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A Muslim's perspective

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Blame the OP. He is the one who only discusses what he wants to and with who he wants to.

Look at him and that Phineas guy, two different religions but they act EXACTLY the same, they don't answer questions if not just by asking questions or threading around the question and post a strawman.

Religion makes people stupid, that much is quite clear.
 
Hey, look at the bright side. You'll never have to fight the Mormons.

Hopefully not, there are good people who are Mormons, otoh, there are good people who are Muslims, in fact, for every ONE opponent Muslim in Afghanistan there are several tenths of thousands that are good people.

But they don't have their holy underwear for nothing, i think they are plotting to take over the world.
 
I can't say I actually understood any of your points in this post, but what in the world is wrong with Al-Jazeera and PakTribune (formerly PakNews)? I've found them very valuable in the past as tools to know what Muslim leaders are saying to Muslims. Are you alleging they are some sort of Zionist plot or something? Canada for instance (not a free press country) approved Al-Jazeera before FoxNews, who applied earlier, so Canada at least doesn't see anything wrong with them. Admittedly I haven't visited that or PakNews in recent years, but I always found them to be reasonably accurate if culturally biased differently from our own media. (By which I mean that if detailing an honor killing or a protest-turned-riot or an act we deem terrorism, these media tend to stress the justification that Western sources typically find irrelevant.)

Since Routan doesn't like my definition of the hadith, here are some other explanations & collections for those who care. They are also useful when you see a quote attributed to Muhammed, so that you may see it in context. Also, I definitely should have said (though I honestly didn't remember) that only the so-called Sacred Hadith are supposedly the actual words of Muhammed, while other hadith may be detailing his actions. I think otherwise my explanation was pretty accurate, but anyone who cares may read and judge for himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
http://www.uga.edu/islam/hadith.html
http://www.includipedia.com/wiki/Hadith
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/
http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/
http://muslimwiki.com/mw/index.php/Hadith

werepossum, I had already defined hadith. That is probably the only thing you were right about. Let me clarify for the larger community. There are not only 6 or 7 major hadiths. Hadiths are used as references for understanding the Quran and as a source of precedence for jurisprudence.

I cant seem to understand why you would throw an underhanded comment about Mohammad (sa), without any reference whatsoever. Or describe Hadiths as a source of sectarianism.

You referred to the websites such as Al-Jazeera/PakTribnte as sources where information is provided different in English vs. the native language, pursuant to your claim and my request for substantiation. If you are portraying them as reasonably accurate, I dont quite follow what you are trying to point out?

I do thank you for providing good references for people wanting to learn about Hadiths 🙂
 
I do thank you for providing good references for people wanting to learn about Hadiths 🙂

I would like to thank everyone but routan for providing wide ranging and referenced information on Islam in this thread. Routan, as the OP, has been singularly unhelpful in enlightening us about Islam, but I am pleasantly surprised that there are a number of posters here that have elected to provide significant and informative commentary on such a complex ideology.

Edit: I would like to thank routan for providing wonderful examples of dissimulation throughout this thread.

I tutor a small group of diplomatic and business staff once a month in international negotiating styles and techniques and this month I used examples of the Q&non-A in this thread to kickstart one of the best sessions we have had this year.

It is very hard for people only familiar with fairly straight forward American negotiation styles to gain an understanding of the deflection and dissimulation used in certain cultures without actually working in these cultures.

In this case, with the examples offered by routan, they were not only able to immediately grasp the technique but were able to apply it in their own negotiation styles. In previous sessions, it took hours to convey how misdirection will be used, but routan's examples had them at the "Oh, wow!" moment almost immediately.

:awe:
 
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lapotionmagique.jpg


Grandpa: Why don't we let Jabber tell the story.
Jabber: Really, me? You mean it?
Grandpa: I think you're ready for your first ramble.
Jabber: I've been waiting for this day for so long. The year is 1946, and in a world torn, a single flower blooms and that flower is an angry Japanese monster named Godzilla. How am I doing Grandpa?
Grandpa: I'm hanging on every word.
 
lapotionmagique.jpg


Grandpa: Why don't we let Jabber tell the story.
Jabber: Really, me? You mean it?
Grandpa: I think you're ready for your first ramble.
Jabber: I've been waiting for this day for so long. The year is 1946, and in a world torn, a single flower blooms and that flower is an angry Japanese monster named Godzilla. How am I doing Grandpa?
Grandpa: I'm hanging on every word.

Orignal Earl, LOL!
 
:awe: Terms you will need to get familiar with, Earl:

Dhimmitude:

"The term dhimmitude comes from the Arabic word "dhimmi." It refers to subjugated, non-Muslim individuals or people that accept the restrictive and humiliating subordination to an ascendant Islamic power to avoid enslavement or death." - Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis by Bat Ye'or (page 9)

The concept of "dhimmitude" was introduced into Western discourse by the writer Bat Ye'or in a French-language article published in the Italian journal La Rassegna mensile di Israel in 1983.

The term was used in English as early as 1985 in a book review by Prof. James E. Biechler in the Journal of Ecumenical Studies, in which he praised Ye'or's work, commenting that, "Perhaps the single most significant contribution of the author is her definition and development of the concept of 'dhimmitude'".

Ye'or further popularised the term in her books The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude; Seventh-Twentieth Century and the 2003 followup Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide. After the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, the term became far more widely used, particularly in discussions about Islamism and the Islamization of the West.

Bat Ye'or defined dhimmitude as the condition and experience of those who are subject to dhimma, and thus not synonymous to, but rather a subset of the dhimma phenomenon.

It may be simply a replacement for the relatively little known (compared to dhimmi) noun dhimma, coined to carry the same meaning. This has already widely happened in French usage where, as in English, "-tude" is a productive suffix.

A more recent pejorative usage variant of "dhimmi" and "dhimmitude" divorces the words from the historical context of jihad and applies them to situations where non-Muslims in the West are championing Islamic causes above others. "Dhimmi" is treated as analogous to "Quisling" within this context.

www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dhimmitude

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude

"Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29)."

"This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, is part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race.

The dhimmi attitude of chastened subservience has entered into Western academic study of Islam, and from there into journalism, textbooks, and the popular discourse. One must not point out the depredations of jihad and dhimmitude; to do so would offend the multiculturalist ethos that prevails everywhere today."

www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch

Dhimmi
:

"An Islamic term that refers to a subjugated non-Muslim person living in a Muslim society.

Second-class status is confirmed by the legal system and dhimmis do not share the rights of their Muslim rulers."

www.thereligionofpeace.com/Page...s.htm

"a non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia law"

www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dhimmi

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Quisling
:

"a person who betrays his or her own country by aiding an invading enemy, often serving later in a puppet government"

dictionary.reference.com/browse/Quisling

"Quisling, after Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling, who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country, is a term used to describe traitors and collaborationists. It was most commonly used for fascist political parties and military and paramilitary forces in occupied Allied countries which collaborated with Axis occupiers in World War II, as well as for their members and other collaborators.

www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Quisling

Dhimwit
:

"A non-Muslim member of a free society that abets the stated cause of Islamic domination with remarkable gullibility. A dhimwit is always quick to extend sympathy to the very enemy that would take away his or her own freedom (or life) if given the opportunity."

www.thereligionofpeace.com/Page...s.htm

Jizya:

Qur'an 9:29 = non-Muslim tax
 
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I'm sorry there Jabber.
But I'm not going to quiver in fear of the invading Muslim hoards.
Preach on though, your stories no doubt are entertaining to say the least.

I've told no stories in this thread, nor am I preaching (can I hear an AMEN!, anyway?)

By now you should know that all of my posts are entertaining and informative, to say the least! :awe:
 
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Dhimwit:

"A non-Muslim member of a free society that abets the stated cause of Islamic domination with remarkable gullibility. A dhimwit is always quick to extend sympathy to the very enemy that would take away his or her own freedom (or life) if given the opportunity."

Lollerskates
 
But I'm not going to quiver in fear of the invading Muslim hoards.

Wonder if many Europeans think they are being invaded? The ones who are trying to ban burquas, minarets in the skyline, dealing with riots from youths who won't integrate into a society they freely chose to move to, not enjoying freedom expression in their own country without fear of riots and death threats, proposed changes to British schools to make them more Muslim friendly, etc, etc...

it is just a matter of time before the US will be dealing with these issues that the Europeans are facing now...

Just because they dont use machine guns and rockets doesn't mean it is not an invasion...
 
Wonder if many Europeans think they are being invaded? The ones who are trying to ban burquas, minarets in the skyline, dealing with riots from youths who won't integrate into a society they freely chose to move to, not enjoying freedom expression in their own country without fear of riots and death threats, proposed changes to British schools to make them more Muslim friendly, etc, etc...

it is just a matter of time before the US will be dealing with these issues that the Europeans are facing now...

Just because they dont use machine guns and rockets doesn't mean it is not an invasion...

spacejamz, from a different perspective, would you not consider that maybe some European countries are reluctant to accept Muslims as part of their nation? That perhaps it is the right of expression of Muslims to wear a burqa? The right to practice religion wheb building minarets?

Not adhering to societial "norms" is not uncommon in this country. I dont quite put not adhering to societial norms and right to express and practice religion in the same bucket.

Or is it that Muslims and only Muslims are excluded from these rights? And are you suggesting the same be done in the United States?
 
Wonder if many Europeans think they are being invaded? The ones who are trying to ban burquas, minarets in the skyline, dealing with riots from youths who won't integrate into a society they freely chose to move to, not enjoying freedom expression in their own country without fear of riots and death threats, proposed changes to British schools to make them more Muslim friendly, etc, etc...

it is just a matter of time before the US will be dealing with these issues that the Europeans are facing now...

Just because they dont use machine guns and rockets doesn't mean it is not an invasion...

There is no greater amount of islamophobia in the world that can be compared to that going on in P&N right now.
All the things you have mentioned in the quote above will never happen in the US.
If you really have that kind of lack of faith in your country, best pack up your bags and your family and run away to that magic Islam free country in the sky.
 
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spacejamz, from a different perspective, would you not consider that maybe some European countries are reluctant to accept Muslims as part of their nation? That perhaps it is the right of expression of Muslims to wear a burqa? The right to practice religion wheb building minarets?

Europe did not make these muslims move into their countries. Whether they were displaced or choose to freely move there, Muslims should be more accepting of their new surroundings. It has already been documented frequently that many Muslims do NOT want to adapt to their new homes. This is what has started the riots in France a few years ago.

And yet again, why cannot people in Denmark freely express themselves by depicting Muhammed as they choose? This does not break any Danish laws. Yet, the Muslims in Denmark want the Danish citizens to respect the Islam's belief that no pictures of their God be drawn.

What have Muslims given up to show their tolerance for their new homes? Many Muslim parents are unhappy that their children are being Westernized (with their clothes, music, relationships with non-muslims, etc)...They have a hard time treating women with respect dignity as most modern societies treat them. They are offended when the word Christmas is uttered. They want to change US holidays to reflect Muslim holidays. Muslim women want to take their driver license pictures with their face covered. They do not understand the concept of freedom of expression of those who do not share their same view points.

No one made these Muslims move to the United States and yet because they are not happy here, they want to make US citizens adapt to these beliefs that contradict the way of life here.
 
Earl, as a Canadian you should note that your country, too, is not any less vulnerable than any other democracy.

As I see Islam as being primarily a political movement with the stated goal of universal totalitarian theocracy, I find it especially worthwhile to lay out some of the immediate challenges to the democracies of both Canada and the United States.

WARNING: Wall O' Text (tm) follows! The article, written in 2004 before the most recent controversy over the proposed Cordoba Mosque in NYC, addresses specific issues from a legal perspective and identifies the disjoint that totalitarian and theocratic Islam has with Western constitutional democracies. Earl, please do note that the author references issues specific to Canada as well as the United States.

The Islamist Challenge to the U.S. Constitution

by David Kennedy Houck, Esq.
Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2006, pp. 21-28

First in Europe and now in the United States, Muslim groups have petitioned to establish enclaves in which they can uphold and enforce greater compliance to Islamic law. While the U.S. Constitution enshrines the right to religious freedom and the prohibition against a state religion, when it comes to the rights of religious enclaves to impose communal rules, the dividing line is more nebulous. Can U.S. enclaves, homeowner associations, and other groups enforce Islamic law?

Such questions are no longer theoretical. While Muslim organizations first established enclaves in Europe,[1] the trend is now crossing the Atlantic. Some Islamist community leaders in the United States are challenging the principles of assimilation and equality once central to the civil rights movement, seeking instead to live according to a separate but equal philosophy. The Gwynnoaks Muslim Residential Development group, for example, has established an informal enclave in Baltimore because, according to John Yahya Cason, director of the Islamic Education and Community Development Initiative, a Baltimore-based Muslim advocacy group, "there was no community in the U.S. that showed the totality of the essential components of Muslim social, economic, and political structure."[2]

Baltimore is not alone. In August 2004, a local planning commission in Little Rock, Arkansas, granted The Islamic Center for Human Excellence authorization to build an internal Islamic enclave to include a mosque, a school, and twenty-two homes.[3] While the imam, Aquil Hamidullah, says his goal is to create "a clean community, free of alcohol, drugs, and free of gangs,"[4] the implications for U.S. jurisprudence of this and other internal enclaves are greater: while the Little Rock enclave might prevent the sale of alcohol, can it punish possession and in what manner? Can it force all women, be they residents or visitors, to don Islamic hijab (headscarf)? Such enclaves raise the fundamental questions of when, how, and to what extent religious practice may supersede the U.S. Constitution.

The Internal Muslim Enclave

The internal Muslim enclave proposed by the Islamic Center for Human Excellence in Arkansas represents a new direction for Islam in the United States. The group seeks to transform a loosely organized Muslim population into a tangible community presence. The group has foreign financial support: it falls under the umbrella of a much larger Islamic group, "Islam 4 the World," an organization sponsored by Sharjah, one of the constituent emirates of the United Arab Emirates.[5]

While the Islamic Center for Human Excellence has yet to articulate detailed plans for its Little Rock enclave, the group's reliance on foreign funding is troublesome. Past investments by the United Arab Emirates' rulers and institutions have promoted radical interpretations of Islam. [6]

The Islamic Center for Human Excellence may seek to segregate schools and offices by gender. The enclave might also exercise broad control upon commerce within its boundaries — provided the economic restrictions did not discriminate against out-of-state interests or create an undue burden upon interstate commerce. But most critically, the enclave could promulgate every internal law — from enforcing strict religious dress codes to banning alcohol possession and music; it could even enforce limits upon religious and political tolerance.

Although such concepts are antithetical to a free society, U.S. democracy allows the internal enclave to function beyond the established boundaries of our constitutional framework. At the very least, the permissible parameters of an Islamist enclave are ill defined.

The greater American Muslim community's unapologetic and public manifestation of belief in a separate but equal ideology does not bode well.

In September 2004, the New Jersey branch of the Islamic Circle of North America rented Six Flags Adventure Park in New Jersey for "The Great Muslim Adventure Day." The advertisement announcing the event stated: "The entire park for Muslims only."

While legal — and perhaps analogous to corporate or other non-religious groups renting facilities, the advertisement expressly implied a mindset that a proof of faith was required for admission to the park. In his weblog, commentator Daniel Pipes raises a relevant and troubling question about the event: because it is designated for Muslims only, "Need one recite the shahada to enter the fairgrounds?"[7]

While U.S. law might give such Muslims-only events the benefit of the doubt, flexibility may not go both ways. There is precedent of Islamists taking advantage of liberal flexibility to more extreme ends.

Canada provides a useful example into how Islamist groups can exploit liberal legal tolerance.

In 1991, Ontario, Canada, passed a seemingly innocuous law called the "Arbitration Act."[8] This act permitted commercial, religious, or such other designated arbitrators to settle civil disputes outside the Canadian justice system so long as the result did not contradict Canadian law. Like U.S. authorities are beginning to do now, Canadian legislators decided to give religious groups the benefit of the doubt, assuming that they would still hold national law to be paramount.

In October 2003, under the auspices of the Ontario legislation, the Islamic Institute of Civil Justice created Muslim arbitration boards and stated its intent to arbitrate on the basis of Islamic law.[9]

A national furor erupted, particularly among Canadian Muslim women's groups that opposed the application of traditional Islamic (Shari‘a) laws that would supersede their far more liberal and egalitarian democratic rights.

After nearly two years of legal wrangling, the premier of Ontario, Dalton McGuinty, held that religious-based arbitrations "threaten our common ground," and announced, "There will be no Shari‘a law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians."[10] On November 15, 2005, McGuinty's provincial government submitted legislation to amend the arbitration act to abrogate, in effect, all religious arbitration.[11]

Requests for Muslim enclaves within larger U.S. communities may signal that U.S. jurisprudence will soon be faced with a similar conundrum. Islamist exceptionalism can abuse the tolerance liberal societies have traditionally extended to interface between religious and secular law.

Prior to the Islamic Institute of Civil Justice demands to impose Shari‘a, the Arbitration Act worked well.

Unfortunately for Canadian Jews, the repeal ended state-enforcement of agreements reached by the use of a millennia-old rabbinical court system called beit din (house of law) that had for decades quietly settled marriage, custody, and business disputes. Joel Richler, Ontario region chairman of the Canadian Jewish Congress, expressed his lament: "If there have been any problems flowing from any rabbinical court decisions, I'm not aware of them."[12]

Canadian Catholics likewise were stopped from being able to annul marriages according to Canon Law and avoid undue entanglement in civil courts. Abuse of the spirit of the law, though, ended up curtailing local liberty.

Rather than soften the edge between religion and state, the Islamic Institute of Civil Justice threatened to eliminate it with the imposition of Shari‘a.

The Canadian experience demonstrates how flexibility can backfire when all parties do not seek to uphold basic precepts of tolerance. The Little Rock application raises the specter of a parallel situation. While The Islamic Center for Human Excellence may state it wants to create a clean-living community, might the community's extreme interpretation of Shari‘a force a reconsideration of just how much leeway the U.S. government gives religious communities?

As the Muslim community in the United States grows, an increasingly active Islamist lobby has submitted numerous white papers and amicus briefs to legislators and courts arguing for the religious right of Muslims to apply Shari‘a law, particularly in relation to family law disputes.[13]

This looming jurisprudential conflict is significant for it raises issues about the rights of community members to marry outside the community, forced marriages, and the minimum age of brides, and whether wives and daughters may enjoy equal inheritance. In cases of non-family law, it raises the question about whether the testimony of women will be considered on par with that of men.

No previous enclave in U.S. history has ever been so vigorously protected by agents of group identity politics or so adamantly defended by legal watchdogs; nor has any previous religious enclave possessed the potency of more than one billion believers around the world. Islamic-only communities may also benefit from the largess provided by billions of petrol dollars to finance growth.

The track record of Saudi and other wealthy Persian Gulf donations and charitable efforts are worrisome.

There is a direct correlation between Saudi money received and the spread of intolerant practices. In 2004, for example, the U.S. Treasury Department froze the assets of Al-Haramein Foundation, one of Saudi Arabia's largest nongovernmental organizations, because of its financial links to Al-Qaeda.[14] Additionally, American graduates of Saudi academies advance Wahhabist interpretations of Islam inside the U.S. prison system,[15] and Saudi-subsidized publications promote intolerance inside U.S. mosques.[16]

A Muslim enclave is uniquely perilous because there are few if any internal enclaves that adhere to a polity dedicated to the active abrogation of secular law and the imposition of a supreme religious law. The concept of Shari‘a is so fundamental to Islam, that even today, prominent Muslim jurists argue over whether a Muslim can fully discharge Shari‘a obligations while residing in a non-Muslim territory.[17] Yet, in spite of this apparent conundrum, Muslims have resided peacefully in non-Muslim lands since the seventh century. In the greater context, there may be a breach in the dike for Islamist groups residing in the United States because the Baltimore and Little Rock enclaves must acknowledge the U.S. Constitution as the paramount basis of civil law.

A dissident Islamic sub-community is filled with dichotomous propositions: from the presumed supremacy of Shari‘a-based law over secular law; the melding of religion and polity versus the constitutionally mandated separation of same; to the politics of group and factionalism, versus assimilation and pluralism. To deny the settlement of a Muslim-only community based solely upon prejudices formed after September 11 would be illiberal. But the alternative, opening the door to Islamic enclaves without scrutiny, is as dubious.

The Enclave under U.S. Law

Existing U.S. legal precedent, though, may provide some grounds for handling expansive demands for Islamic enclaves. U.S. legal views of internal enclaves derive from the famous 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision, in which the Supreme Court ruled the concept of separate but equal to be unconstitutional.[18] While the case revolved around the right of black children to attend white schools, it promulgated a concept that is anathema in today's world of multiculturalism: neither the state nor any constituent group could claim equality through separation.

Enclaves can exist, though. As courts have ruled on issues relating to equality under the law and upon the autonomy of religious practice, two distinctive features of internal U.S. enclaves have taken shape: first, the boundaries of the enclave should be recognized by local inhabitants. Second, the enclave cannot supersede the constitutionally protected rights of the citizens of a state.

Because most rights secured by the constitution are protected only against infringement by government action, the Supreme Court has avoided establishing a bright-line test as to the limits of religious liberty. Any religious group or individual seeking to establish an internal enclave has the right to limit residency, promulgate local rules, and perhaps even collect fees or taxes to support nominal community services.

Such enclaves do not hold final sway over the rights of non-residents, however. In Jackson v. Metropolitan Edison Company[19] and Flagg Brothers v. Brooks,[20] the court outlined constitutional protections for private citizens in which any entity, religious or otherwise, exercising governmental authority over private citizens remains subject to the provisions of the First and Fourteenth amendments. In both cases, the court affirmed that citizens of a state retain their right to "due process of law" under the Fourteenth Amendment, even when inside an enclave. These holdings, however, do not prevent enclaves from restricting the individual freedoms of their inhabitants.

The Supreme Court has ruled upon the limits of religious liberty. In Cantwell v. Connecticut, the court outlined the circumstances in which the government could act to restrict religious independence. The court held that the free exercise clause "embraces two concepts—freedom to believe and freedom to act. The first is absolute, but in the nature of things, the second cannot be. Conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society."[21]

Christopher L. Eisgruber, professor of law at New York University, explained. He argued that, "the Constitution permits government to nurture ideological sub-communities founded upon premises inconsistent with the constitution's own commitments."[22] He maintained that such dissident sub-communities can provide important "sources of dissent"[23] and asserted that even if an enclave embraced ideals contrary to constitutional ideals, it should still be granted the right to pursue its own vision of good. For example, he wrote:
[Though] it is regrettable that young women in Kiryas Joel [a Satmar Hasidic enclave] will grow up in a starkly sexist culture, and it is regrettable that the Amish children of Yoder will find it very hard to become astronomers or lawyers … it would also be regrettable if the United States were not home to any sub-communities which, like the Satmars or the Amish, rejected principles of justice fundamental to the American regime.[24]
According to Eisgruber, tolerance of the intolerant is fundamental to the freedoms espoused by Western liberal democracy.

While Islamists might use such logic to argue for the permissibility of Shari‘a communities, such tolerance has limits.

Enclaves do not have carte blanche to act. Both the state and national legislatures must retain control over the extent of accommodation, and there should be no subsidization of the enclave by the government.[25] Such limits ensure that the government can constrain those sub-communities that might espouse more radical, violent, or racist views.[26]

It is usually when the U.S. government moves to uphold the rule of law that most Americans first learn of an internal enclave. Few Americans knew of the philosophy espoused by anti-government activist Randy Weaver until 1992 when the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms raided his compound at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, killing Vicki Weaver, their infant son, Sam, and the family dog.[27]

Nor did many Americans know about David Koresh and his religious views until a raid the following year on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, in which a resulting fire killed fifty adults and twenty-five children under the age of fifteen.[28]

While tragic, such events involved cults or political splinter groups. The growth of Muslim enclaves raises the specter of such conflicts occurring on a much larger scale.

While the court has interpreted the establishment clause to empower the government to constrain dissident sub-communities when necessary to protect public safety, it has been wary of addressing legal issues requiring intrusion upon the religious polity. Because the First Amendment provides for religious freedom, the court has confined itself to ruling upon three basic issues: property disputes between national religious hierarchical organizations with affiliated breakaway entities; accommodations under the free exercise clause; and the prohibition against the establishment of a state religion. New challenges, though, may lead to new interpretations.

The Antithesis to Democracy

Is concern over internal Muslim enclaves justified? On their face, the fundamental principles of the internal Muslim enclave are no more invidious than any other religious enclave.

But ideology matters. Many proponents of an Islamic polity promote an ideology at odds with U.S. constitutional jurisprudence and the prohibition against the establishment of a state-sponsored religion. The refusal to recognize federal law makes Islamist enclaves more akin to Ruby Ridge than to the Hasidic and Amish cases cited by Eisgruber.

Muslim theologians describe Islam not only as a religion but also as a system of state. The Qur'an—viewed by Muslims as the word of God — is replete with instructions about governance. An enclave promoting Islamic mores does not necessarily restrict itself to a social atmosphere but also one of governance. Traditional Islamic law controls the most basic aspects of everyday life and may make any Islamic enclave irreconcilable with the basic presumptions of Western liberal democracy and secular law.

While many American Muslims practice Islam and embrace the fundamental principles of the U.S. Constitution, others do not. There are consistent attempts by Islamist elements overseas to strengthen their own radical interpretation of Islam at the expense of moderation and tolerance.

Saudi donors, for example, have propagated the ideology of Islamism, which seeks to interweave a narrow and often intolerant interpretation of religion into an all-encompassing political ideology. The number of imams and jihadists who have been outspoken in identifying the supremacy of Shari‘a to democracy underlines the incompatibility of Islamism and democracy. The late Saudi theologian, Sheikh Muhammad bin Ibrahim al-Jubair, for example, stated,
Only one ambition is worthy of Islam, to save the world from the curse of democracy: to teach men that they cannot rule themselves on the basis of man-made laws. Mankind has strayed from the path of God, we must return to that path or face certain annihilation.[29]
Prior to Iraq's January 30, 2005 elections, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, released an audiotape in which he declared war upon democracy and denounced its tenets as "the very essence of heresy, polytheism, and error."[30]

Nor is Islamist antipathy for democracy limited to popular elections. According to a Saudi publication distributed at a San Diego mosque, "[Democracy is] responsible for all the horrible wars … more than 130 wars with more than 120 million people dead [in the twentieth century alone]; not counting victims of poverty, hunger and disease."[31]

Such sentiments reflect a common theme among Islamists: democracy is the antithesis to everything pious and pure in Islam; and, in truth, democracy is the direct and substantial causal effect of Muslim suffering and injustice in the world today.

This does not mean that Islamists are unwilling to use democracy for their ends. But while they accept the trappings of democracy, they continue to reject its principles because the Shari‘a, to them the perfect rule of law, cannot be abrogated or altered by the shifting moods of a secular electorate. Mohamed Elhachmi Hamdi, editor-in-chief of the pan-Arab weekly Al-Mustakillah, explained,
The heart of the matter is that no Islamic state can be legitimate in the eyes of its subjects without obeying the main teachings of the Shari‘a. A secular government might coerce obedience, but Muslims will not abandon their belief that state affairs should be supervised by the just teachings of the holy law.[32]
He could draw from plenty of examples. In 1992, for example, Ali Balhadj, a leader of the Islamic Salvation Front in Algeria, declared, "When we are in power, there will be no more elections because God will be ruling."[33] While mayor of Istanbul, Islamist Turkish politician Recep Tayyip Erdoğan quipped, "For us, democracy is a streetcar. We would go as far as we could, and then get off."[34] As he eviscerates the judiciary, many Turks wonder about his sincerity.[35]

Experience abroad is relevant, as it goes to the heart of the sincerity of proponents of the Little Rock and Baltimore enclaves, an issue compounded by the willingness to accept donations from Persian Gulf financiers.

Conclusion

How Muslims reconcile Islamic polity within the confines of Western liberal democracy is an unresolved issue. This process will take years to evolve and is likely to convulse in further violent episodes.

Presently, many Muslims reject wholesale the notion of a dominant secular law and instead seek the imposition of a pan-Islamist state under the guidance of Shari‘a. These Islamists view secular modernity and the democratic practices of radical egalitarianism, individual rights, and free exercise of religion as a direct and substantial threat to their belief system, and they are intent on employing violence against the West for the foreseeable future. The remainder and majority of the Muslim world must reject nihilism and engage in widespread debate regarding Islam's role within the world community.

The local planning commission in Little Rock, Arkansas, might proceed with the proposed Muslim enclave, but the Arkansas courts and its legislature should not abdicate its responsibilities to ensure that Western liberal rights and protections remain supreme.

The government should monitor both the rhetoric and behavior of these communities. As the Supreme Court stated in Cantwell: the freedom to believe is absolute, but the freedom to act, in the nature of things, cannot be, especially as to the safety and preservation of the American democracy.[36]
David Kennedy Houck is an attorney at Houck O'Brien LLC, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[1] See, for example, discussion of the Sonali Gardens project in London, The Evening Standard (London), Apr. 27, 2004.
[2] Marya Morris, "Muslim Community Development Initiatives," American Planning Association, Apr. 25, 2004.
[3] "Muslim Community Development Plans," Fox 16 News, Aug. 26, 2004.
[4] Ibid.
[5] Information on the Arkansas Islamic Center for Human Excellence website, accessed on Nov. 2, 2005, linked visitors to the "Islam 4 the World" website.
[6] U.S. Department of State, news release, Feb. 19, 2004.
[7] Daniel Pipes, "Muslims Only!" at Six Flags Adventure Park," www.DanielPipes.org, Sept. 10, 2004.
[8] "Arbitration Act," S.O. 1991, "Ontario Statutes and Regulations," e-Laws News, c. 17.
[9] Daniel Pipes, "Enforce Islamic Law in Canada?" The New York Sun, Sept. 27, 2005.
[10] Canadian Press News Agency, Sept. 11, 2005.
[11] Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General, news release, Nov. 15, 2005.
[12] Canadian Press News Agency, Sept. 11, 2005.
[13] See, Asifa Quaraishi and Najeeba Syeed-Miller, "No Altars: A Survey of Islamic Family Law in the United States," Islamic Family Law project, Law and Religion Program, Emory University, Atlanta, Ga.; American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism (AMILA) in partnership with the American Civil Liberties Union submitted an amicus brief to the Supreme Court on the juvenile aspect of the death penalty that included citations to Shari'a law.
[14] U.S. Department of State, news release, Feb. 19, 2004.
[15] The Wall Street Journal, Feb. 5, 2003.
[16] Khaleel Mohammed, "Assessing English Translations of the Qu'ran," Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2005, pp. 59-71.
[17] Khaled Abou El Fadl, "Islamic Law and Muslim Minorities: The Juristic Discourse on Muslim Minorities from the Second/Eighth to the Eleventh/Seventeenth Centuries," Islamic Law and Society, 1:2(1994): 141-4.
[18] Brown et al. v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954).
[19] Jackson v. Metropolitan Edison Company, 419 U.S. 345 (1974).
[20] Flagg Brothers v. Brooks, 436 U.S. 149 (1978).
[21] Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S 296 (1940), pp. 303-4.
[22] Christopher L. Eisgruber, "The Constitutional Value of Assimilation," The Columbia Law Review, Jan. 1996, pp. 87-8.
[23] Ibid., p. 91.
[24] Ibid.
[25] Ibid., pp. 89, 91.
[26] Ibid., pp. 87, 92.
[27] CNN News, Aug. 21, 1997.
[28] "The Aftermath of the April 19 Fire," Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas (redacted version: Oct. 8, 1993), U.S. Department of Justice, chap. XIII.
[29] Amir Taheri, "Islam and Democracy: The Impossible Union," The Sunday Times (London), May 23, 2004.
[30] Nimrod Raphaeli, "The Sheikh of the Slaughterers": Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi and the Al-Qa'ida Connection," Middle East Research Media Institute (MEMRI), Inquiry and Analysis Series, no. 231, July 1, 2005.
[31] "Anti-American," Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques, Center for Religious Freedom, Freedom House, chap. 4, p. 4.
[32] Mohamed Elhachmi Hamdi, "Islam and Liberal Democracy: The Limits of the Western Model," Journal of Democracy, Apr. 1996, pp. 81-5.
[33] Michael Rubin, "Islamists Are Intrinsically Anti-democratic," www.bitterlemons-international.org, June 2, 2005.
[34] Hürriyet (Istanbul), Apr. 23, 1998.
[35] Milliyet (Istanbul), June 6, 2005.
[36] Cantwell, pp. 303-4.
 
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There is no greater amount of islamophobia in the world that can be compared to that going on in P&N right now.
All the things you have mentioned in the quote above will never happen in the US.
If you really have that kind of lack of faith in your country, best pack up your bags and your family and run away to that magic Islam free country in the sky.

keep sticking your head in the sand....it seems what you do best...

Honor killings in the US by Muslim parents who feel they have been disgraced by their children are already happening here.

We no longer have Christmas parties and cannot say Merry Christmas. We have holiday parties and HAVE TO SAY Happy Holidays.

Someone has already filed a lawsuit about removing their garb for their Driver's License picture in the US.

Riots and death threats were rampant about the Quran burnings on 9/11.

And yet you say this will never happen in the United States? Gimme a break already...
 
"Exposing David Wood"?? LOL, ois that the best response you got, attacking the messenger??

Do you think that since he doesn't like Muslims it somehow negates the points he made? Speaking of exposing, when are you finally coming "out of the closet" and admiting your a muslim instead of denying it? Your attempted rebuttal with such a piss poor link has made that fact painfully obvious.

Orignal Earl can’t possibly be a Muslim, for his first response to me was: As-Salamu Alaykum. It is forbidden for a Muslim to offer this greeting to a non-Muslim. However, with soooo many interpretations of Islamic rules, I could be wrong. Why, just recently a well known non Muslim used this very greeting, ---------


AS-SALAMU ALAYKUM
6446Prez.jpg

Hehehe. Oh, lighten up Francis
 
Earl, as a Canadian you should note that your country, too, is not any less vulnerable than any other democracy.

noted..
Been there, done that.. all worked out.

As I see Islam as being primarily a political movement with the stated goal of universal totalitarian theocracy,

Ya, I caught that the first couple of times you brought it up in this thread.
 
keep sticking your head in the sand....it seems what you do best...

I think your head is stuck somewhere else..
😉
Honor killings in the US by Muslim parents who feel they have been disgraced by their children are already happening here.

You do know that honor killings are a cultural thing, not a religious thing right?
Are you going to kick out all the Hindus too?


Riots and death threats were rampant about the Quran burnings on 9/11.
And yet you say this will never happen in the United States? Gimme a break already...

Oh, I would not say riots and death threats would not happen in the US.
Death threats happen every day, usually from some Christian wackos
And most of your riots come from some kind of black/white relations.
 
Europe did not make these muslims move into their countries. Whether they were displaced or choose to freely move there, Muslims should be more accepting of their new surroundings. It has already been documented frequently that many Muslims do NOT want to adapt to their new homes. This is what has started the riots in France a few years ago.

And yet again, why cannot people in Denmark freely express themselves by depicting Muhammed as they choose? This does not break any Danish laws. Yet, the Muslims in Denmark want the Danish citizens to respect the Islam's belief that no pictures of their God be drawn.

What have Muslims given up to show their tolerance for their new homes? Many Muslim parents are unhappy that their children are being Westernized (with their clothes, music, relationships with non-muslims, etc)...They have a hard time treating women with respect dignity as most modern societies treat them. They are offended when the word Christmas is uttered. They want to change US holidays to reflect Muslim holidays. Muslim women want to take their driver license pictures with their face covered. They do not understand the concept of freedom of expression of those who do not share their same view points.

No one made these Muslims move to the United States and yet because they are not happy here, they want to make US citizens adapt to these beliefs that contradict the way of life here.

spacejamz, it is true that Europe did not make anyone move into their countries. But they allowed Muslims from their colonies and elsewhere to migrate and become citizens of that respective countries. Which means that the Muslims should enjoy the same rights as every citizen, which includes what I mentioned in my previous post.

Muslims should indeed be accepting of their new surroudings, but it is a two-way street. The nation should also be accepting of the newcomers as well as second/third generation Muslims. This includes not ridiculing the faith of your fellow citizens, as in Denmark.

With respect to specifics, there is no excuse at all for the death threats and violence committed on the back of the Danish cartoons. The French riots was due to socio-economic status rather than religion.

I am unsure what you mean parents are unhappy about children being "Westernised". If you mean tight/revealing clothes, no parent would be happy about their daughters dressing up with skank. I personally wear jeans/slacks/t-shirt. Is that a Westernised attire? You do realize how popular Nike/Levis/etc are popular in most Muslim nations? That Western music is super popular amongst Muslims? There are Muslim rap singers. I know of a House artist who is Muslim. Muslims are on almost every educational campus and associate/are friends with every member of the community.

Women are mistreated by misognystic morons who happen to be Muslims. Every community has its fair share of misognysts who mistreat women. I apologize but being Muslim does not make you above and beyond a human. You will find perverts and a-holes.

Muslims would definitely like holidays for their religious festivals. That is not a ridiculous demand, and we would like everyone to participate. Why can Eid NOT be part of an American tradition? I think that would be awesome! That does not mean we want to get rid of Christmas and other religious festival. That is an unwarranted accusation. Rather, many Muslims participate in those festivals.

I hope I cleared most of your major points, and I hope this helped some of your views. 🙂
 
Do you think Muslims should form their own army within the US like the Mormons did and swear an Oath of vengeance against the United States


Btw for the temple

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Italy_Temple

Technically just about 7 miles from Vatican center. Some Catholics are upset about it, but most are accepting, as many Catholic clergy have come forward to make fair comparisons (like the Catholic buildings in Salt Lake City).



Its funny you bring up the standing army Mormons had and the Oath of Vengeance in the same breath as they are completely unrelated. The Oath of Vengeance was in reference to God's vengeance (not man's) to the members of the Mob that assassinated Joseph Smith, (the church's first prophet who claimed to have spoke to God and the resurrected Jesus Christ face to face and that through their guidance translated the Book of Mormon and re-established the Church of Jesus Christ) and his brother Hyrum Smith. These oaths were a verbal prayer asking for God for justice. they stopped in the 1920's (pretty sure all the members of the mob were probably dead by natural causes by then.)

The standing army the church raised had to do with Utah not being a territory of the US at the time. No battle between the US and the "mormon army" was ever fought. All conflicts were negotiated, because mormon's wanted peace nothing more.

Of course any mormon anti you'd like to try to use to tare down my points of comparison I can easily handle. I know the in and outs of my religion.

--------------------

@Routon


Of any Church that believes that Christ is the savior and son of God, believe that he created the heavens and the earth, or in other worlds, of any Christian Church, Mormonism has the most similarities to Islam in regards to principles of the importance of tradition, family, and sacrifice?

I remember a man that converted from Islam to mormonism in my youth in California. He stated that it was easy for him to become "mormon" but harder for him to finally accept Christ as part of being a true Christian.

In many respects the only difference between mormons and muslims is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I was in the Military I briefly served with 5-20 Infantry Divison, 3rd SBCT (Stryker Brigade Combat Team), 2nd ID. Joining them at the tail end of the tour as part of George Bush's big numbers push in the tail end of 2007. I joined the unit for the last three months of their tour (lucky me). Our translator was a Turk, he was muslim and highly respected (mostly for being turk) by locals in Bakubah, Iraq. One night in the tent/barrack some of the guys gave him a hard time about going on about a girl he fell in love with before the war started in 2001. They were teenagers, but he believed that he would find her after he would go home and marry her. because of his belief in marriage and only wanting to be with one woman he was made fun of by some of the soldiers in my unit. I stuck up for him in the conversation. My beliefs as a mormon rely heavily on the belief in the sanctity of marriage.

Later on he would translate for me when our squad stayed overnight in the home of a local family. I repaired a farming tool with extra 550 cord I brought with me. On the handle I wrote an Arabic phrase which hung in a picture frame in their home. Through the translator a father and son spoke to me about the repair I had done. They thanked me and asked if I knew what I wrote. I responded that I did not. The translator told me that it was an Islamic prayer thanking God for all they possessed.

This encounter built trust between me and the residence of the home.



So back to the point that I addressed before about the need for Islam to improve their PR skills. To most of America it seems that the moderate Muslims are largely silent here in the US. Except for when it comes to building this Mosque/ Gym thing.

You argue that the only factor for allowing it built is the law of the land. Nothing to say of the emotional impact it has on others. Such a disconnect from others is the impression people feel from the extremist.

Putting blame on people's perception changes nothing.

Saying "you're wrong" or "You must" (as in "You must accept us".) does not resolve the concern. If anything, that elevates tension.

If the mosque is to be built PR must come into play.

Denounce extremist as non-muslim from the mouths of respectable leadership. If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't represent Islam then someone in Islam needs to kick up more face time in the national spot like.

A book tour would be nice. with some manuscript that points out the fallies of Islam practiced by the extremist, perhaps even talk about the dedication of Islamic men to the cause of American Freedom.

The problem with most Islamic PR that goes on in the US is that Islam is too conservative for the left and too liberal for the right. In order to stand out in the middle you need to have charisma and smart points.

Take some pointers from the Mormons really. Coming up this weekend in the semi annual general conference of the church. It is broadcast world wide on a number of different networks. Check you local listings for it. Take notes on global PR in action especially during the breaks between sessions.

People don't look at the old men that lead our church and say "those guys look like they're going to blow me up."

I'd love to watch some Islamic programming in english that told feel good stories and old men imparting their wisdom onto a younger generation.

It does not help that a lot of the areas in the middle east barely reach into the modern age. Which is sad considering that practitioners of Islam used to LEAD scientific development! What happened?

The areas that due reach into the first world, such places like Dubai appear to be greedy rich tycoons no better than venture capitalist engaged in hostile takeovers.

All I'm saying if that I think you should understand how valid the fears of people are. To ignore the concerns of others, especially when introducing something to a emotionally scared region, is unemphatic.

Whenever change is brought about against the will of the people is takes a little bit of what makes America great with it.

If they want that mosque built, they'll need better PR and to publiclly denounce supporters of the attack during 9/11 as being non muslim.

I want to hear these words by out spoken muslims:

"To support the attacks of 9/11 is to go against the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and upon us all. To wage war against America means waging war against true Islam. Jihad is the spiritual battle of faith in maintaining oneself spiritually and not bringing physical attacks to others. To use terror to incite change is to lose Jihad and become an infidel. We stand together in America as Islam, Jews, Christians, and others as one. We are all the seed of Abraham, let there be peace."
 
Btw for the temple

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Italy_Temple

Technically just about 7 miles from Vatican center. Some Catholics are upset about it, but most are accepting, as many Catholic clergy have come forward to make fair comparisons (like the Catholic buildings in Salt Lake City).

So you are building a temple in Rome, not in Vatican City like you said.


The standing army the church raised had to do with Utah not being a territory of the US at the time. No battle between the US and the "mormon army" was ever fought. All conflicts were negotiated, because mormon's wanted peace nothing more.

Of course any mormon anti you'd like to try to use to tare down my points of comparison I can easily handle. I know the in and outs of my religion.


The Utah War, also known as the Utah Expedition, Buchanan's Blunder,[1] the Mormon War,[2] or the Mormon Rebellion[3] was an armed confrontation between Latter-day Saint ("Mormon") settlers in the Utah Territory and the armed forces of the United States government. The confrontation lasted from May 1857 until July 1858. While there were casualties, mostly non-Mormon civilians, the "war" had no battles, and was resolved through negotiation.

From 1857 to 1858, the President James Buchanan administration sought to quell a rebellion in Utah Territory by Mormon settlers. He sent US forces there, what was known as the Utah Expedition. The Mormons, fearful that the large US military force had been sent to annihilate them, blocked the army's entrance into the Salt Lake Valley. While the confrontation between the Mormon militia, called the Nauvoo Legion, and the U.S. Army involved some destruction of property and a few brief skirmishes in what is today southwestern Wyoming, no battles occurred between the contending military forces.

Despite this, the confrontation was not bloodless. At the height of the tensions, on September 11, 1857, more than 120 California-bound settlers from Arkansas, Missouri and other states, including unarmed men, women and children, were killed in remote southwestern Utah by a group of local Mormon militiamen. They first claimed that the migrants were killed by Native Americans. This event was later called the Mountain Meadows massacre and the motives behind the incident remain a mystery. Will Bagley makes the case that Mormon Prophet Brigham Young had direct complicity in the incident. Sally Denton maintains the massacre occurred as a result of simple greed, while Richard Turley concludes that the blame for the massacre resided with geographically remote and overzealous local leadership, and believes Young would have stopped the massacre if he could.

The "Aiken Massacre" took place the following month. In October 1857, Mormons arrested six Californians traveling through Utah and charged them with being spies for the US Army. They were released, but later murdered and robbed of their stock and $25,000.[4][5][dead link][6] Other incidents of violence have also been linked to the Utah War, including an Indian attack on the Latter-day Saint mission of Fort Limhi in eastern Oregon Territory. They killed two Mormons and wounded several others. The historian Brigham Madsen notes, "[T]he responsibility for the [Fort Limhi raid] lay mainly with the Bannock."[7] David Bigler concludes that the raid was probably instigated by members of the Utah Expedition who were trying to replenish their stores of livestock which had been stolen by Mormon raiders.[8][9] Taking all incidents into account, MacKinnon estimates that approximately 150 people died as a direct result of the year-long Utah War, including the 120 migrants killed at Mountain Meadows. He points out that this was close to the number of people killed during the seven-year contemporaneous struggle in "Bleeding Kansas."[10]

In the end, negotiations between the United States and the Latter-day Saints resulted in a full pardon for the Mormons, the transfer of Utah's governorship from church President Brigham Young to non-Mormon Alfred Cumming, and the peaceful entrance of the US Army into Utah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence

My point though was that the Mormons fought a very long and bloody battle to get where they are today.
 
spacejamz, it is true that Europe did not make anyone move into their countries. But they allowed Muslims from their colonies and elsewhere to migrate and become citizens of that respective countries. Which means that the Muslims should enjoy the same rights as every citizen, which includes what I mentioned in my previous post.

Muslims should indeed be accepting of their new surroudings, but it is a two-way street. The nation should also be accepting of the newcomers as well as second/third generation Muslims. This includes not ridiculing the faith of your fellow citizens, as in Denmark.

With respect to specifics, there is no excuse at all for the death threats and violence committed on the back of the Danish cartoons. The French riots was due to socio-economic status rather than religion.

I am unsure what you mean parents are unhappy about children being "Westernised". If you mean tight/revealing clothes, no parent would be happy about their daughters dressing up with skank. I personally wear jeans/slacks/t-shirt. Is that a Westernised attire? You do realize how popular Nike/Levis/etc are popular in most Muslim nations? That Western music is super popular amongst Muslims? There are Muslim rap singers. I know of a House artist who is Muslim. Muslims are on almost every educational campus and associate/are friends with every member of the community.

Women are mistreated by misognystic morons who happen to be Muslims. Every community has its fair share of misognysts who mistreat women. I apologize but being Muslim does not make you above and beyond a human. You will find perverts and a-holes.

Muslims would definitely like holidays for their religious festivals. That is not a ridiculous demand, and we would like everyone to participate. Why can Eid NOT be part of an American tradition? I think that would be awesome! That does not mean we want to get rid of Christmas and other religious festival. That is an unwarranted accusation. Rather, many Muslims participate in those festivals.

I hope I cleared most of your major points, and I hope this helped some of your views. 🙂


Ridicule is going to happen. If you can't take a joke and give one back, you should go elsewhere to not be subjected to jokes in my opinion.

As for European countries, they are completely different than America. If a European country decides they do not want Muslims there, then they can do that for all I care No different than Muslim countries doing the same thing against non-Muslims. Do you know what would happen to me if I showed up in pretty much any ME country and said on a public street, "I'm an Atheist!!!" I would end up lynched, stoned, and possibly beheaded. Even without mentioning that, I would be worse than any second class citizen.

However, that is there, and this is here. America we respect your rights and you respect ours. That is really all there is. You say your Muslim, I say I'm Atheist, and then we have a beer or not. I don't try to feed you pork, and you don't try to preach to me and it's all gravy.

But, by the same token, if Muslim women want to where a Hjiab in public, all the power to them. If they do not want to, and any Muslim American man tries to deny them that right, I am going to stand up for that woman any way I can. I will defend the American rights of every American citizen equally in this country.

For a frame of reference, I develop computer software. In my office is a old school Knight of Columbus Templar follower, a Jew, a Unitarian, a couple devout Catholics and one not so devout, and a Muslim. There are a few Christians, and a couple of Atheists like myself. We all get along swimmingly. The Muslim I know is a real tech head geek. He loves his tech toys and spends some major bucks on them. We talk all day on that stuff. I know quite a bit about Muslims through him, beyond research, and continue to learn some more about his religion preference all the time. Last month he was describing this wedding ceremony he was being a "guard" for that I thought was absolutely the strangest ceremony I ever heard of. He and a couple other guys dress up like some bad-ass spiritual guards to protect the "maidens" from the evil men looking to have their way. The maiden being the bride to be and the evil man the groom. The man looking for his wife must confront him to do battle and then steal the maiden away for her to be his. It was one elaborate ceremony and the video from it was fascinating. It was some ancient tradition for the ceremony.

But I will say this. Too many religious people around here have some terribly thin skin. I'm not pointing fingers at any one group because christian, muslims, scientologists, and many others are like this. There is a line to be drawn with your right to believe in a religion, and when that right starts interfering with the rights of others. Remember the Constitution does not grant you the right to practice your religion, only to believe in it. When the rights of one trample the rights of another, it is no longer a right.
 
My point though was that the Mormons fought a very long and bloody battle to get where they are today.

So you are saying Muslims need to spill more blood? Ok im just being silly now, but i had to 😛 This thread is so off track, but i think its gone in a better direction then intended 🙂
 
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