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A Real War Hero Shreds McCain On National Security
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Cold Steel
Member
Hadn't thought of that. You may be right.
Lemon law
Lifer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Wesley Clark can claim to be a war hero because he had overall command of a large military force that accomplished its mission. General Eisenhower was in similar charge during WW2 and never had to dodge a single bullet fired in anger at him.
McCain never commanded anything much bigger than the very plane he was flying and can't have flown that well because he got shot down on his 23'rd mission.
Many other pilots during Vietnam flew similar planes, and completed 100's of missions without getting shot down. McCain's contribution to the overall mission in Vietnam
was minuscule at best.
No one questions the fact that McCain served in the military during Vietnam, but there is almost nothing in the McCain record to suggest his service elevates him head and shoulders above hundreds of thousands of his fellow service members who also served in Vietnam. Or even anything to suggest he was in anyway much elevated from hundreds of fellow pilots shot down during the Vietnam war.
And when McCain seems to show he learned exactly nothing from a US loss in Vietnam, its not a matter of questioning his patriotism, its a matter of questioning McCain's brains. Because McCain seems to advocate the very strategies that failed us in Vietnam.
freneticjinx
Banned
I don't think commanding a large military force makes one a hero... but I agree that McCain doesn't seem like much of a war hero either.
I'm not voting for him, but John McCain survived five and 1/2 years of unspeakable torture and incarceration with compelling personal honor and dignity.
I cannot and will not dismiss this with a partisan sneer, and personally detest those twerps who do.
Please find your moral compass, OP 🙁 :|
I cannot and will not dismiss this with a partisan sneer, and personally detest those twerps who do.
Please find your moral compass, OP 🙁 :|
trenchfoot
Lifer
In situations such as, where i get called out to answer to a question that is so obvious from an OBJECTIVE point of view, i usually don't reply as i always try to look at an issue that way, and i will respond when i feel objectivity is being maintained.
Lemon Law's response to my post however, is an excellent example of being considerate, objective and thoughtful. That response caused me to modify my orginal opinion about the topic as what he posted was reasonable and made perfect sense.
However, my modified opinion still includes the FACT that McCain sold out his principles to appease the hard right on certain issues. Lemon Law pointed out that McCain had no other course of action if he wanted to stay in good grace with his party, and i wholeheartedly agree with him.
As for the above bolded text; in adherance to my aforementioned policy on responding to asinine commentary, here is my reply: "___________________".:beer:
Originally posted by: tweaker2
In situations such as, where i get called out to answer to a question that is so obvious from an OBJECTIVE point of view, i usually don't reply as i always try to look at an issue that way, and i will respond when i feel objectivity is being maintained.
Lemon Law's response to my post however, is an excellent example of being considerate, objective and thoughtful. That response caused me to modify my orginal opinion about the topic as what he posted was reasonable and made perfect sense.
However, my modified opinion still includes the FACT that McCain sold out his principles to appease the hard right on certain issues. Lemon Law pointed out that McCain had no other course of action if he wanted to stay in good grace with his party, and i wholeheartedly agree with him.
As for the above bolded text; in adherance to my aforementioned policy on responding to asinine commentary, here is my reply: "___________________".:beer:
I didn't want to do this, but you've brought it on yourself. you have nobody to blame but yourself for this. Don't try to blame anyone like McCain, the OP or Elmer Fudd, this has been your own doing:
To you I say "____________________________________________________________"!:wine::gift:
shiner
Lifer
I have an uncle who was shot down over Vietnam, he flew reconnaissance, and was captured and spent nearly 2 years as a POW. He was beaten daily, starved for days, etc, etc, etc....
For you to say that someone who went through that is not a war hero is despicable. If you were in that situation you would have been crying like a bitch within 30 seconds. I have a feeling that a piece of shit like you would also roll over on his fellow prisoners and countrymen in about 10 minutes. In contrast read this:
On September 9, 1965, James Stockdale catapulted his A-4 Skyraider off the flight deck of the U.S.S. Oriskany on what turned out to be his final mission over North Vietnam. Approaching his target, his plane was riddled with anti-aircraft fire. Within seconds, his engine was aflame and all hydraulic control was gone. He "punched out," watching his plane slam into a rice paddy and explode in a fireball. Stockdale himself best describes what happened next:
"As I ejected from the plane I broke a bone in my back, but that was only the beginning. I landed in the streets of a small village. A thundering herd was coming down on me. They were going to defend the honor of their town. It was the quarterback sack of the century." They tore off his clothes and beat him mercilessly. Stockdale suffered a broken leg and paralyzed arm before a military policeman took him into custody. He was now a prisoner of war, the highest ranking naval officer to be held as a POW in Vietnam.
Stockdale wound up in Hoa Lo Prison - the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" -- where he spent the next seven years under unimaginably brutal conditions. He was physically tortured no fewer than 15 times. Techniques included beatings, whippings, and near-asphyxiation with ropes. Mental torture was incessant. He was kept in solitary confinement, in total darkness, for four years, chained in heavy, abrasive leg irons for two years, malnourished due to a starvation diet, denied medical care, and deprived of letters from home in violation of the Geneva Convention.
Through it all, Stockdale's captors held out the promise of better treatment if he would only admit that the United States was engaging in criminal behavior against the Vietnamese people, but Stockdale refused. Drawing strength from principles of stoic philosophy, Stockdale heroically resisted. His courage was an inspiration to his fellow POWs, with whom he communicated in an ingenious code, maintiang unit cohesion and morale. His jailers increased the level of torture, so Stockdale determined to fight back in the only way he could.
Told that he was to be taken "downtown" and paraded in front of foreign journalists, Stockdale slashed his scalp with a razor and beat himself in the face with a wooden stool. He reasoned that his captors would not dare display a prisoner who appeared to have been beaten. When he learned that his fellow prisoners prisoners were dying under torture, he slashed his wrists to show their captors that he preferred death to submission. Stockdale literally gambled with his life, and won.
Convinced of Stockdale's determination to die rather than cooperate, the Communists ceased trying to extract bogus "confessions" from him. The torture of American prisoners ended, and treatment of all American POWs improved. Upon his release in 1973, Stockdale's extraordinary heroism became widely known, and he received the Congressional Medal of Honor in the nation's bicentennial year. He was one of the most highly decorated officers in the history of the Navy, with 26 personal combat decorations, including four Silver Star medals in addition to the Medal of Honor.
trenchfoot
Lifer
Originally posted by: Duwelon
Originally posted by: tweaker2
In situations such as, where i get called out to answer to a question that is so obvious from an OBJECTIVE point of view, i usually don't reply as i always try to look at an issue that way, and i will respond when i feel objectivity is being maintained.
Lemon Law's response to my post however, is an excellent example of being considerate, objective and thoughtful. That response caused me to modify my orginal opinion about the topic as what he posted was reasonable and made perfect sense.
However, my modified opinion still includes the FACT that McCain sold out his principles to appease the hard right on certain issues. Lemon Law pointed out that McCain had no other course of action if he wanted to stay in good grace with his party, and i wholeheartedly agree with him.
As for the above bolded text; in adherance to my aforementioned policy on responding to asinine commentary, here is my reply: "___________________".:beer:
I didn't want to do this, but you've brought it on yourself. you have nobody to blame but yourself for this. Don't try to blame anyone like McCain, the OP or Elmer Fudd, this has been your own doing:
To you I say "____________________________________________________________"!:wine::gift:
Ok, Ok, i just HAD to respond to this one policy or no policy.
Thank you for making me laugh. Now I understand what the purpose was for your first response to me, and i apologize. Thanks again. You're A-OK. lol. Nuff said.
Butterbean
Banned
McCain was dying and the Vietnamese wanted to let him go home. McCain chose to stay with his men. To say Wesley Clark trumps McCain because he had better grades is another reason to suspect this forum is the most dysfunctional one around. Oh and McClellan had better class standing than Grant. What a stupid measure of leadership.
If the election comes down to National Security swing votes, Obama will lose. I prefer Obama's foreign policy positions, but the reality is an undecided voter making a gut check on who they trust more in charge of the military will lean towards McCain more often than not, regardless of what Clark says.
The best tack, politically speaking, is to say "I respect McCain's service" and then change the topic to the economy.
Debating McCain's executive experience respectfully like Clark does in that clip gives a larger time share to the issue, which is going to offset any points he scores. Denigrating the heroic nature of McCain's actions in Vietnam, as in the OP (not mirrored by any of Clark's statements) would be a stupid, counterproductive move for any major political player. "Swiftboating" will generally yield net votes for Republicans because it appeals to their base, and that base will view such attacks as truthful or slanderous depending on what they want to hear, IMO.
The best tack, politically speaking, is to say "I respect McCain's service" and then change the topic to the economy.
Debating McCain's executive experience respectfully like Clark does in that clip gives a larger time share to the issue, which is going to offset any points he scores. Denigrating the heroic nature of McCain's actions in Vietnam, as in the OP (not mirrored by any of Clark's statements) would be a stupid, counterproductive move for any major political player. "Swiftboating" will generally yield net votes for Republicans because it appeals to their base, and that base will view such attacks as truthful or slanderous depending on what they want to hear, IMO.
miketheidiot
Lifer
quoted for fucking truth
if he is not asked to one of the major roles (vp, secdef, secstate), the allow me to give a preemptive *facepalm*
miketheidiot
Lifer
the best of mccains abilities was crashing a bunch of planes, his high marks come from not being used as a political tool.
miketheidiot
Lifer
i thought this thread was about mccain being a douche?
Butterbean
Banned
Because it wasn't the same thing. Being hung from the ceiling to break shoulders is not the same as being made to stand for 4 hours. Of course the only reason some people care so much is because they sense the vermin in Cuba are their spiritual brothers.
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