8: The Mormon Proposition

[Homerboy]

I assume that you are actually able to do some investigation on your own, without any hand holding. Am I wrong?

So your answers to questions that you instigate is "look it up yourself". Brilliant.

 

[Homerboy]

For me, it actually had the opposite of the intended affect.

I probably would have abstained from voting on prop 8, as I don't feel strongly either way about it.

Thank you or answering my question

 

[BoberFett]

So it is a left thing to care about the rights of a minority group being trampled on because of a ignorant populace. The right, strong believers of the constitution and personal rights, could give a shit less.

The problem as I stated is that people like Craig are enamored with the idea of democracy until it goes against their wishes.

Craig routinely calls libertarians such as myself evil, but I'm not the one with an inconsistent belief system. I believe government should interfere with the lives of citizens as little as possible. I don't care if a man wants to marry a woman, a man, their sister, or a donkey. It makes no difference to me and in my ideal society government wouldn't even have the opportunity to deny someone their lifestyle of choice. But people like Craig want massive democratically run government to oversee every area of life and ensure that people make the right choice, and then they're shocked when it backfires on them.

 

[Drako]

So your answers to questions that you instigate is "look it up yourself". Brilliant.

Pretty much.

You recommended a movie as "required viewing", and you apparently don't know much about the issue. Now that's brilliant .

 

[Homerboy]

Pretty much.

You recommended a movie as "required viewing", and you apparently don't know much about the issue. Now that's brilliant .

In retrospect, I realize I worded my OP horribly. I wont go back and change it though, otherwise the whole thread gets turned around.

That being said, I still think the documentary was accurate in their description of what the LDS did to help promote Prop8 and getting it pushed through. (now if that was the ONLY thing that caused its successful passing is impossible to measure).

I will not concede though that the MILLIONS of dollars and countless man hours that the church (mind you this was actually CHURCHES as it was a "coalition" (that word is so dirty nowadays) of different religions, but with the main thrust through LDS) put behind the measure did not influence the results. Whether the results would have been the same or not without the influence we can never know, but I'm willing to bet the promotion of it definitely helped a few percentage points.

 

[BoomerD]

I'm a heterosexual who doesn't like or support the homosexual lifestyle, but who also doesn't see gay marriage as a threat to "my marriage," and as such, considering that we heterosexuals haven't done such a splendid job historically of "protecting the sanctity of marriage," voted against Prop. 8...hell, why not let the gays fuck their lives up even further?

However, as a devout Mormon hater, had I been in favor of Prop 8, the heavy Mormon influence in the campaign would have turned me against it anyway. "If the Mormons are against it...I'm for it," in most cases.

 

[sactoking]

There is no excuse for such a solid Blue state passing that law. The fact is that people, even in the most liberal states, generally are against gay marriage.

Well, the truth of the matter is that most people aren't super partisan and have a wide range of opinions on controversial topics that can't be encompassed by the label 'Democrat' or 'Republican'.

That's the gist of my prior point, which I'll expound upon here. A traditionally 'liberal' voter base like "Latino" is very diverse. Take a broad-range view of the subject matter: "Latinos" tend to be fairly socially conservative and fiscally liberal. This can be said to couch from their religious beliefs (conservative) and the fact that they come to America seeking economic opportunity, which can't be achieved if 1% holds 90% of the income (liberal). Get down deeper and you'll see that the Ecuadorian won't be the same as the Chilean next door on a given social topic in which they might both be "conservative".

If you look at California though, "Latinos" tend to vote liberal in general elections. Why is that, when social issues matter just as much and their social views are more conservative? Well, California uses its broken proposition system to push lots of social legislation while much of its economic policy is still enacted through elected officials. As a voting bloc, they're not forced to choose because they can vote liberal in the elections for office and conservative on a case-by-case basis in the proposition system.

Did the spending on Prop 8 affect things? Undoubtedly. But did it change the election? I don't think so. I think that California's proposition system and demographics were a 'perfect storm' for a "blue" state to come out with such a "red" outcome.

 

[Homerboy]

I'm a heterosexual who doesn't like or support the homosexual lifestyle, but who also doesn't see gay marriage as a threat to "my marriage," and as such, considering that we heterosexuals haven't done such a splendid job historically of "protecting the sanctity of marriage," voted against Prop. 8...hell, why not let the gays fuck their lives up even further?

However, as a devout Mormon hater, had I been in favor of Prop 8, the heavy Mormon influence in the campaign would have turned me against it anyway. "If the Mormons are against it...I'm for it," in most cases.

LOL awesome post (for the record I have many LDS friends... but I often question their "stuff")

 

[PokerGuy]

So it is a left thing to care about the rights of a minority group being trampled on because of a ignorant populace.

No rights are getting trampled, and the fact that you call everyone part of an "ignorant populace" just because they hold a different opinion is an exact demonstration of the stupidity and hypocrisy of the left.

 

[BoomerD]

Well, the truth of the matter is that most people aren't super partisan and have a wide range of opinions on controversial topics that can't be encompassed by the label 'Democrat' or 'Republican'.

That's the gist of my prior point, which I'll expound upon here. A traditionally 'liberal' voter base like "Latino" is very diverse. Take a broad-range view of the subject matter: "Latinos" tend to be fairly socially conservative and fiscally liberal. This can be said to couch from their religious beliefs (conservative) and the fact that they come to America seeking economic opportunity, which can't be achieved if 1% holds 90% of the income (liberal). Get down deeper and you'll see that the Ecuadorian won't be the same as the Chilean next door on a given social topic in which they might both be "conservative".

If you look at California though, "Latinos" tend to vote liberal in general elections. Why is that, when social issues matter just as much and their social views are more conservative? Well, California uses its broken proposition system to push lots of social legislation while much of its economic policy is still enacted through elected officials. As a voting bloc, they're not forced to choose because they can vote liberal in the elections for office and conservative on a case-by-case basis in the proposition system.

Did the spending on Prop 8 affect things? Undoubtedly. But did it change the election? I don't think so. I think that California's proposition system and demographics were a 'perfect storm' for a "blue" state to come out with such a "red" outcome.

True dat. I'm a life-long Democrat...but I'm NOT very liberal. I rarely support the "let's raise taxes to study the mating habits of the banana slug" types of initiatives, nor MOST school bonds.

Just being a Dem doesn't make me a "librul."

 

[woolfe9999]

It is kind of absurd that people are blaming Mormons from another state when they couldn't even vote. It comes down the fact that California residents are the ones that voted, LDS mobilizing more people to vote for it just means that even more Californians were for it. If the people aren't for it they could have spent a billion dollars and it would have failed. Taking into consideration what Sactoking brought up, I doubt even more that they had as much of an effect as some wish they did.

This is now the second post where someone has implied that money doesn't matter in elections. You are basically saying here that people are "for" or "against" something regardless of persuasion. Nonsense. In the real world, you can convince people of almost anything if you throw enough money at it.

- wolf

 

[xj0hnx]

This is now the second post where someone has implied that money doesn't matter in elections. You are basically saying here that people are "for" or "against" something regardless of persuasion. Nonsense. In the real world, you can convince people of almost anything if you throw enough money at it.

- wolf

And how did Mormons spending money change people from against the proposition to for it? You think they were out paying people to vote for it? If anything they informed, and mobilized people that already supported it to get out and vote.

 

[Moonbeam]

The problem as I stated is that people like Craig are enamored with the idea of democracy until it goes against their wishes.

Craig routinely calls libertarians such as myself evil, but I'm not the one with an inconsistent belief system. I believe government should interfere with the lives of citizens as little as possible. I don't care if a man wants to marry a woman, a man, their sister, or a donkey. It makes no difference to me and in my ideal society government wouldn't even have the opportunity to deny someone their lifestyle of choice. But people like Craig want massive democratically run government to oversee every area of life and ensure that people make the right choice, and then they're shocked when it backfires on them.

The word for your belief system isn't inconsistent. Ludicrous would be the better word.

So you mean to tell me you're going to allow your kids to stick their finger in an electric socket in the name of freedom or allow the cunning to sell snake oil to the brain dead reducing their resources to purchase proper remediation?

I believe it was the libertarian australopithecenes that gave rise to the religion of ones brother's keeper and laws that control, no? I think as a practical matter, folks fuck themselves and others if they are allowed to run around totally free and stupid. But somebody once pointed out that with freedom comes responsibility which, I would imagine, means sticking the freaks in cages. Good cages make good neighbors, no?

 

[Moonbeam]

And how did Mormons spending money change people from against the proposition to for it? You think they were out paying people to vote for it? If anything they informed, and mobilized people that already supported it to get out and vote.

I think they used the money to shout out a bigot alert. "All you bigots get to the poles or the gays are going to fuck you in the ass." They just played on the repressed urges of conservatives by stimulating that hidden nasty desire they all have.

 

[BoberFett]

Get down deeper and you'll see that the Ecuadorian won't be the same as the Chilean next door on a given social topic in which they might both be "conservative".

I've gotten pretty deep into a Chilean, and let me tell you. She was anything BUT conservative.

 

[xj0hnx]

I think they used the money to shout out a bigot alert. "All you bigots get to the poles or the gays are going to fuck you in the ass." They just played on the repressed urges of conservatives bu stimulating that hidden nasty desire they all have.

You are a very demented bigot.

 

[BoberFett]

The word for your belief system isn't inconsistent. Ludicrous would be the better word.

Ludicrous is taking anything you say seriously.

So you mean to tell me you're going to allow your kids to stick their finger in an electric socket in the name of freedom or allow the cunning to sell snake oil to the brain dead reducing their resources to purchase proper remediation?

Yes.

I believe it was the libertarian australopithecenes that gave rise to the religion of ones brother's keeper and laws that control, no? I think as a practical matter, folks fuck themselves and others if they are allowed to run around totally free and stupid. But somebody once pointed out that with freedom comes responsibility which, I would imagine, means sticking the freaks in cages. Good cages make good neighbors, no?

The majority of people in CA have chosen to be their brother's keeper and control them, to prevent them from being wrong and marrying another brother. As I said, you believe in power over others until it goes against your wishes. You're as inconsistent as Craig, and loonier than a barrel of water fowl.

 

[Elfear]

^^ exactly.. two people jump in and call it hogwash etc.. just offer some proof please..

Nobody wants to think LDS spent over 20 MILLION dollars to stop humans from creating a union of love while there are homeless and starving and battered people/children/wives living in their own state IF THEY REALLY DIDN'T DO THAT

^^ know wut im sayn?

I believe with that much cash you can really stir shit up and they knew that.

Are you going to tell us they spent that cash just for a tax write-off?

What is their fear..

You really need to quit posting trash unless you have some good evidence to back it up. It has already been pointed out to you in other threads but you ignore what doesn't go along with your paradigm of the world (i.e. Mormons can do no right and walk around giving blanket-parties to gay people using the Book of Mormon no less).

The official paperwork (required by law) sent to the state of California by the LDS church listing their contributions to the main organization behind Prop 8 (protectmarriage.com) stated the following:

Non-monetary contributions = $189,903.58

Monetary contributions = $0.00

Link

$190k =/= $20M

 

[Mr. Lennon]

No rights are getting trampled, and the fact that you call everyone part of an "ignorant populace" just because they hold a different opinion is an exact demonstration of the stupidity and hypocrisy of the left.

 

[PokerGuy]

$190k =/= $20M

Libtards are impervious to such mere trivialities as "facts".

 

[Homerboy]

You really need to quit posting trash unless you have some good evidence to back it up. It has already been pointed out to you in other threads but you ignore what doesn't go along with your paradigm of the world (i.e. Mormons can do no right and walk around giving blanket-parties to gay people using the Book of Mormon no less).

The official paperwork (required by law) sent to the state of California by the LDS church listing their contributions to the main organization behind Prop 8 (protectmarriage.com) stated the following:

Non-monetary contributions = $189,903.58

Monetary contributions = $0.00

Link

$190k =/= $20M

These monitary #s were discussed in the documentary or "documentary". That is what the Church DIRECTLY gave (mind you it was their 2nd (or 3rd?) submission of the numbers). The church worked through, in essence, a "front" where the the money was sent directly from its members Up to $500K a day IIRC.

 

[Moonbeam]

Ludicrous is taking anything you say seriously.



Yes.



The majority of people in CA have chosen to be their brother's keeper and control them, to prevent them from being wrong and marrying another brother. As I said, you believe in power over others until it goes against your wishes. You're as inconsistent as Craig, and loonier than a barrel of water fowl.

Ah, but it got reversed by a court and is now up for appeal. I will live by whatever decision is made because I have to. I keep so am kept by the law just as I don't take drugs.

 

[Moonbeam]

You are a very demented bigot.

It's not bigotry to identify bigots for who and what they are. But we all know that when you identify a bigot he gets upset. Bigots, masters of pointing their hoary bony religious fingers at others don't like any fingers pointing at them. They know exactly what finger pointing means. You have mastered pointing without ever having anything to say.

 

[BoberFett]

I don't take drugs.

Quoted for the lulz.

 

[xj0hnx]

It's not bigotry to identify bigots for who and what they are. But we all know that when you identify a bigot he gets upset. Bigots, masters of pointing their hoary bony religious fingers at others don't like any fingers pointing at them. They know exactly what finger pointing means. You have mastered pointing without ever having anything to say.

That's because there's nothing to say to your babbling, other than to continue to point out your bigotry, and hatefulness for anyone that doesn't think in a manner that you approve of.