A Muslim's perspective

[Orignal Earl]

So you are saying Muslims need to spill more blood?

If you were following the thread, I was asking FTM if that's what he thought 😉

 

[Orignal Earl]

I want to hear these words by out spoken muslims:

"To support the attacks of 9/11 is to go against the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and upon us all. To wage war against America means waging war against true Islam. Jihad is the spiritual battle of faith in maintaining oneself spiritually and not bringing physical attacks to others. To use terror to incite change is to lose Jihad and become an infidel. We stand together in America as Islam, Jews, Christians, and others as one. We are all the seed of Abraham, let there be peace."

Btw
These words sound incredibly ironic from someone who just claimed to have been involved in the invasion of Iraq and also claims to be a Christian.

 

[FTM0305]

So you are building a temple in Rome, not in Vatican City like you said.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence

My point though was that the Mormons fought a very long and bloody battle to get where they are today.

Wow, you are just here to argue aren't you?

You think the Vatican has no influence in the region around it? I wonder how long a mormon temple would last just seven miles from Mecca.

Maybe the mosque near ground zero should consider a location at least that far.

So i like how to just glanced over the line in what you quoted "no battles occurred between the contending military forces", but then pull a random article about a massacre that didn't take place as part of the supposed "Utah War", which ended without physical conflict.

Did you even read the part where one of the US Army leaders talked with Young without escort?

(Van Vliet told Young that he believed that the Mormons "have been lied about the worst of any people I ever saw.")

Plus, Wikipedia is hardly a place to do fact checking if at all. great for easy reference, but not facts.

The mormon church has been around since 1830. Islam has been around a lot longer than that, yet our "violent" period is far over.

Islam has no excuse for its extreme sects, and the irresponsibility of its moderates.

You have no argument to the contrary.

 

[FTM0305]

Btw
These words sound incredibly ironic from someone who just claimed to have been involved in the invasion of Iraq and also claims to be a Christian.

Iraqi's love us. They are the kindest people I have ever met. Its no invasion it was a liberation of the tyrannical run of a mad man (Saddam Hussein).

Its true we were there for too long, but don't tell me that we were unwelcomed.

I know for myself that we helped those people. Bakubah was the declared capital of Al Qeda in Iraq at that time. My unit blew most of them to kingdom come and liberated the city and supplied them with goods to ease recovery, detonated IED's left by Al Qeda supporters, and helped them root out lingering cells.

There are nothing ironic about my words.

You are just a person arguing for the escalation of violence. Even if you guise it in the form of jokes and emoticons.

You are the moderate type that winks and smiles that most americans just don't trust.

You obviously have no PR skill.

 

[nobodyknows]

So you are building a temple in Rome, not in Vatican City like you said.


My point though was that the Mormons fought a very long and bloody battle to get where they are today.

Do you think it might even be called a crusade?

You are so silly in your denial, it's quite entertaining though, please carry on.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Wow, you are just here to argue aren't you?

Um..lol?

You think the Vatican has no influence in the region around it? I wonder how long a mormon temple would last just seven miles from Mecca.

Look, you said you were building a Mormon Temple inside Vatican City.
I said I find that hard to believe.
You then pointed out that you were not building a Temple inside VC but in Rome.
That's all there is to it.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Iraqi's love us. They are the kindest people I have ever met. Its no invasion it was a liberation of the tyrannical run of a mad man (Saddam Hussein).

Its true we were there for too long, but don't tell me that we were unwelcomed.

I know for myself that we helped those people. Bakubah was the declared capital of Al Qeda in Iraq at that time. My unit blew most of them to kingdom come and liberated the city and supplied them with goods to ease recovery, detonated IED's left by Al Qeda supporters, and helped them root out lingering cells.

I'm glad you came out with the feeling that you helped those people.
Did you know there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion?

There are nothing ironic about my words.

Do you think Jesus would of approved of the invasion of Iraq?
I'm pretty sure a true Christian would have to say no.

You are just a person arguing for the escalation of violence. Even if you guise it in the form of jokes and emoticons.

You are the moderate type that winks and smiles that most americans just don't trust.

You obviously have no PR skill.

Where am I arguing for the escalation of violence?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Do you think it might even be called a crusade?

You are so silly in your denial, it's quite entertaining though, please carry on.

The Mormons are building a temple in Rome.
OMG!!! Their crusade is complete and they have built their victory Temple.

Sound familiar?

 

[PJABBER]

Orignal Earl doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Orignal Earl doth protest too much, methinks.

lol

 

[routan]

Btw for the temple

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Italy_Temple

Technically just about 7 miles from Vatican center. Some Catholics are upset about it, but most are accepting, as many Catholic clergy have come forward to make fair comparisons (like the Catholic buildings in Salt Lake City).



Its funny you bring up the standing army Mormons had and the Oath of Vengeance in the same breath as they are completely unrelated. The Oath of Vengeance was in reference to God's vengeance (not man's) to the members of the Mob that assassinated Joseph Smith, (the church's first prophet who claimed to have spoke to God and the resurrected Jesus Christ face to face and that through their guidance translated the Book of Mormon and re-established the Church of Jesus Christ) and his brother Hyrum Smith. These oaths were a verbal prayer asking for God for justice. they stopped in the 1920's (pretty sure all the members of the mob were probably dead by natural causes by then.)

The standing army the church raised had to do with Utah not being a territory of the US at the time. No battle between the US and the "mormon army" was ever fought. All conflicts were negotiated, because mormon's wanted peace nothing more.

Of course any mormon anti you'd like to try to use to tare down my points of comparison I can easily handle. I know the in and outs of my religion.

--------------------

@Routon


Of any Church that believes that Christ is the savior and son of God, believe that he created the heavens and the earth, or in other worlds, of any Christian Church, Mormonism has the most similarities to Islam in regards to principles of the importance of tradition, family, and sacrifice?

I remember a man that converted from Islam to mormonism in my youth in California. He stated that it was easy for him to become "mormon" but harder for him to finally accept Christ as part of being a true Christian.

In many respects the only difference between mormons and muslims is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I was in the Military I briefly served with 5-20 Infantry Divison, 3rd SBCT (Stryker Brigade Combat Team), 2nd ID. Joining them at the tail end of the tour as part of George Bush's big numbers push in the tail end of 2007. I joined the unit for the last three months of their tour (lucky me). Our translator was a Turk, he was muslim and highly respected (mostly for being turk) by locals in Bakubah, Iraq. One night in the tent/barrack some of the guys gave him a hard time about going on about a girl he fell in love with before the war started in 2001. They were teenagers, but he believed that he would find her after he would go home and marry her. because of his belief in marriage and only wanting to be with one woman he was made fun of by some of the soldiers in my unit. I stuck up for him in the conversation. My beliefs as a mormon rely heavily on the belief in the sanctity of marriage.

Later on he would translate for me when our squad stayed overnight in the home of a local family. I repaired a farming tool with extra 550 cord I brought with me. On the handle I wrote an Arabic phrase which hung in a picture frame in their home. Through the translator a father and son spoke to me about the repair I had done. They thanked me and asked if I knew what I wrote. I responded that I did not. The translator told me that it was an Islamic prayer thanking God for all they possessed.

This encounter built trust between me and the residence of the home.



So back to the point that I addressed before about the need for Islam to improve their PR skills. To most of America it seems that the moderate Muslims are largely silent here in the US. Except for when it comes to building this Mosque/ Gym thing.

You argue that the only factor for allowing it built is the law of the land. Nothing to say of the emotional impact it has on others. Such a disconnect from others is the impression people feel from the extremist.

Putting blame on people's perception changes nothing.

Saying "you're wrong" or "You must" (as in "You must accept us".) does not resolve the concern. If anything, that elevates tension.

If the mosque is to be built PR must come into play.

Denounce extremist as non-muslim from the mouths of respectable leadership. If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't represent Islam then someone in Islam needs to kick up more face time in the national spot like.

A book tour would be nice. with some manuscript that points out the fallies of Islam practiced by the extremist, perhaps even talk about the dedication of Islamic men to the cause of American Freedom.

The problem with most Islamic PR that goes on in the US is that Islam is too conservative for the left and too liberal for the right. In order to stand out in the middle you need to have charisma and smart points.

Take some pointers from the Mormons really. Coming up this weekend in the semi annual general conference of the church. It is broadcast world wide on a number of different networks. Check you local listings for it. Take notes on global PR in action especially during the breaks between sessions.

People don't look at the old men that lead our church and say "those guys look like they're going to blow me up."

I'd love to watch some Islamic programming in english that told feel good stories and old men imparting their wisdom onto a younger generation.

It does not help that a lot of the areas in the middle east barely reach into the modern age. Which is sad considering that practitioners of Islam used to LEAD scientific development! What happened?

The areas that due reach into the first world, such places like Dubai appear to be greedy rich tycoons no better than venture capitalist engaged in hostile takeovers.

All I'm saying if that I think you should understand how valid the fears of people are. To ignore the concerns of others, especially when introducing something to a emotionally scared region, is unemphatic.

Whenever change is brought about against the will of the people is takes a little bit of what makes America great with it.

If they want that mosque built, they'll need better PR and to publiclly denounce supporters of the attack during 9/11 as being non muslim.

I want to hear these words by out spoken muslims:

"To support the attacks of 9/11 is to go against the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and upon us all. To wage war against America means waging war against true Islam. Jihad is the spiritual battle of faith in maintaining oneself spiritually and not bringing physical attacks to others. To use terror to incite change is to lose Jihad and become an infidel. We stand together in America as Islam, Jews, Christians, and others as one. We are all the seed of Abraham, let there be peace."

FTM0305, your post is quite long, and it is difficult to address all of it. Please let me know if I failed to address any of your points.

I dont know enough of the Mormon faith to make comparisons to Islam.

The accusation that moderate Muslims are silent is an oft-used statement. I doubt "moderate" Muslims are going to have their own "tea-party" in protests. I still dont know what it is people expect of "moderate" Muslims? You want them to protest? Speak out? Go Mortal Kombat on some terrorists rear end?

I am glad you had a camaraderie-ship with your fellow Turk soldier.

To stop the building Mosque/community center on account of the false notion that Islam was responsible for 9/11 is not a good PR strategy.

When Muslims say the terrorists werent Muslim, that is exactly what they are trying to do - denounce extremists as non-Muslim. You put forth this suggestion, others say, dont deny it? This is like a merry-go-round 🙂

Lastly:

To support the attacks of 9/11 is to go against the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and upon us all. To wage war against America means waging war against true Islam. To use terror to incite change is to lose Jihad and become an infidel. We stand together in America as Islam, Jews, Christians, and others as one. We are all the seed of Abraham, let there be peace.

 

[bfdd]

routan, it is not up to you to say "these people aren't Muslim" if they keep saying they are. It's not US who is identifying them with Islam, it's they who identified themselves as Muslim. So the whole "what do moderates think?" is kind of important to some people and "they aren't Muslim" isn't that good of an answer.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

I'm glad you came out with the feeling that you helped those people.

And he's not the only one

Did you know there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion?

Al-Qaeda was not the mission.



Do you think Jesus would of approved of the invasion of Iraq?

In the long run, I would say, yeah

I'm pretty sure a true Christian would have to say no.

Thank God we're all pagans on this bus.



Where am I arguing for the escalation of violence?

In a time of war,there will be blood.

 

[PJABBER]

While routan continues to ignore questions and comments that challenge his poorly defined position that Islam is the "religion of peace," rather than a call to totalitarian theocracy, it is interesting to see the so-called "liberal" response.

Rather than challenge and condemn the evident hatred and nihilism of the words and actions of thousands of Islamists around the world, the typical liberal here feels chest-poundingly proud of coming to the defense of one of the most illiberal of all quasi-religious political ideologies.

I've always admired Dennis Prager for his insight into the human condition and a recent article of his offers up a reason why liberals, including those posting here, are so blindly ready to fault anyone with thoughtful reservations.

The Times, the Mosque and Islam -- No Moral Nuance

Dennis Prager
Tuesday, September 14, 2010

One of the most common self-assessments of the left is that conservatives rarely see nuances in moral questions, while liberals always do.

That this is a false conceit can be demonstrated with regard to almost any position held by the left. There is no nuance in liberal positions on abortion, race-based affirmative action, capital punishment, embryonic stem cell research or just about any other social issue.

Two such issues are the current Cordoba House Islamic center controversy and Americans' perceptions of Islam.

To liberals commenting on these issues, all that needs to be said are two things:

First, Islam is a religion of peace and even the most sophisticated questioning of that claim is an expression of nativism, bigotry, xenophobia and Islamophobia.

Second, the Muslim imam in New York City has a right to build his $100-million Islamic center two blocks from the spot where thousands of Americans were incinerated by 19 Muslims in the name of Islam.

That no conservative spokesman has challenged the imam's right to build the center, only the rightness of the act, is ignored whenever The New York Times, for example, discusses the issue.

The truth is that the Right's views of Muslims, the Cordoba House, and Islam are considerably more nuanced than those of the Left.

Remember - we are comparing elite with elite, not the elite left with dregs like the Gainesville "pastor" of a "50-member church" who planned an "International Quran Burning Day" and who was universally dismissed on the right as a publicity seeking jackass.

The elite right -- the leading conservative columnists, editorial pages and vast majority of major talk-show hosts - readily and regularly distinguish between jihadists and their American Muslim neighbor across the street.

But the left rarely distinguishes between bigoted haters and Americans who have questions about contemporary Islam and oppose the building of a $100 million Islamic center two blocks from ground zero.

This past Sunday, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof offered another example of left-wing nuance-free attacks on Americans who have any moral reservations about the world of Islam today.

Kristof began his column with an attack on the "venomous and debased discourse about Islam" in America.

He gives one example: New Republic publisher Martin Peretz, a rather thoughtful lifelong liberal, who actually had the temerity to raise moral concerns about Islam in a recent article. Peretz asked, for example, "Is not western society, imperfect as it may be ... immensely more liberal than the domains of Islam?"

And this: "This intense epidemic of (Islamic) slaughter has been going on for nearly a decade and a half...without protest, without anything. And it has been going for decades and centuries before that."

Kristof ignores every issue raised by Peretz and quotes one sentence to cite Peretz's article as an example of the "venomous and debased the discourse about Islam" permeating America. To The New York Times and the rest of the left, the question here is not whether what Peretz wrote is true - because when it comes to the right, the left is concerned with finding bigotry, not truth.

"Nativists are back on the warpath," Kristof went on to write.

Question: Can Kristof name any opponents of the Cordoba center or anyone else who vocalizes any questions about the moral state of the contemporary Muslim world whom he does not consider a nativist or bigot?

Kristof: "In America, bigoted comments about Islam often seem to come from people who have never visited a mosque and know few if any Muslims."

Question: Would Kristof agree that those on the left who declare that "Islam is a religion of peace" and who claim to see no moral differences between the contemporary Muslim world and the contemporary Christian, Jewish and Buddhist worlds, also have "never visited a mosque and know few if any Muslims?"

Kristof: "In their ignorance, they mirror the anti-Semitism that I hear in Muslim countries from people who have never met a Jew."

That is about as non-nuanced, as unsophisticated a statement as one can make on this is or any issue. In many Muslim countries, the media are saturated with "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" type Jew-hatred, with popular TV shows depicting Jews as killing Muslim children for their blood, and calls for extermination of the Jewish state. Nowhere in America is there anything regarding Muslims remotely analogous to the anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.

Another lack of nuance:

Kristof: "One American university professor wrote to me that 'every Muslim in the world' believes that the proposed Manhattan Islamic center would symbolize triumph over America. That reminded me of Pakistanis who used to tell me that 'every Jew' knew of 9/11 in advance, so that none died in the World Trade Center."

Here is the (nuanced) truth: Vast numbers of Muslims believe that Jews stayed away from the World Trade Center on 9/11. That is a lie - not one Jew on earth knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. But it is not a lie that there are millions of Muslims who believe that a giant Islamic center and mosque near ground zero would be a sign of Muslim victory.

The same day Kristof's simplistic view of the mosque issue was published, AOL News reported on a demonstration against the mosque. It quoted a man named Ron Silverados, identified as "a 57-year-old road striper from Long Island:" "I'm tired of saying this but this isn't a religious issue ... it is a moral issue."

There was more moral nuance in the road striper's comment than in all the liberal columns and editorials of The New York Times.

If the left were primarily concerned with bigotry, it would be preoccupied with the most bigoted places on earth -- many Islamic nations. But in general, the left hates the right more than it hates bigotry. And that leads to a world devoid of moral nuance.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Al-Qaeda was not the mission

Did you read what FTM posted?

In the long run, I would say, yeah

No

In a time of war,there will be blood.

Yep that's why everything must be done to avoid it. You notice it's always the bad guy that starts them?

If I were to post a bunch of pictures of women and children cheering and throwing flowers at Saddam, what would be the first thing you would think.

Let's not go anymore off topic though..

 

[Orignal Earl]

While routan continues to ignore questions and comments that challenge his poorly defined position that Islam is the "religion of peace," rather than a call to totalitarian theocracy, it is interesting to see the so-called "liberal" response.

Rather than challenge and condemn the evident hatred and nihilism of the words and actions of thousands of Islamists around the world, the typical liberal here feels chest-poundingly proud of coming to the defense of one of the most illiberal of all quasi-religious political ideologies.

I've always admired Dennis Prager for his insight into the human condition and a recent article of his offers up a reason why liberals, including those posting here, are so blindly ready to fault anyone with thoughtful reservations.

Dennis Prager, a neo con orthodox jew (talk about illiberal) who hates Islam.
Diana West, a neo con jew who hates Islam.

You keep posting articles by these people who seem to make their living hating on Islam.
You got anything from someone who could be considered a normal well rounded individual?

 

[routan]

routan, it is not up to you to say "these people aren't Muslim" if they keep saying they are. It's not US who is identifying them with Islam, it's they who identified themselves as Muslim. So the whole "what do moderates think?" is kind of important to some people and "they aren't Muslim" isn't that good of an answer.

bfdd, bro, lol. Please read what I wrote:

When Muslims say the terrorists werent Muslim, that is exactly what they are trying to do - denounce extremists as non-Muslim. You put forth this suggestion, others say, dont deny it? This is like a merry-go-round 🙂

So one person asks moderate Muslims to declare extremism as non-Muslim, and you suggest otherwise.

Muslims, "moderates" and whatever other moniker you would like to ascribe think these people are terrorists, acting against the teachings of Islam, and those who support such acts should be dealt with harshly. There should also be wholehearted steps, by everyone, to snip out the leaders and root support of such actions, and rehabiliate the brainwashed grunts.

 

[FTM0305]

bfdd, bro, lol. Please read what I wrote:



So one person asks moderate Muslims to declare extremism as non-Muslim, and you suggest otherwise.

Muslims, "moderates" and whatever other moniker you would like to ascribe think these people are terrorists, acting against the teachings of Islam, and those who support such acts should be dealt with harshly. There should also be wholehearted steps, by everyone, to snip out the leaders and root support of such actions, and rehabiliate the brainwashed grunts.

I think what he meant is that its not enough for just you to say it.

Like I said was an issue before, Islam does not have a figure head that people can trust. Islam needs someone comparable to the Rev Jesse Jackson (who holds no political position, but over the years has developed the ability to obtain national attention) who can be overtly outspoken for Islam in America. Someone saying the extremist are non-muslim on a web forum doesn't hold much weight.

 

[FTM0305]

I'm glad you came out with the feeling that you helped those people.
Did you know there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion?

Yes I did, but they came there after Saddam Hussein's regime fell after the initial campaign that took most of the country from his control and forced him into hiding.

Before US involvement Al-Qaeda and Saddam's regime were not allies. Saddam saw Al-Qaeda as a rival to his own power.

I think I know more about the history of the conflict than you think.

Do you think Jesus would of approved of the invasion of Iraq?
I'm pretty sure a true Christian would have to say no.

You don't know what a true Christian is. Over the centuries people had altered the image of Christ into a long haired hippy rather than the Son of God. Who at one time used cords and a whip to drive merchants from the temple.

Jesus was a violent person, but there is a continued messege in the scriptures about the wisdom and justice of God. The balance between Justice and Mercy. When to rise up and when to defend. A true Christian is balanced a seeks the will of God through self discipline while trying to listen to the still small voice. Equated to one's conscience if put solely in a secular way.

The fault that we have is that we don't go to more countries to intervene. Such as Uganda where children are used as Soldiers. Kind of like what happens in Iraq with insurgents. My unit spared the life of a child when he and his father we caught activity planting road side bombs. His presence saved his father's life, but he was apprehended once ground units closed on his position.

Where am I arguing for the escalation of violence?

In your retort you spurn comparison and joke of Islamic violence being an answer to the west. Even trying to compare Islamic violence in the middle east to Mormon history which by comparison to Islam is a pretty tame history.

You argue for the sake of arguing without understanding the perspective of others.

You missed my point with the Temple near Vatican City, it took relationship building in order to obtain the permits necessary. For years in Europe Mormonism was not a recognized religion even, but that has changed in the last 50 years because we seek to build relationships of trust and participate world wide in not only religious missionary work, but also service work such as providing food, education, warm clothes, etc.

We set up websites for people worldwide, not just our membership to have access to what we believe instead of the word of mouth or slander posted by others. I bet at least a few people on this forum have seen one of my church's internet ads to talk with a member of church via chat. We make ourselves available.

Forcing a building into a location unwanted by its residents is not a way to win hearts and minds.

Temples used to be protested all the time, but quickly disperse when local residence discover that having a Mormon temple near them actually raises the value of their homes on the market.

Another important point is this: Why would any Muslim group want a mosque so close to ground zero?

Its like a German Protestant trying to build a church on the ruins of concentration camps.

Its distasteful. Even if they had nothing to do with the wrong doings of the location. But it still associates the mosque to the incident.

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Carmen813]

Blame the OP. He is the one who only discusses what he wants to and with who he wants to.

Is that not his right? Is he required to address every sniveling distortion and lie in this thread because he has openly admitting to being a Muslim? Should he be forced to address every grievance brought up by those who are only looking for some small slip in what he says so they can exploit it and fulfill their own needs to have their biases confirmed?

Give me a fucking break.

In the end, intolerance will damn those to spend eternity with the very same people they profess to hate.

 

[Carmen813]

Carmen813, the worst thing you could possibly do is stop participating on account of the aforementioned voices.

Where there are voices of hatred and xenophobia, there should also be voices of reason. Please play your part.

I appreciate the response, but know that there is really little I can do over an internet forum to change minds. Those who need to hear will not listen. Simply put, anonymity gives bigots the cover they need to espouse their xenophobia and find those who agree. I end up merely pounding my head against a wall.

Know that in the real world I do my best to address these issues when I am confronted with them, and I stand with you to the best of my ability.

 

[PJABBER]

Dennis Prager, a neo con orthodox jew (talk about illiberal) who hates Islam.
Diana West, a neo con jew who hates Islam.

You keep posting articles by these people who seem to make their living hating on Islam.
You got anything from someone who could be considered a normal well rounded individual?

Why do you hate Jews so much?

 

[Orignal Earl]

You don't know what a true Christian is.

I think we are just going to have to say that the Mormon Jesus is quite different then the Jesus all Christians faiths follow.
I know Mormons regard themselves Christians, and hey that's alright by me.
But even a simple google for Mormon Jesus can find a lot of answers.
I've never seen a Mormon thread here before and would find it very interesting.
You guys get points for doing that don't you? You should give it a whirl.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Why do you hate Jews so much?

I don't know if I really hate anybody. (you must be associating your own feelings into mine)
But I do find hypocrites amusing.
And I do find those 2 people amusing.

 

[FTM0305]

I think we are just going to have to say that the Mormon Jesus is quite different then the Jesus all Christians faiths follow.
I know Mormons regard themselves Christians, and hey that's alright by me.
But even a simple google for Mormon Jesus can find a lot of answers.
I've never seen a Mormon thread here before and would find it very interesting.
You guys get points for doing that don't you? You should give it a whirl.

hmm, you try to post anti-mormon response. You post a string if searched would produce anti mormon literature.

Wow. So by this same argument we should get all our facts about Islam through its opponents?

A simple read of the bible would show the character of Jesus for what he is.

Didn't you see that Nytimes article thats been posted over the web, between jews and mormons we know more about world religions than any other religious groups.

We should bring an atheist from the Intelligent Design thread in here to moderate. Since they scored on average a point higher than mormons or jews.

I'm really not convinced you know anything you're talking about. You are more of an antagonistic presence to this thread than anything. Your defense of Islam is actually a discredit to it.

Especially, of my entire response you choose to attack our fundamental belief in Christ.