A Real War Hero Shreds McCain On National Security

[Bitek]

I can't see how you can say McCain isn't a war hero. Is Clark one too? Maybe, but a differnt type than McCain. It is entirely fair to question how being locked up in a cage for several years qualifies you to be CIC tho. My cousin got blown up in an IED in Iraq and spent a few months in Walter Reed. A hero yes, qualified to be president, sry but no way. As far as CIC goes, Clark is prolly more qualified than McCain as his training is far more relevant to the needs of a CIC, while being a POW 40 yrs ago has little to do w/ CIC.


I do laugh tho at the righty-tighties screaming moral compass and getting bent about Swiftboat remarks about McCain when the Right had no problem doing it to Kerry and Cleland. Payback's a bitch. I'm just waiting for the discussion of McCain's PTSD, flashbacks, and uncontrolled anger and how that's potentially dangerous for a guy w/ his hand on the red button.

 

[jpeyton]

Clark isn't attacking McCain's service. He's attacking the fact that McCain used his service as some kind of national security trump card, which it clearly isn't.

People who are scoring McCain higher on the basis of national security aren't making their analysis based on his real-world experience or the last few years of N.I.E. reports on the effectiveness of the foreign policy that McCain advocates.

 

[ranmaniac]

Sadly, war heroes/veterans haven't fared too well in Presidential elections, ask Bob Dole or John Kerry.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Anyone the puts themselves in harms way so others have the ability to bitch and moan about the sevice personel doing their jobs should be classifeid as a hero.

😕
Anyone who put themselves in harm's way for that reason should have their head examined.





"Supporting and defending the Constitution of The United States"---there's a good reason.
:thumbsup:

What do you define freedom to be. One is the ability to state your thoughts without fear of reprecussion.

People have died to protect for you that ability. They have put themselves in harm way. And some people can not appreciate it or refuse to

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Clark isn't attacking McCain's service. He's attacking the fact that McCain used his service as some kind of national security trump card, which it clearly isn't.

People who are scoring McCain higher on the basis of national security aren't making their analysis based on his real-world experience or the last few years of N.I.E. reports on the effectiveness of the foreign policy that McCain advocates.

McCain was a pilot who graduated at the bottom of his class, lost several planes during service, survived a POW camp and returned to America a "war hero" with a promising political future. Wesley Clark graduated Valedictorian at West Point, was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, also served in Vietnam, spent over three decades in the military ascending to the rank of four-star General and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

McCain's "war hero" status was undeserved and tossed around like a cheap decoration. He's a career politician who cashed in the few honest chips he earned during his career to ride the party line to a nomination and a chance at the Presidency.

You are the one that is attacking McCain and praising Clark based on their service and rank.
Yet McCain was on the front lines and Clark was a REMF.
You imply that Clark should be branded a hero and not McCain. Flawed logic

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There's plenty to criticize McCain for, his service isn't one of them.

I agree.

Most rational thing I've seen you post lately.

 

[Woofmeister]

My vote for the most disgraceful thread of 2008 is already in. Congratulations OP.

Oh and to General Wesley Clark, shame on you. You know damn well that McCain craps bigger than you.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
My vote for the most disgraceful thread of 2008 is already in. Congratulations OP.

Oh and to General Wesley Clark, shame on you. You know damn well that McCain craps bigger than you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I don't think this is anywhere near the most disgraceful thread of 2008 and we probably ain't seen nothing yet, good ole woof may have unwittingly summed up both this thread and some of the McCain candidacy with his last sentence.

Somehow its hard to get my arms around the concept of believing the man who craps biggest.

 

[Mail5398]

Wesley Clark really is a sore loser isn't he.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
John McCain

And I wholly agree. Clark agrees that Obama is also untested in regards to national security, but with one clear difference: Obama has never run his campaign on that message, while McCain has and continues to do so undeservedly.

McCain was a pilot who graduated at the bottom of his class, lost several planes during service, survived a POW camp and returned to America a "war hero" with a promising political future. Wesley Clark graduated Valedictorian at West Point, was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, also served in Vietnam, spent over three decades in the military ascending to the rank of four-star General and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

McCain's "war hero" status was undeserved and tossed around like a cheap decoration. He's a career politician who cashed in the few honest chips he earned during his career to ride the party line to a nomination and a chance at the Presidency.

I think Clark's opinion on the McCains forgein policy credentials is pretty valid, however I also feel that McCain is justfied in earnign the title "war hero." Class rank in academics is hardly a predictor of future success in many endeavors, look at Bill Gates.

Go watch the movie "Hanoi Hilton" to learn what McCain and other POWs went through. Are you aware of the fact that when the Vietnamese learned that McCain's father was PACCOM commander he was offered freedom and turned it down? He spent several years undergoing absolute aborhent conditions that yourself and I could not even begin to imagine. He demonstrated considerable bravery on many occassions throughout the Vietnam war. He was awarded the Silver Star, which is 3nd highest decoration you can possibly be awarded. I don't feel in anyway that he didn't earn the right to be called a 'war hero' and I guarantee that if Dems think they can "swift-boat" John McCain it is going to backfire in a bad way.

 

[sammyunltd]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: jpeyton
John McCain

And I wholly agree. Clark agrees that Obama is also untested in regards to national security, but with one clear difference: Obama has never run his campaign on that message, while McCain has and continues to do so undeservedly.

McCain was a pilot who graduated at the bottom of his class, lost several planes during service, survived a POW camp and returned to America a "war hero" with a promising political future. Wesley Clark graduated Valedictorian at West Point, was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, also served in Vietnam, spent over three decades in the military ascending to the rank of four-star General and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

McCain's "war hero" status was undeserved and tossed around like a cheap decoration. He's a career politician who cashed in the few honest chips he earned during his career to ride the party line to a nomination and a chance at the Presidency.

I think Clark's opinion on the McCains forgein policy credentials is pretty valid, however I also feel that McCain is justfied in earnign the title "war hero." Class rank in academics is hardly a predictor of future success in many endeavors, look at Bill Gates.

Go watch the movie "Hanoi Hilton" to learn what McCain and other POWs went through. Are you aware of the fact that when the Vietnamese learned that McCain's father was PACCOM commander he was offered freedom and turned it down? He spent several years undergoing absolute aborrhent conditions that yourself and I could not even begin to imagine. He demonstrated considerable bravery on many occassions throughout the Vietnam war, so I don't feel in anyway that he didn't earn the right to be called a 'war hero.' However, I also do not think that title alone gives him all the experience he needs to be President.

Blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean he gets to have a free pass for being as incompetent as he is...

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: sammyunltd

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: jpeyton
John McCain

And I wholly agree. Clark agrees that Obama is also untested in regards to national security, but with one clear difference: Obama has never run his campaign on that message, while McCain has and continues to do so undeservedly.

McCain was a pilot who graduated at the bottom of his class, lost several planes during service, survived a POW camp and returned to America a "war hero" with a promising political future. Wesley Clark graduated Valedictorian at West Point, was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, also served in Vietnam, spent over three decades in the military ascending to the rank of four-star General and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

McCain's "war hero" status was undeserved and tossed around like a cheap decoration. He's a career politician who cashed in the few honest chips he earned during his career to ride the party line to a nomination and a chance at the Presidency.

I think Clark's opinion on the McCains forgein policy credentials is pretty valid, however I also feel that McCain is justfied in earnign the title "war hero." Class rank in academics is hardly a predictor of future success in many endeavors, look at Bill Gates.

Go watch the movie "Hanoi Hilton" to learn what McCain and other POWs went through. Are you aware of the fact that when the Vietnamese learned that McCain's father was PACCOM commander he was offered freedom and turned it down? He spent several years undergoing absolute aborrhent conditions that yourself and I could not even begin to imagine. He demonstrated considerable bravery on many occassions throughout the Vietnam war, so I don't feel in anyway that he didn't earn the right to be called a 'war hero.' However, I also do not think that title alone gives him all the experience he needs to be President.

Blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean he gets to have a free pass for being as incompetent as he is...

Did I say anything about giving him a free pass? Read my first paragraph. I am merely stating that he earned the right to be called a war hero, and anyone stating otherwise is just being blatently partisan. McCain's military record is extremely impressive, even if he had not been a POW for 5.5 years. Academy graduation rank means almost nothing, hell even Patton had to repeat a year at West Point.

 

[Lemon law]

Carmen813, I can understand that its your considered opinion that McCain is a war hero, but please also understand that many do not think McCain's Vietnam war record rises to the hero level. It very much depends on how a given person defines what a hero is..

But in terms of serving his country and suffering for it, McCain has paid greater dues than most. But not the heaviest dues by any means, because others have suffered even more than McCain. But suffering does not equal heroism because they are totally different qualities.

Having said that, what a given person's definition of military heroism is has almost nothing to do with partisanship. And as someone who has waded through this entire thread and having made both positive and negative comments about McCain, I can somewhat say no one has denigrated McCain for serving his country or minimized the sacrifices he made. And even if a person decides that McCain is indeed their definition of a military hero, they still might not vote for him because they don't like other parts of McCains record. And for that matter someone may decide that McCain does not meet their definition of a hero but they will still end up voting for him because they like other parts of his record better than the positions taken by Obama.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Buttbean
McCain was dying and the Vietnamese wanted to let him go home. McCain chose to stay with his men.

It makes one wonder why McCain, after enduring the same kind of treatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese, would condone our own country doing the same thing.

Because it's not him being tortured this time.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Because it's not him being tortured this time.

My friends, this is why I think McCain is an extraordinary douche bag.

Over the course of this campaign, I expect McCain to sell more flip-flops to the American people than Old Navy.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Sadly, actions like that would have totally doomed any chances McCain had of getting to where he is now which is the Presidential nominee apparent of the GOP. And if McCain can win the general election, he can be his own man and finally call the shots as the titular head of the GOP.

Torture is the one issue he absolutely should have some conviction, his stance switched in the opposite direction you describe.

As of the pre-primary GOP debates, he was still going after Romney on torture. It wasn't until after Super Tuesday and John McCain's wrapping up of the nominiation that he changed his mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deVf_fTSDP8

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: JS80

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

What did John McCain say in September 2002?

 

[b0mbrman]

OP: I don't think there's a lot to be gained by attacking John McCain's military record and certainly, a lot to lose.

You underestimate the special regard given to MIA/POWs by those of us who are veterans. One need only look at the sanctity with which the tomb of the unknown soldier is revered, or the attention paid within military circles to Matt Maupin to start to understand.

The Obama campaign doesn't go anywhere near McCain's military record except to say, "We respect Senator McCain's service, but disagree with his current stance on _____." In other words, there's plenty about McCain that could serve as fodder for debate. His service (of the military sort, prior to 1981) doesn't need to be one of them.

I suggest you follow their lead.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Carmen813, I can understand that its your considered opinion that McCain is a war hero, but please also understand that many do not think McCain's Vietnam war record rises to the hero level. It very much depends on how a given person defines what a hero is..

But in terms of serving his country and suffering for it, McCain has paid greater dues than most. But not the heaviest dues by any means, because others have suffered even more than McCain. But suffering does not equal heroism because they are totally different qualities.

Having said that, what a given person's definition of military heroism is has almost nothing to do with partisanship. And as someone who has waded through this entire thread and having made both positive and negative comments about McCain, I can somewhat say no one has denigrated McCain for serving his country or minimized the sacrifices he made. And even if a person decides that McCain is indeed their definition of a military hero, they still might not vote for him because they don't like other parts of McCains record. And for that matter someone may decide that McCain does not meet their definition of a hero but they will still end up voting for him because they like other parts of his record better than the positions taken by Obama.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make, I believe his service to the U.S. goes above and beyond what most citizens of this country have done. I don't agree with him on damn near any policy though, so I won't be voting for him.

When I was in ROTC nearly every single official function I was at held a special ceremony for POW/MIAs. They are revered in the military for the extraordinary sacrifices they went through which are often above and beyond what the average soldier experiences. Anyway I think Dems are going to make a tremendous mistake if they attempt to swift-boat McCain, let's just stick to policy and why his won't work.

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Carmen813, I can understand that its your considered opinion that McCain is a war hero, but please also understand that many do not think McCain's Vietnam war record rises to the hero level. It very much depends on how a given person defines what a hero is..

But in terms of serving his country and suffering for it, McCain has paid greater dues than most. But not the heaviest dues by any means, because others have suffered even more than McCain. But suffering does not equal heroism because they are totally different qualities.

Having said that, what a given person's definition of military heroism is has almost nothing to do with partisanship. And as someone who has waded through this entire thread and having made both positive and negative comments about McCain, I can somewhat say no one has denigrated McCain for serving his country or minimized the sacrifices he made. And even if a person decides that McCain is indeed their definition of a military hero, they still might not vote for him because they don't like other parts of McCains record. And for that matter someone may decide that McCain does not meet their definition of a hero but they will still end up voting for him because they like other parts of his record better than the positions taken by Obama.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make, I believe his service to the U.S. goes above and beyond what most citizens of this country have done. I don't agree with him on damn near any policy though, so I won't be voting for him.

When I was in ROTC nearly every single official function I was at held a special ceremony for POW/MIAs. They are revered in the military for the extraordinary sacrifices they went through which are often above and beyond what the average soldier experiences. Anyway I think Dems are going to make a tremendous mistake if they attempt to swift-boat McCain, let's just stick to policy and why his won't work.

Agreed. Swiftboating people's service record is scumbag behavior (unless they were dodging it like Bush & Cheney). Republicans may revel in it, but Dems should be better than that and it only does long term damage to the party even if it wins the immediate election.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
McCain's "war hero" status was undeserved and tossed around like a cheap decoration.

Just when I think jpeyton cant get any lower, he throws out something like this.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: jpeyton
McCain's "war hero" status was undeserved and tossed around like a cheap decoration.

Just when I think jpeyton cant get any lower, he throws out something like this.

He openely hates the military. What do you expect from a radical like him? 😕

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Wow, there's some pretty disgraceful stuff being said about McCain purely for cheap partisan brownie points.

The lengths some of you hackneyed tools will go to in discussing an issue... it's like you just can't help yourselves, even though this sort of brainlessness does far more harm than good for your supposed cause within the general population.

Politics has a devilish way of turning people into shameless zealots.

Yeah it reminds me of the bullshit said about Kerry back in 04.

This is about the only good thing I found to take away from reading this thread.

On that note, I will toss in that I feel McCain is heavily overselling his past experience as far as how much of an asset it will really be if he were to become president. Experience is great but it is what you have come to learn from that experience and how you will use it in your future decisions which is what really counts and I don't feel he is using it wisely at all in this campaign. It feels more like he is using it as a weapon which only works because his opponent happens to be on the younger side for presidential candidates on average. To me, that's all fluff and I dislike how dirty it feels to watch it being used in such a way. It's familiar in that really bad way.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: kage69

I might have missed it, but how is Wesley Clark a war hero? For getting shot?

Yes, you missed it. Unlike some politicians and ex-military who pimp their service despite being largely insulated from warfare, Clark actually led men into combat and has the scars to prove it. You should read up on his time in Vietnam. I think his actions in Bosnia speak pretty well for him. I forget which road it was on, but when he was running things during that particular conflict he was in transit to some base and the vehicle in front of his touched off a land-mine. It was a mess, but Gen Clark was the the first one on scene to begin evac'ing the wounded, caring more about getting his soldiers help than wondering where the next mine was.

Quite a difference from the GWB look of confusion and helplessness he wore for 10min after being told planes were hitting the towers - to say nothing of the vast rift in service between the two men.

Wes Clark would be a great choice for Obama. And for the record, even though I (still) respect McCain, Clark is 100% correct in his observations. :thumbsup:

I am not familiar with Clark's combat service in Vietnam (ok, more now that I read some), but his command over Operation Allied Force was hardly without controversy. I have not spoken to another member of the military about General Clark without hearing criticism, especially from those who were under his command during that time. After action reports showed how ineffective the air campaign really was and how political restrictions hamstrung our operations to a great degree (and made our pilots more vulnerable). Gen Clark was responsible for at least some of that mess and is responsible for not doing more to improve the situation.

 

[Lemon law]

The very point being made is the unfounded hypothesis that jpeyton, Wesley Clark, or anyone else on this thread is swift boating McCain by questioning his hero status or military judgment.

Only a few very partisan supporters of McCain seem to be the only posters making the case that questioning McCain hero status or judgment becomes a sacrilege against some sort of a totally sacred cow.

And its even harder to make the case that Wes Clark is anti military when he spent the bulk of his life in a military career where he achieved the status of high command rank.

But for the record, what may be missing on this thread is any comments of the overall military record of Wes Clark. Who, IMHO, has some real downside brainfarts to go along with some very positive accomplishments. And maybe the message to take away from this thread is that neither McCain or Clark are perfect human beings and its the duty of the American people to judge only McCain and Obama at the ballot box. Everyone else may feel free to piss on me, jpeyton, Clark, or virtually any other poster on this forum, but when it comes to the ballot box, you can't punish us because we are not running for President.