A Muslim's perspective

[Orignal Earl]

hmm, you try to post anti-mormon response. You post a string if searched would produce anti mormon literature.

Wow. So by this same argument we should get all our facts about Islam through its opponents?

A simple read of the bible would show the character of Jesus for what he is.

Didn't you see that Nytimes article thats been posted over the web, between jews and mormons we know more about world religions than any other religious groups.

We should bring an atheist from the Intelligent Design thread in here to moderate. Since they scored on average a point higher than mormons or jews.

I'm really not convinced you know anything you're talking about. You are more of an antagonistic presence to this thread than anything. Your defense of Islam is actually a discredit to it.

Especially, of my entire response you choose to attack our fundamental belief in Christ.

Hook me up with some links from some of the major Christian sites that agreed with you then.
I'll give them a read. I did not know my search was from all anti Mormon sites
From what I seen, the Jesus from the Bible was quite different from the Mormon Jesus.
Can you tell me then at least where this anti Mormon site is wrong?
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

 

[FTM0305]

Hook me up with some links from some of the major Christian sites that agreed with you then.
I'll give them a read. I did not know my search was from all anti Mormon sites
From what I seen, the Jesus from the Bible was quite different from the Mormon Jesus.
Can you tell me then at least where this anti Mormon site is wrong?
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

All of it is inaccurate trash.

Worst kind of trash I've seen.

This is wikipedia all over again. You are lazy and do no fact checking.

I guess you also ignored my comment before.
I guess this is the exact same logic you would have everyone apply to Islam.

How can you ask for understanding if you yourself cannot return that same understanding.

There is nothing I can really do here. I've presented the perception of people today and given history to show that Islam today is no where near persecuted in the united states as Mormonism once was and to some degree (as you have shown, still is).

No one is sympathizing with a group that does not care for its fellow americans enough to stand with them.

At least Routan was trying. You are whats wrong with this debate.


For information on mormonism:

www.lds.org
www.mormon.org
www.providentliving.org

Since you don't seem to know much about what we believe get a free copy of the bible (King James Version)
www.mormon.org/free-bible
and a Book of Mormon
www.mormon.org/book-of-mormon/

Do you know where I can get a free Koran/Quran? I'd read it cover to cover for better understanding, but I'm not sure there is any "official" english translations.

 

[Orignal Earl]

All of it is inaccurate trash.

Worst kind of trash I've seen.

This is wikipedia all over again. You are lazy and do no fact checking.

I guess you also ignored my comment before.
I guess this is the exact same logic you would have everyone apply to Islam.

How can you ask for understanding if you yourself cannot return that same understanding.

There is nothing I can really do here. I've presented the perception of people today and given history to show that Islam today is no where near persecuted in the united states as Mormonism once was and to some degree (as you have shown, still is).

No one is sympathizing with a group that does not care for its fellow americans enough to stand with them.

At least Routan was trying. You are whats wrong with this debate.


For information on mormonism:

www.lds.org
www.mormon.org
www.providentliving.org

Since you don't seem to know much about what we believe get a free copy of the bible (King James Version)
www.mormon.org/free-bible
and a Book of Mormon
www.mormon.org/book-of-mormon/

Do you know where I can get a free Koran/Quran? I'd read it cover to cover for better understanding, but I'm not sure there is any "official" english translations.

Did you just tell me I'm full of BS and then give me a bunch of Mormon sites?

Can you show me any major Christian sites that agree with you?

Is this wrong?

http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

"Is Mormonism Christian?" is a very important question. The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.

If you are a Mormon, please realize that CARM is not trying to attack you, your character, or the sincerity of your belief. If you are a non-Mormon looking into Mormonism, or if you are a Christian who is simply researching Mormonism, then this paper should be of help to you.

The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (that there is only one God, Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically, the gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many gods there are, the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.

Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is God in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.

Because Mormonism denies the biblical truth of who God is, who Jesus is, how forgiveness of sins is attained, and what the gospel is, the Mormon is not Christian -- in spite of all his claims that he is Christian.

Why is Mormonism a non-Christian religion? It is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.

CARM does not deny that Mormons are good people, that they worship "a" god, that they share common words with Christians, that they help their people, and that they do many good things. But that isn't what makes someone Christian. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJV). Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus -- not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Iraqi's love us. They are the kindest people I have ever met. Its no invasion it was a liberation of the tyrannical run of a mad man (Saddam Hussein).

Its true we were there for too long, but don't tell me that we were unwelcomed.

I know for myself that we helped those people. Bakubah was the declared capital of Al Qeda in Iraq at that time. My unit blew most of them to kingdom come and liberated the city and supplied them with goods to ease recovery, detonated IED's left by Al Qeda supporters, and helped them root out lingering cells.

That's strange, you were in the Stryker Brigade?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Did you just tell me I'm full of BS and then give me a bunch of Mormon sites?

Can you show me any major Christian sites that agree with you?

Is this wrong?

http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

IF you are ever going to use a site on the net as reference, NEVER use CARM, they hate Muslims, Mormons and Jews more than Spidey (well, perhaps not Jews but i want to cash in on this whole "Help, I'm being opressed" thingy)

 

[routan]

All of it is inaccurate trash.

Worst kind of trash I've seen.

This is wikipedia all over again. You are lazy and do no fact checking.

I guess you also ignored my comment before.
I guess this is the exact same logic you would have everyone apply to Islam.

How can you ask for understanding if you yourself cannot return that same understanding.

There is nothing I can really do here. I've presented the perception of people today and given history to show that Islam today is no where near persecuted in the united states as Mormonism once was and to some degree (as you have shown, still is).

No one is sympathizing with a group that does not care for its fellow americans enough to stand with them.

At least Routan was trying. You are whats wrong with this debate.


For information on mormonism:

www.lds.org
www.mormon.org
www.providentliving.org

Since you don't seem to know much about what we believe get a free copy of the bible (King James Version)
www.mormon.org/free-bible
and a Book of Mormon
www.mormon.org/book-of-mormon/

Do you know where I can get a free Koran/Quran? I'd read it cover to cover for better understanding, but I'm not sure there is any "official" english translations.

FTM0305, I would not like to interrupt the discussion between you and Original Earl.

However, I just wanted to clarify: Original Earl has not (to my knowledge) suggested he is a Muslim.

Also wanted to highlight: please revisit this thread. The vast majority of references are inaccurate and trash.

And lastly wanted to provide you with the following link:
http://explorethequran.com/request-a-quran/american-public.html
There is no "official" translation of the Quran, as the language of the Quran is in Fusha Arabic, and words are always lost in transltion.

Hope this helps.

 

[Orignal Earl]

IF you are ever going to use a site on the net as reference, NEVER use CARM, they hate Muslims, Mormons and Jews more than Spidey (well, perhaps not Jews but i want to cash in on this whole "Help, I'm being opressed" thingy)

Ah, once again I did not know that.
But I do know better then trying to get in between someone and their faith.
And I of just let it slide.

You sound like a good person FTM and in the end thats what makes up any religion.
It's the good people who are sitting beside each other in that little church, temple, synagogue, and mosque.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Ah, once again I did not know that.
But I do know better then trying to get in between someone and their faith.
And I of just let it slide.

You sound like a good person FTM and in the end thats what makes up any religion.
It's the good people who are sitting beside each other in that little church, temple, synagogue, and mosque.

Well i suppose you could have done worse, there are certainly worse sites out there than that but for general information i would use a non religious site all together, religious sites reek of bias for their target audience (obviously).

I'm not so sure that i agree with the second part though, not that FTM isn't a good person, i have very little doubt that he is, even if he's wearing holy underwear. 😉

 

[FTM0305]

That's strange, you were in the Stryker Brigade?

I was in a stryker brigade. There are a few. I was in 3rd SBCT.

 

[FTM0305]

Stryker as in the 8 wheeled vehicles with slat armor for catching RPGs with a few variants. Mortor, infantry, recon, etc.

 

[FTM0305]

FTM0305, I would not like to interrupt the discussion between you and Original Earl.

However, I just wanted to clarify: Original Earl has not (to my knowledge) suggested he is a Muslim.

Also wanted to highlight: please revisit this thread. The vast majority of references are inaccurate and trash.

And lastly wanted to provide you with the following link:
http://explorethequran.com/request-a-quran/american-public.html
There is no "official" translation of the Quran, as the language of the Quran is in Fusha Arabic, and words are always lost in transltion.

Hope this helps.

Routon,

Good to know. Earl is not being very open to dialog and rather attack my religion than see the comparisons I try to make.

Sadly, the link you provide no longer gives free Quran's away. It asks for about $9 in shipping. I'm sure I can find one digital on google books. I'll have to read through.

Don't get me wrong at all in my posts. I have many Islamic friends. I respect Islam.

The points I've tried to make are mostly about perspective. Mormons have good PR skills, but there are plenty of people that try to denounce us otherwise. There will always be those that oppose Islam.

It is held as a belief in my religion that those that will live in the presence of God will come from a variety of religions. We are here on earth to be judge of our goodness not how much we know. Knowledge does make one more accountable for their actions. But in the end I believe that God will save all those that are truly good.

In the bible Jesus says, "Not every man that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall inherit the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 (variation depending on version)

 

[FTM0305]

Well i suppose you could have done worse, there are certainly worse sites out there than that but for general information i would use a non religious site all together, religious sites reek of bias for their target audience (obviously).

I'm not so sure that i agree with the second part though, not that FTM isn't a good person, i have very little doubt that he is, even if he's wearing holy underwear. 😉

When I was in the military my church issued Military styled garments (holy underwear) were the envy of my entire platoon! While everyone else have what look like tan tighty-whities I had tan boxer briefs!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I was in a stryker brigade. There are a few. I was in 3rd SBCT.

I figured as much, you know, we chewed some of the same dirt in Mosul too back in '04 and Baku ba in '07.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

When I was in the military my church issued Military styled garments (holy underwear) were the envy of my entire platoon! While everyone else have what look like tan tighty-whities I had tan boxer briefs!

Heh, good that you take it with a sense of humour. FTR, we always have boxers, full sized, it's kinda needed considering the size of our balls. 😀

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Stryker as in the 8 wheeled vehicles with slat armor for catching RPGs with a few variants. Mortor, infantry, recon, etc.

We're a task force, we pretty much do anything we're ordered to do but usually it's recon/first attacks/point attacks/rescue. In Afghanistan it's been everything from transports to guards to recon to targeters for air strikes. In Iraq it was first attack and seekouts along with counterfire targeters.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Routon,

Good to know. Earl is not being very open to dialog and rather attack my religion than see the comparisons I try to make.

If you will recall, this started with me saying a true Christian would not think Jesus would approve of the Iraq war.
You said that Jesus would of because Jesus was violent.
I assumed this must be a Mormon thing then because I had never heard of Jesus being violent before. (he may of chased out some people with sticks but he sure wasn't into killing)
I have heard from lots of Christians that Mormons are not really Christians
So I looked up Mormon Jesus and after 3 pages of checking links all of them agreed.
I can see how Christians can rationalize that if they are attacked it is ok to defend yourself. (even thought I'm not quite sure Jesus would)

But the US was not attacked from Iraq.
I would argue the same with Catholics, Lutherans and Baptists.
And there are plenty of so called Christians (Baptists etc) in Iraq who are there believing they are doing Jesus's work

What you perceive as an attack was me just trying to discuss.
And I am open to any discussion.

 

[KIAman]

How about the country with the largest Muslim population in the world (~202.9 million)?

Damn, I took too long to check this thread. You mean Indonesia? Here's what they did and props to them.

Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim nation with 210 million Muslims. In its fight against terrorism, the Indonesian government set up a counterterrorism unit, called detachment 88. The unit is funded and trained by the American government. What makes it unique is that its 400 operatives are Muslim. As part of the deradicalisation process of terrorism prisoners, the operatives are trained to be spiritual counsellors in convincing militants in the error of their ways.

The effectiveness of this policy is illustrated by the fact that 50% of 400 terrorism prisoners have either cooperated or renounced violence.

Good for them, but please refer to my first post that I am looking for proactive fighting against terrorism without external influence or persuation, but out of their own love of peace and stability.

In this case, America had the initiative.

And Earl, you say ALL muslim countries do this? Can you point out a particularly distinguishing one?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Damn, I took too long to check this thread. You mean Indonesia? Here's what they did and props to them.



Good for them, but please refer to my first post that I am looking for proactive fighting against terrorism without external influence or persuation, but out of their own love of peace and stability.

In this case, America had the initiative.

And Earl, you say ALL muslim countries do this? Can you point out a particularly distinguishing one?

Saudi Arabia
http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/newsletter2004/saudi-relations-interest-04-30.html

In case you want more just type the name of the country you don't think is and add fight terrorism into Google.
You have to remember too, countries got their own terrorists that may not be considered so by the US

 

[nonlnear]

would HAVE

Please make it stop!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

would HAVE

Please make it stop!

I would of if i could of.

 

[FTM0305]

I figured as much, you know, we chewed some of the same dirt in Mosul too back in '04 and Baku ba in '07.

Seriously? I joined the unit from the rear detachment in Ft Lewis, Wa (I had just been dropped from Special Warefare Training Center in Ft Bragg). They had only three months left in 07 when I got to Iraq. Just finished what they called Operation Ripper 1, I went out on operation ripper 2 which was uneventful, but being part of QRF my platoon was called out to escort EOD a lot in the after math to clean up bombs.

When I'm not at work I got to upload some photos I took while crusing down Bakuba in the stryker. Mostly pictures of the city shot to hell.

 

[KIAman]

Saudi Arabia
http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/newsletter2004/saudi-relations-interest-04-30.html

In case you want more just type the name of the country you don't think is and add fight terrorism into Google.
You have to remember too, countries got their own terrorists that may not be considered so by the US

I don't think you get it. None of these countries proactively did anything without the "global fight against terror" initiative by the USA. The anti-terrorist movement is funded, trained and pushed by the USA.

If terrorism is a world wide threat to every nation, why is it the Western Nation's responsibility to light the fire to get nations to fight back?

Instead, the lack of action lead to proliferation and rooting of terrorism to the point where some of them are recognized as political government entities!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I don't think you get it. None of these countries proactively did anything without the "global fight against terror" initiative by the USA. The anti-terrorist movement is funded, trained and pushed by the USA.

If terrorism is a world wide threat to every nation, why is it the Western Nation's responsibility to light the fire to get nations to fight back?

Instead, the lack of action lead to proliferation and rooting of terrorism to the point where some of them are recognized as political government entities!

No, son, they were fought in other nations and BY other nations for a good two decades before the US was attacked, they have lived with it since ten years after WWII.

FUCK, the LTTE, Hindus were the ones commiting the most terrorist acts 10 to fucking 1 before the glorious invasion of Iraq because as cheney said, it was that or a mushroom cloud, showed pics of balsa RC planes and said they were UAV's, they were fucking held together with duct tape but over 50% of the US people didn't care..

I know why you did it, you were scared, who wouldn't be? You were told by your leaders that they had weapons of mass destructions in all directions and means to deliver them, you were even told that the duct taped UAV's were their means of delivery... hell you were even told that you had to act NOW or the next sign would be a mushroom cloud over New York....

NO other nation bought that, not even the UK even though it was "MI6" that produced the intelligence, everyone responsible isn't with the service, nor is Blair, he didn't even get a higher up job, he turned it down because he knew the result of that.

Then...

The US made sure that the terrorist organisations grew stronger by attacking Afghanistan, leaving it when it was almost ready to be finished, leaving it with 13k troops and no air support and letting the Taliban and Al Quaida spread all over the place and you know what, they did, even spread to Iraq, a place that had NO terrorists before (well they had one in the Kurdish US controlled area) NOW means to even defend themselves properly much less attack any other nation.

If you STILL buy that... kill yourself, that is the only advice i, as a Captain that was the first foot on ground troop in both areas can say, just do that, you are too fucking stupid to live.

 

[FTM0305]

I know why you did it, you were scared, who wouldn't be? You were told by your leaders that they had weapons of mass destructions in all directions and means to deliver them, you were even told that the duct taped UAV's were their means of delivery... hell you were even told that you had to act NOW or the next sign would be a mushroom cloud over New York....

I see what you did there.

V

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I see what you did there.

V

What? I don't get it? I'm TFB.

And that is the truth on this matter, people were not scared because of the very 9/11 situation, it would have been easy to calm them down and they were calmed down but beaten into a frenzy and scared to death over the massive threats delivered EVERY DAY by their own politicians of how Iraq was on the edge of attacking the USA.

Court martial the fucks, send them to me, i'll dispose of them like some were disposed of during the Kosovo war, they might find them in the fossil records.

But no, they are like Chavez and Berlusconi, any lie no matter how much it costs, no matter how much they profit from it, no matter how many people die from it, they are ok, ALWAYS.

It's fucking pathetic.