8: The Mormon Proposition

[Moonbeam]

Ahhhh, so you mean that all those money spent on campaigns are wasted, no one will ever change their mind on any issue?

Why don't you just shut the fuck up before you make an even bigger fool out of yourself.

People are impressionable, on ALL things, otherwise political advertising would be wasted money and so would "buying an experience with coca cola by drinking coca cola" be.

In essence, most people are fucking stupid.

As I tried to tell the dunce again and again, it is more a matter of flaming up the bigots to get them to the polls then changing the minds of average people. The money isn't spent to create new bigots but to get the millions of religious nut cases bigots that already exist because of religious indoctrination to the polls because their religion is under attack by gays.

 

[Amused]

As I tried to tell the dunce again and again, it is more a matter of flaming up the bigots to get them to the polls then changing the minds of average people. The money isn't spent to create new bigots but to get the millions of religious nut cases bigots that already exist because of religious indoctrination to the polls because their religion is under attack by gays.

So "getting out the vote" is evil? Or is it only evil when someone you disagree with does it?

I wholly disagree with prop 8 (it's unconstitutional) and the entire prop amendment in CA's constitution for that matter. But to say "getting out the vote" is bad just because the other guy beat you at it is bullshit.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

As I tried to tell the dunce again and again, it is more a matter of flaming up the bigots to get them to the polls then changing the minds of average people. The money isn't spent to create new bigots but to get the millions of religious nut cases bigots that already exist because of religious indoctrination to the polls because their religion is under attack by gays.

Yeah, that was my point by the other response.

However, if a stupid man will change his mind it will be because of a commercial and there are plenty of stupid men in this world.

 

[woolfe9999]

So "getting out the vote" is evil? Or is it only evil when someone you disagree with does it?

I wholly disagree with prop 8 (it's unconstitutional) and the entire prop amendment in CA's constitution for that matter. But to say "getting out the vote" is bad just because the other guy beat you at it is bullshit.

Getting people out to vote isn't evil. Lying is. Saying that legal gay marriage will cause our children to learn buttsex in school was and is a defamatory lie.

- wolf

 

[Amused]

Getting people out to vote isn't evil. Lying is. Saying that legal gay marriage will cause our children to learn buttsex in school was and is a defamatory lie.

- wolf

No, it's an opinion. A wrong opinion, but one they believe whole heartedly.

What now? Wanna ban bad opinions?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So "getting out the vote" is evil? Or is it only evil when someone you disagree with does it?

I wholly disagree with prop 8 (it's unconstitutional) and the entire prop amendment in CA's constitution for that matter. But to say "getting out the vote" is bad just because the other guy beat you at it is bullshit.

Of course it isn't, whipping up a stream of hate to make people vote based on one issue might be though.

I've seen that happen a lot of times, one question democracy, discrimination against *x* is the most important issue at hand, they are the enemy.

So what your questions should be is "do you believe that leaders convincing voters that discriminating against others is right"....

I know you like to simplify things to understand them, but this isn't to complicated for you to understand, is it? I could type it slower, just for you?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

No, it's an opinion. A wrong opinion, but one they believe whole heartedly.

What now? Wanna ban bad opinions?

Well, do you want to ban the constitution and base all things on majority vote?

That is kind of the same daft question as the one you asked, it's just a strawman, just like your question.

However, there is a bit of relevance to my question since some people actually believe that you should be able to discriminate based on majority vote and since discrimination goes against the constitution (at least in the UK, i'm not sure what your "goddamn piece of paper" says but i'm sure it includes such things too).

 

[Amused]

Well, do you want to ban the constitution and base all things on majority vote?

That is kind of the same daft question as the one you asked, it's just a strawman, just like your question.

However, there is a bit of relevance to my question since some people actually believe that you should be able to discriminate based on majority vote and since discrimination goes against the constitution (at least in the UK, i'm not sure what your "goddamn piece of paper" says but i'm sure it includes such things too).

Still condesending I see.

At any rate, I did say I oppose the entire idea of proposition voting in CA's constitution. Majority rule is tyranny of the majorty. This country has known that since it's inception, but failed a few times it keeping it from happening. CA's prop amendment is proof of that.

Secondly, the majority voting away the rights of a minority is unconstitutional. I believe I made that clear as well.

But the demonizing of a group for "getting out the vote" is JUST as bad. They have a right to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

This is where the leftists become hypocrites. Free speech ends when they disagree with the speech. They are want legal intolerance of intolerance, an oxymoron.

 

[bamacre]

You don't think that countless commercials, speaches, flyers, demonstrations etc affect people and their decisions?

They certainly do. And LDS didn't spend that much money before doing some research to see how they could "affect people and their decisions" most efficiently.

I programmed a questionnaire today that asked the exact same question 5 times. There were only 40 total questions.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Getting people out to vote isn't evil. Lying is. Saying that legal gay marriage will cause our children to learn buttsex in school was and is a defamatory lie.

- wolf

Do you hold your elected politicians to the same standard? Or do the people you vote for *never lie*?

 

[woolfe9999]

Do you hold your elected politicians to the same standard? Or do the people you vote for *never lie*?

Fail. One lie does not justify another.

- wolf

 

[FuzzyBee]

Fail. One lie does not justify another.

- wolf

Why don't you answer the question?

 

[woolfe9999]

No, it's an opinion. A wrong opinion, but one they believe whole heartedly.

What now? Wanna ban bad opinions?

More accurately, you might say it was a prediction. But a prediction so nonsensical that the people who espoused very likely did not believe it, making it a lie.

Who said anything about a "ban." You want to join the class of idiotic posters who think that every time someone is critical of expression that they are in favor of banning it? That sort of straw man is getting really old around P&N. No, the mormons can lie all they want, and I can call them out for lying and state that it disgusts me. It's free speech either way.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

Why don't you answer the question?

Because the question is abstract and not relevant to the discussion, unless you are implying that one lie justifies another. Tell me what the intent of the question is and I'll answer it directly. Are you saying that if I ever voted for someone who lied I must then accept everyone's lies all the time?

- wolf

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Still condesending I see.

At any rate, I did say I oppose the entire idea of proposition voting in CA's constitution. Majority rule is tyranny of the majorty. This country has known that since it's inception, but failed a few times it keeping it from happening. CA's prop amendment is proof of that.

Secondly, the majority voting away the rights of a minority is unconstitutional. I believe I made that clear as well.

But the demonizing of a group for "getting out the vote" is JUST as bad. They have a right to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

This is where the leftists become hypocrites. Free speech ends when they disagree with the speech. They are want legal intolerance of intolerance, an oxymoron.

To you, how could i not be condesending, you are fucking stupid.

I really do think that lying to people to get them to vote is a bad thing, if they are not clear about what they are voting for, none of their votes count.

A democracy REQUIRES an informed voter base or it will always be a game about who can come up with the most fear based lies against the other party(s), i'm sure even a daft fuck like you can understand that?

And no, knowingly lying to someone isn't providing an opinion you daft fuck, it's lying, an opinion could be that black is not your color but stating that if you vote for the libertians you will be forced to dress in black isn't just as saying that they will turn your children gay isn't an opinion but a lie.

Even an opinion has to be fact based somehow or it will just be a stated lie.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Because the question is abstract and not relevant to the discussion, unless you are implying that one lie justifies another. Tell me what the intent of the question is and I'll answer it directly. Are you saying that if I ever voted for someone who lied I must then accept everyone's lies all the time?

- wolf

You wouldn't even have to accept the lies from the one you voted on, would you?

Which makes the question completely moot.

 

[Amused]

To you, how could i not be condesending, you are fucking stupid.

I really do think that lying to people to get them to vote is a bad thing, if they are not clear about what they are voting for, none of their votes count.

A democracy REQUIRES an informed voter base or it will always be a game about who can come up with the most fear based lies against the other party(s), i'm sure even a daft fuck like you can understand that?

And no, knowingly lying to someone isn't providing an opinion you daft fuck, it's lying, an opinion could be that black is not your color but stating that if you vote for the libertians you will be forced to dress in black isn't just as saying that they will turn your children gay isn't an opinion but a lie.

Even an opinion has to be fact based somehow or it will just be a stated lie.

The Mormons honestly believe the predictions of doom they spout. It's an opinion, a belief, and therefore not a "lie."

At any rate, are we going to start this bullshit with you insulting me over and over again until I have you banned yet again?

The Mormon's did nothing LEGALLY wrong. Period. The attempt to paint them as somehow legally culpable for the vote is an affront to the right of free speech, period.

Please try to remain civil, John.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Because the question is abstract and not relevant to the discussion, unless you are implying that one lie justifies another. Tell me what the intent of the question is and I'll answer it directly. Are you saying that if I ever voted for someone who lied I must then accept everyone's lies all the time?

- wolf

You know well what the intent of the question is. Since you're acting daft, though:

You act pious with your "lying to get votes is evil" - that is the reason you are against the position taken by this group against Proposition 8. Do you take that statement in hand every time you vote, or just when people "lie" to get out votes that are opposed to your opinion?

 

[Moonbeam]

So "getting out the vote" is evil? Or is it only evil when someone you disagree with does it?

I wholly disagree with prop 8 (it's unconstitutional) and the entire prop amendment in CA's constitution for that matter. But to say "getting out the vote" is bad just because the other guy beat you at it is bullshit.

I replied to this post:

"Originally Posted by xj0hnx
And how did Mormons spending money change people from against the proposition to for it? You think they were out paying people to vote for it? If anything they informed, and mobilized people that already supported it to get out and vote."

With this post:

"I think they used the money to shout out a bigot alert. "All you bigots get to the poles or the gays are going to fuck you in the ass." They just played on the repressed urges of conservatives by stimulating that hidden nasty desire they all have."

I didn't say a God Damned thing about getting out the vote being evil. I said the voters they intended to get out are bigots. Don't pin me to an issue I didn't make, please. Hehe

 

[woolfe9999]

You know well what the intent of the question is. Since you're acting daft, though:

You act pious with your "lying to get votes is evil" - that is the reason you are against the position taken by this group against Proposition 8. Do you take that statement in hand every time you vote, or just when people "lie" to get out votes that are opposed to your opinion?

Yes, I take the statement in hand when I vote. I don't think it's OK to lie in support of any position, including those I support. What I DO think is that your "question" - which was really rhetorical - is a deflection of the issue at hand. You can't defend the lying, so instead, you hypothesize that I would somehow excuse a different sort of lie and then conjecture that I am some sort of hypocrit. Well guess what, that kind of lame argument can theoretically be used to justify any kind of dishonesty.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

The Mormons honestly believe the predictions of doom they spout. It's an opinion, a belief, and therefore not a "lie."

At any rate, are we going to start this bullshit with you insulting me over and over again until I have you banned yet again?

The Mormon's did nothing LEGALLY wrong. Period. The attempt to paint them as somehow legally culpable for the vote is an affront to the right of free speech, period.

Please try to remain civil, John.

In terms of whether "the Mormons" believe this prediction, I can well believe that many of the rank and file do. I'm sure that many evangelical Christians do as well, because they lack critical thinking skills and have been duped by hucksters like the people who formulated these ads.

- wolf

 

[Moonbeam]

The Mormons honestly believe the predictions of doom they spout. It's an opinion, a belief, and therefore not a "lie."

At any rate, are we going to start this bullshit with you insulting me over and over again until I have you banned yet again?

The Mormon's did nothing LEGALLY wrong. Period. The attempt to paint them as somehow legally culpable for the vote is an affront to the right of free speech, period.

Please try to remain civil, John.

It's nothing but psychosis. Of course it's a lie. Nobody but a fucking Moron believes it. It is a culturally transmitted piece of brainwashing you can catch in no other way than being brainwashed by the Moon Farce.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Yes, I take the statement in hand when I vote. I don't think it's OK to lie in support of any position, including those I support. What I DO think is that your "question" - which was really rhetorical - is a deflection of the issue at hand. You can't defend the lying, so instead, you hypothesize that I would somehow excuse a different sort of lie and then conjecture that I am some sort of hypocrit. Well guess what, that kind of lame argument can theoretically be used to justify any kind of dishonesty.

- wolf

So - you choose to vote for evil? Or are you just concerned about evil *you don't like*?

Remember - your prime opposition to the position that this group took is that (in your opinion) they are lying; ergo, they are evil. Now, using your own logic, do you vote for politicians that lie?

It's not a "lame argument" - your attempted backpedaling and justification, however, *is* lame, especially when you consider "evil lying" is the reason you stated you're opposed to this organized opposition to Proposition 8. Is this true, or are there other reasons why you're against this opposing group?

 

[Moonbeam]

So - you choose to vote for evil? Or are you just concerned about evil *you don't like*?

Remember - your prime opposition to the position that this group took is that (in your opinion) they are lying; ergo, they are evil. Now, using your own logic, do you vote for politicians that lie?

It's not a "lame argument" - your attempted backpedaling and justification, however, *is* lame, especially when you consider "evil lying" is the reason you stated you're opposed to this organized opposition to Proposition 8. Is this true, or are there other reasons why you're against this opposing group?

I shoot for the one that lies the least. Exciting bigots to vote is vigilantism and should be countered by Marshal law.

 

[woolfe9999]

So - you choose to vote for evil? Or are you just concerned about evil *you don't like*?

Remember - your prime opposition to the position that this group took is that (in your opinion) they are lying; ergo, they are evil. Now, using your own logic, do you vote for politicians that lie?

It's not a "lame argument" - your attempted backpedaling and justification, however, *is* lame, especially when you consider "evil lying" is the reason you stated you're opposed to this organized opposition to Proposition 8. Is this true, or are there other reasons why you're against this opposing group?

Are there other reasons I am against this opposing group? Not in particular, no. I have other issues with the LDS church in terms of behaving unethically in the past, but this is true of many if not most human institutions.

I've said repeatedly that I don't support lying to get votes, no matter who does it. I don't see any backpeddling, inconsistency or hypocrisy here. Sorry, but assuming that I tolerate lies that support a cause I believe in IS a lame argument. According to that standard, I can make the exact same argument any time ANYONE calls out a person or group for lying about ANYTHING. You're basically saying, "so what if they lied. Your side lies too. Neener neener neener."

I sense a theme in today's P&N. In one thread, we have people arguing that war crimes, including genocide, are just fine because after all, in war, "everyone does it" anyway, and now we have someone arguing, so what they lied, everyone else does it, including people you support.

- wolf