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9/11 Conspiracy
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noto12ious
Golden Member
Actually, there are many reputable persons disputing / questioning the official story.
Here are just a few: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhoAreWe.html
noto12ious
Golden Member
LOL!
Fire fighter: "here we go again"
Another fire fighter: "Bomb in the building, start clearing out"
Background voices: "secondary device..."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928&q=9%2F11+bomb
************************************************************************
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcshake.mpg
(12 seconds before WTC1 collapse, the tripod shakes, debris falls off the right side of the building)
It corroborates with this:
video link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=eyewitness
(Time frame 52:50 - 55:10 , 3 explosions can be heard roughly 12 seconds before WTC1 collapse + smoke rising from the streets)
noto12ious
Golden Member
Interesting...you're in denial.
http://www.mypetgoat.tv/video/Bomb_Montage.WMV
also: http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/vide...floor26th_firefighter_high_quality.wmv
LcarsSystem
Senior member
I find it absolutely hilarious that ntdz will go to any lengths to deny something which there is reputable proof of, just to be an apologist for the Bush administration. I don't care that they are republican, if they were democrats I'd still be suspicious of them. The FACT of the matter is that there are too many unanswered questions and when these questions arise the administration just sweeps it under the rug. Anyone with half a brain should be able to realize that they obviously know something they haven't told us or are behind it themselves. You can believe whoever the hell you like, but I will believe the people on location when this stuff went down, I will believe those firefighters who went into that building and saved as many people as possible and some died in the process. I'll use some Bush sheep logic here, why do you denigrate the sacrifice of those brave public servants? Your obviously calling that firefighter a liar because you said he didn't know "wtf he was talking about", ohhhh wait thats right, ntdz was there when 9/11 happened, and was also rushing into the buildings trying to save as many people as he could. Why don't you give us your version of events.
LcarsSystem
Senior member
Thanks for the links, I am going to circulate these.
LcarsSystem
Senior member
Come on, cough it up.
I have two questions: First, why fly a plane into a building that is being bombed? And why if you are going to bomb a building after flying a plane into it, why wait an hour to destroy the building? What are you going to tell me that terrorists wanted to let the greatest number of people escape before destroying the building?
Second don?t you think that if the building was starting to collapse due to the metal fatigue from the fire that you "might" hear explosions? What do you think that when the superstructure of the building started to fail that the concrete and all secondary structure would not make ANY noise when it failed?
Many, many intelligent people who have no reason to defend Bush or the government (unlike plaehorse74 and ntdz who fail on both counts 😉) have refuted this and the other various conspiracy theories. It's not a matter of the obvious facts vs the foaming at the mouth Bush supporters...the obvious facts are on the other side, and the only foaming at the mouth comes from the conspiracy nuts.
In several of these threads, I've tried to inject what I see as reason into the debate. There are several logical and factual flaws with the conspiracy theories, but no matter how many times I bring them up, this bullshit keeps popping up. Because the people who post it and believe in it feel better doing so...it's more like religion than logical analysis. So let's try a different approach...one that I believe is the strongest argument against 9/11 being some sort of government conspiracy. Ready?
Bush and a lot of the government is incompetent and couldn't tie their own shoelaces without professional assistance. They can't do airport security without strip searching grandmothers. They can't invade a 3rd world country without getting a lot of our soldiers killed. They can't conduct a marginally illegal surveillance program without it being plastered all over the front page of the New York Times. They can't even catch the leader of our greatest enemy. If anyone should agree with those statements, it's the conspiracy nuts. And yet, for some reason, Bush and the government have managed to pull off what would be the greatest secret operation EVER.
Just let that sink in for a moment. The NSA wiretapping program was revealed because some people involved thought it was wrong. But apparently none of what must have been thousands of Americans involved in a 9/11 conspiracy have figured that killed thousands of their fellow Americans was a big deal. Bush can't even run a proper occupation when he was told, ahead of time, exactly what he would need to do. And yet somehow his government managed to pull off a large scale secret operation without anyone finding out. Forget for a moment all the nuanced arguments for and against the official story...do we REALLY think the government could pull something like this off? History would suggest not...especially in this country.
In several of these threads, I've tried to inject what I see as reason into the debate. There are several logical and factual flaws with the conspiracy theories, but no matter how many times I bring them up, this bullshit keeps popping up. Because the people who post it and believe in it feel better doing so...it's more like religion than logical analysis. So let's try a different approach...one that I believe is the strongest argument against 9/11 being some sort of government conspiracy. Ready?
Bush and a lot of the government is incompetent and couldn't tie their own shoelaces without professional assistance. They can't do airport security without strip searching grandmothers. They can't invade a 3rd world country without getting a lot of our soldiers killed. They can't conduct a marginally illegal surveillance program without it being plastered all over the front page of the New York Times. They can't even catch the leader of our greatest enemy. If anyone should agree with those statements, it's the conspiracy nuts. And yet, for some reason, Bush and the government have managed to pull off what would be the greatest secret operation EVER.
Just let that sink in for a moment. The NSA wiretapping program was revealed because some people involved thought it was wrong. But apparently none of what must have been thousands of Americans involved in a 9/11 conspiracy have figured that killed thousands of their fellow Americans was a big deal. Bush can't even run a proper occupation when he was told, ahead of time, exactly what he would need to do. And yet somehow his government managed to pull off a large scale secret operation without anyone finding out. Forget for a moment all the nuanced arguments for and against the official story...do we REALLY think the government could pull something like this off? History would suggest not...especially in this country.
JeepinEd
Senior member
STOP IT! Your'e making too much sense!
Logic has nothing to do with this.
Bush personally arranged for the bombing of these buildings. He also planted a bomb on the flight that crashed in the field.
This is all part of his plan to take over the world!
I must now use my secret exit, as the black helicopters are hovering over my roof!
I'll be in touch from my secret location......
P.S. Beware of Twinkies! The cream has micro GPS devices that Bush uses to track you!
Now where is my tinfoil hat......
noto12ious
Golden Member
1) "First, why fly a plane into a building that is being bombed? And why if you are going to bomb a building after flying a plane into it, why wait an hour to destroy the building?"
Why would they detonate the building right as the planes struck? You can't fool the public that way. They wait an hour to give it the illusion it was due to planes. Why was Molten steel was found under WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 (which continued to burn for weeks / months at ground zero)? ... NIST and FEMA have admitted the steel did not reach melting temperatures on those upper floors. It's well documented.
2) "Second don?t you think that if the building was starting to collapse due to the metal fatigue from the fire that you "might" hear explosions?"
Watch the video clips. The explosions occurred many minutes before the towers started "collapse"... and in the case of WTC1, 3 explosions could be distinctly heard across the Hudson River 12 seconds before "collapse" even started. There were even witnesses who reported explosions in the basements that pushed them upwards (google William Rodriguez 9/11). To this very day the government has denied any of these explosions took place. That fact alone should be setting off a red flag in your mind.
But why go through all that trouble and create a huge elaborate (and apparently easily seen) conspiracy. A bomb was already detonated in the WTC basement. What stopped someone from using a much larger one, which would take care of the building? This argument doesn't even remotely pass the Occam's Razor test.
1. steel doesn't need to melt to weaken
2. i don't believe you're familiar with the effect of a furnace.
2) "Second don?t you think that if the building was starting to collapse due to the metal fatigue from the fire that you "might" hear explosions?"
1. I don't need to watch the video clips. I saw it happen live.
2. There a LOT of things that SOUND like explosions. If you've never heard a large crack of a structural failure developing, let me save you the trouble - it sounds like an explosion. And the failure did not need to be immediate or catastrophic... it is entirely possible that sections of the building collapsed before the entire thing.
noto12ious
Golden Member
Then you don't know much history.
You'd be naive in thinking Bush and Cheney were the ones pulling the strings.
History shows our military is certainly capable of planning attacks on its own citizenry.
For example, "The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff"
Operation Northwoods: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
Actual Operation Northwoods documents: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
"can't even catch the leader of our greatest enemy"
Who says they want to catch Bin Laden? Don't forget they moved him to the back burner and prioritized Iraq instead.
"Bush and a lot of the government is incompetent and couldn't tie their own shoelaces without professional assistance"
Exactly, which is why it's naive to think Bush and Cheney were pulling the strings. Even the official story has been contradicted by Norman Mineta, yet his testimony was intentionally omitted from the official report. They are getting the "professional assistance" of the 9/11 Commission to help cover it up.
Thread on Norman Mineta's testimony and 9/11 Commission intentionally omitting it from their records
noto12ious
Golden Member
Who said it was easily seen? Most of the public still thinks it was jet fuel that brought down the towers... and they still think jet fuel melted the steel (jet fuel didn't melt the steel, as verified by our government + other researchers, so how exactly do you explain molten steel being found on the lower levels at ground zero?) We had to pin on someone, didn't we? The terrorists took the fall, but they weren't responsible for the explosions at the base of the towers. It's very simple, bringing down those towers was a psychological attack on the American public which infuriated the nation. I personally bought the official version for 4 years, until I started looking at the facts 🙂 You realize the 911 Commission + government has denied any explosions have taken place, contrary to the witnesses that have already testified to the commission? It's well documented.
Nobody is saying the steel wasn't weakened. However, the fact is the steel didn't melt on those upper floors (as admitted by FEMA and NIST), so why was melted steel found underneath ground zero? The most obvious explanation: Explosives You do realize they illegally shipped off the debris overseas to India and China, right? Many people complained, including engineers who wanted to study the steel, but they were ignored. Again, it's well documented.
Actually, you should watch the clips. Even USA Today, CNN, and NBC reported secondary devices being found.
USA Today
CNN
NBC
Why fool the public at all? You say it was for "It's very simple, bringing down those towers was a psychological attack on the American public which infuriated the nation." But don't you think that hijacking air planes and flying 3 into buildings would be enough to make us angry?
This is the point that completely debunks your theory: If the American people found out that the Government ACTUALLY did this (ignored the hijackers, and bombed the WTC) there would be a civil war. It just doesn't make sense.
Also if burning jet fuel could not create enough heat to melt steel, how could one (or multiple bombs) do it? I am sorry, but I am pretty sure they did not use a mini NUKE or some MOAB to cause the building to collapse.
Have you ever seen a building collapse due to explosives? It would not take 12 seconds, or many minutes for the building to fall down after a bomb or other explosive device was set off. However, if the building started to 'explode' due to catastrophic failure of the superstructure it would make the same noise and 'could' take a while.
Look, do a search of my posts, I am NOT a fan of this Admin and I do believe there are questions about 9/11 that have not been fully explained but to say that 'someone' orchestrated a massive conspiracy to destroy the WTC I find it hard to believe.
Steeplerot
Lifer
Would they though? Or would they take the easy way out and call those who point it out conspiracy theorists instead of having to come to terms with how bad things have gotten.
Don't bother answering that question, I don't think anyone has proof either way, and it would have to be so solid of proof totally watertight open and shut case or people would brush it off.
9/11 is likely to go down as another who killed JFK/grassy knoll deal,
Most everyone knows something was screwy with the official story but there will be so many accusations flying around everywhere and conspiracys that the whole thing will be history before long.
noto12ious
Golden Member
Angry? Sure, but bringing down those towers added the final blow. Don't forget, the WTC bombings in the 90's didn't exactly rile up the nation to want vengeance. It took the towers collapsing for the nation to scream for revenge.
That's why it's called a coverup, so the public would never find out, in theory at least...CNN picked up the story today actually. (911blogger.com)
Do the research, the government has admitted the fires due to jetfuel did not reach melting temperatures of 3000 degrees F...yet they have not pursued an answer to this critical question.
One possibility mentioned is Thermite, which melts steel.
You should really go back and watch the footage in this thread...it sounds like you haven't.
Again, you should really read the firefighter testimonials all over the web about demolition type flashes being seen on the lower levels a few seconds before the "collapse" at the top intiated. Also, watch the footage in this thread again...especially the 911 eyewitness clip.
noto12ious
Golden Member
"I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down."
"No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did yc.u see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. i never met the man before in my lite. He knew who was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you... It was just a little strange"
source: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/ny...050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Gregory_Stephen.txt
*************************************************************************
Captain Karin Deshore, Batallion 46:
"Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, both going up and down and then all around the building.
I went inside and I told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up there and I said I think we have another major explosion...
So here these explosions are getting bigger and louder and bigger and louder and I told everybody if this building totally explodes, still unaware that the other tower had collapsed, I'm going in the water."
source: http://www.sfgate.com/gate/pictures/2005/09/10/ga_karin_deshore.pdf
"No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did yc.u see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. i never met the man before in my lite. He knew who was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you... It was just a little strange"
source: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/ny...050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Gregory_Stephen.txt
*************************************************************************
Captain Karin Deshore, Batallion 46:
"Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, both going up and down and then all around the building.
I went inside and I told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up there and I said I think we have another major explosion...
So here these explosions are getting bigger and louder and bigger and louder and I told everybody if this building totally explodes, still unaware that the other tower had collapsed, I'm going in the water."
source: http://www.sfgate.com/gate/pictures/2005/09/10/ga_karin_deshore.pdf
Nist does not go beyond 'collapse initiation'. From that they presume that 'Total Global DisProportionate Progressive Collapse' will automatically follow, even though this has never happened before or since.. not ever.
Watch as the buildings collapse like a dropped bundle of sticks. Have you seen the size of the 47 core columns in each building? Ridiculous.
Watch as the buildings collapse like a dropped bundle of sticks. Have you seen the size of the 47 core columns in each building? Ridiculous.
I have never heard of *any* intelligent people who seriously believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. Who are they? What are their names?
Again.....why would you go to the trouble of planting bombs in a buidling, AND, flying planes into it? Put your tinfoil hats back on and try again.....
...wait....if this thread is supposed to be funny? Oh I get it now! ROFL! Good one! It's all a big conspiracy! You got me!
Again.....why would you go to the trouble of planting bombs in a buidling, AND, flying planes into it? Put your tinfoil hats back on and try again.....
...wait....if this thread is supposed to be funny? Oh I get it now! ROFL! Good one! It's all a big conspiracy! You got me!
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