. I love the idiots that move here knowing there are jets around and then act shocked when they hear them. I get stopped in uniform all the time and thanked by local residents so it must not be that bad. And those of you out there who think we are seriously a bunch of show-offs who show up an hour before the flight and just go have fun know nothing about what we do. They typical 1.0-1.5 hour sortie we fly starts briefing 2-3 hours before takeoff and will debrief until 2-3 hours after landing, sometimes more. Depending on the tactics being practiced we will spend an additional 1-10 hours planning things such as the route of flight, simulated attacks and contingency plans. The reason some sorties require less planning is because we do them often, but typically we put in 12 hour days to do something relatively dangerous to serve our country. Give us a little slack, chances are what you might think is showboating really is not. The days of buzzing towers and booming towns like you see in the movies are long gone. That's a good way to lose your wings in today's Air Force.

In closing, if you cannot respect the solemn intentions of four aviators to honor a fallen comerade I feel sorry for you. I guarantee no one in that formation was having fun doing that flyby, yet at the same time they were honored to be able to do so. If your life is so worry-free that some noise at 9:12 AM is too much for you to handle, you are lucky indeed. Maybe you should quit complaining and find something to be happy about, life is too short. God bless the USA.

Cheers,
Dart

:thumbsup:

Well said... And thank you for your service.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Dart
Good point Tommy let me clarify a bit. No one is a drama queen for being upset at the senseless loss of life due to an accident. I am not saying the guys in Italy did nothing wrong, far from that. My point is that there were several contributing factors, not all of which were the pilot's fault. That often does not make the news. I have trained with several Europeans, many of which say that low level flight down to 100' is routine in their countries (not that this was necessarily the case there). Here our limit is 500'. My point was that comparing that incident to the flyby near Luke IS being a drama queen. My mistake for not being articulate enough. Obstacles are well documented here in the states and the pilots are very familiar with that area. A flyby poses little threat even over a populated area. God forbid one of the jets had a problem (very unlikely flying straight and level at a moderate power setting) the first action would be to climb and head toward open land, which there is a lot of out here...

i think the main point of bringing up the italy deal was the original guy in question was thinking the planes were pointlessly flying low over his house - a potentially dangerous thing to do depending on how low, fast, etc. (i guess he had no way of knowing). i don't think anyone is saying this guys loss of sleep is at all comparable to loss of life. i just think people are flipping out on this guy a little too much b/c as you said - he probably didn't know why the planes were there or what was going on (and for that matter if they were doing anything dangerous). the main thing he is guilty of is being foolish and not contacting the military base first to see if they had an explanation.

 

[OutHouse]

I dont remember hearing of any air force pilots being killed in iraq. when did that happen?

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Citrix
I dont remember hearing of any air force pilots being killed in iraq. when did that happen?

As the OP said, May 30 (Memorial Day).

Click here

EDIT, I'm not sure the link is working... it should take you to

www.militarycity.com/valor/888295

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Fsck that, the kid who gave his all serving the country is more deserving of that tribute than some tard getting his shut eye after 9 AM

He can get his tribute anytime, anywhere, and bother people who care to apprectiate him with the noise. I wouldn't want my funeral shoved down anybody's throat just like I wouldn't want my religion shoved down anybody's throat (if I were religious).

what a pisspoor analogy.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Fsck that, the kid who gave his all serving the country is more deserving of that tribute than some tard getting his shut eye after 9 AM

He can get his tribute anytime, anywhere, and bother people who care to apprectiate him with the noise. I wouldn't want my funeral shoved down anybody's throat just like I wouldn't want my religion shoved down anybody's throat (if I were religious).

what a pisspoor analogy.

Woman you sure take the cake on one-line responses.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Fsck that, the kid who gave his all serving the country is more deserving of that tribute than some tard getting his shut eye after 9 AM

He can get his tribute anytime, anywhere, and bother people who care to apprectiate him with the noise. I wouldn't want my funeral shoved down anybody's throat just like I wouldn't want my religion shoved down anybody's throat (if I were religious).

what a pisspoor analogy.

Woman you sure take the cake on one-line responses.

cake, where's my ?

conjur, bring me a cookie - boy!

 

[azazyel]

Hey Dart

First off thanks for all you do! Second so do you think the guy who complained is an American Hating Liberal? Just curious because it does seem like some people here jumped to that conclusion pretty early on.

 

[BBond]

Why did the officer who explained the fly-over wait until after the fact? Surely he could have communicated with the town as easily prior to the fly-over and avoided all of this acrimony. The military's lack of communication seems to have been designed to illicit just such a reaction and was used as an opportunity for just this type of response.

IMO, of course.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: BBond
Why did the officer who explained the fly-over wait until after the fact? Surely he could have communicated with the town as easily prior to the fly-over and avoided all of this acrimony. The military's lack of communication seems to have been designed to illicit just such a reaction and was used as an opportunity for just this type of response.

IMO, of course.

Maybe Rove was the mastermind behind it,,,, also.:shocked:

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: BBond
Why did the officer who explained the fly-over wait until after the fact? Surely he could have communicated with the town as easily prior to the fly-over and avoided all of this acrimony. The military's lack of communication seems to have been designed to illicit just such a reaction and was used as an opportunity for just this type of response.

IMO, of course.

Yeah, it's a big conspiracy :roll:

How perfectly unsurprising of you to blame the military. The town basically borders Luke AFB, you think they should call the mayor every time there's low flying jets?

Assuming the AF did (maybe it does) contact the city, is the city then supossed to mail flyers to everyone in town (and post big signs at the mall for those that live in neighboring towns) to let people know that 4 F-16s will fly by at 9:12am?

Whatever.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: BBond
Why did the officer who explained the fly-over wait until after the fact? Surely he could have communicated with the town as easily prior to the fly-over and avoided all of this acrimony. The military's lack of communication seems to have been designed to illicit just such a reaction and was used as an opportunity for just this type of response.

IMO, of course.

Yeah, it's a big conspiracy :roll:

How perfectly unsurprising of you to blame the military. The town basically borders Luke AFB, you think they should call the mayor every time there's low flying jets?

Assuming the AF did (maybe it does) contact the city, is the city then supossed to mail flyers to everyone in town (and post big signs at the mall for those that live in neighboring towns) to let people know that 4 F-16s will fly by at 9:12am?

Whatever.

A little communication can prevent big problems. If they did contact the town perhaps the town could have a notice in the local paper. Or on the radio. Or on TV. There's just no excuse in this day and age for not communicating.

This wasn't just a happenstance. They knew the time of the fly over and could easily have avoided acrimony. They CHOSE not to. That makes it their problem. If they had notified I'd be on their side. But they didn't even bother.

The officer who responded found the time after the fact. Why didn't he take a few minutes before the fact and avoid all of the BS?

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: BBond
Why did the officer who explained the fly-over wait until after the fact? Surely he could have communicated with the town as easily prior to the fly-over and avoided all of this acrimony. The military's lack of communication seems to have been designed to illicit just such a reaction and was used as an opportunity for just this type of response.

IMO, of course.

Yeah, it's a big conspiracy :roll:

How perfectly unsurprising of you to blame the military. The town basically borders Luke AFB, you think they should call the mayor every time there's low flying jets?

Assuming the AF did (maybe it does) contact the city, is the city then supossed to mail flyers to everyone in town (and post big signs at the mall for those that live in neighboring towns) to let people know that 4 F-16s will fly by at 9:12am?

Whatever.

A little communication can prevent big problems. If they did contact the town perhaps the town could have a notice in the local paper. Or on the radio. Or on TV. There's just no excuse in this day and age for not communicating.

This wasn't just a happenstance. They knew the time of the fly over and could easily have avoided acrimony. They CHOSE not to. That makes it their problem. If they had notified I'd be on their side. But they didn't even bother.

The officer who responded found the time after the fact. Why didn't he take a few minutes before the fact and avoid all of the BS?

Probably because he has a job to do and that's what the PA people at Luke are for.

You're a little uppity that the commander made the complainer look stupid, but they guy was stupid for writing the damn newspaper with a half-cocked, sarcastic piece of trash.

 

[BBond]

The commander had enough time to write the paper after the fact but he didn't have enough time to pick up the phone?

BS.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: BBond
The commander had enough time to write the paper after the fact but he didn't have enough time to pick up the phone?

BS.

Really? They guy wrote a letter that hundreds of thousands of readers across the state will read. I find it entirely appropraite the commander set the record straight.

 

[BBond]

Pick up the damn phone and there wouldn't be any record to set straight.

Just plain laziness on the part of the base commander.