• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

755

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: mpitts
I'm about 100% sure that he did steroids.

I'm about 100% sure that he was not the only one on steroids.

Steroids was not cheating in baseball for years. It was illegal in the US but there were no rules against in Major League Baseball.

If you want to put an asterisk next to Barry Bonds and his record, you need to put on next to a litany of other players from the same era including Roger Clemens and his 350+ wins, Sammy Sosa and his 600+ home runs, Jason Giambi and his 2000 MVP, etc etc etc..

Just because the guy is a jerk doesn't mean that what he accomplished is not impressive.

I'm not a Barry Bonds apologist, btw.
I got plenty of asterisks to go around... * * * * *

Grab a few... there'll be a lot of them to hand out before it's all over, and not just for B*rry B*nds.
 

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: wyvrn
What kind of comparison is that? All the athletes in the pros are adults and therefore you compare apples to apples. Comparing them to an 8 year old makes no sense and does not support your argument. Bat speed is not just a measure of strength, it is also a measure of the type of reaction time between brain and muscle. While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
You might not believe it, but the doctors in this article do:

Dr. William Howard, a surgeon specializing in sports medicine at Union Memorial Hospital, said steroids do not turn pedestrian athletes into pros but unquestionably turn pros into stars and superstars.

"Steroids do not help you hit the curveball," he said. "What they do is help build muscle, and what that does is allow you to swing the bat faster. All these guys in the majors can hit the ball. That's how they got there. What they're looking for is that little boost to make the ball go 10 or 15 feet farther."

Steroids aren't magical, agreed Dr. Charles E. Yesalis, a Penn State epidemiologist who studies sports doping, but they add the extra reaction time that can make a good player great.

"When you have something that increases performance in a highly competitive field by half of 1 percent, that's huge," Yesalis said.

The assessments by Howard and Yesalis jibe with the observations of former players who admitted using steroids.
...as does the bodybuilding trainer on this site:

But in one sport after another, from baseball to kayaking, athletes are discovering that a stronger athlete is a better athlete. If you want to swing a bat faster you need more horsepower. If you want to paddle faster you need more horsepower. That power comes from your muscles.
It's basic physics...

Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

I don't think you'd need a link for proof of that formula... but I've got one if you need one.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,923
20,848
136
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
What kind of comparison is that? All the athletes in the pros are adults and therefore you compare apples to apples. Comparing them to an 8 year old makes no sense and does not support your argument. Bat speed is not just a measure of strength, it is also a measure of the type of reaction time between brain and muscle. While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
You might not believe it, but the doctors in this article do:

Dr. William Howard, a surgeon specializing in sports medicine at Union Memorial Hospital, said steroids do not turn pedestrian athletes into pros but unquestionably turn pros into stars and superstars.

"Steroids do not help you hit the curveball," he said. "What they do is help build muscle, and what that does is allow you to swing the bat faster. All these guys in the majors can hit the ball. That's how they got there. What they're looking for is that little boost to make the ball go 10 or 15 feet farther."

Steroids aren't magical, agreed Dr. Charles E. Yesalis, a Penn State epidemiologist who studies sports doping, but they add the extra reaction time that can make a good player great.

"When you have something that increases performance in a highly competitive field by half of 1 percent, that's huge," Yesalis said.

The assessments by Howard and Yesalis jibe with the observations of former players who admitted using steroids.
...as does the bodybuilding trainer on this site:

But in one sport after another, from baseball to kayaking, athletes are discovering that a stronger athlete is a better athlete. If you want to swing a bat faster you need more horsepower. If you want to paddle faster you need more horsepower. That power comes from your muscles.
It's basic physics...

Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

I don't think you'd need a link for proof of that formula... but I've got one if you need one.

barry's swing was just as fast, if not faster, before he could have possibly been roidin. athletes take them for recovery.

Now, maybe if MLB wood legalize the chronic.....
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,062
90
91
Originally posted by: wyvrn


Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
Anyone who has played baseball at a competitive level can tell you strength has a lot to do with it. I played baseball for several years and was always a home-run hitter (in high school and beyond) and I am a big guy. My swing makes a loud whoosh and people usually turn around and look when they hear it. This is not uncommon for any guy my size who has played ball for a long time. Form has a lot to do with it, but raw strength is the rest.
 

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: zinfamous
barry's swing was just as fast, if not faster, before he could have possibly been roidin. athletes take them for recovery.

Now, maybe if MLB wood legalize the chronic.....
yyyyyeah.... he was also hitting home runs farther and more often back before he was roiding, right?

Perhaps you should stay off the chronic if you're gonna post. :D heh!

 

mrizvi66

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
409
0
0
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
How is it impressive if he used steroids? Especially when it's a record based directly on hitting power?
How many of the pitchers that he faced were up to the same thing that he was?

There's no way to know.
That means nothing. As a direct result of his cheating he holds this record.
The problem I have with this is you cannot prove what steroids did for his home run totals (making the assumption that he did use them).

First, you still have to hit a baseball, and no amount of steroids is going to help you do that. Barry had talent that is undeniable, and is one of the few human beings on earth that could hit both a 95mph fastball and a major league curve in the stands. The only thing steroids could have done is make him more powerful and hit balls longer distances. He was already a power hitter though, so how do you prove how many of his home runs needed the benefit of whatever steroids gave him? And ask other people have mentioned, he was probably facing a lot of pitchers who were also juiced. Just look at how many people can throw in the high 90s versus how many there were 15 years ago, and you have to think steroids is all over baseball and not just the hitters.
Wrong. Steroids make you stronger. Being stronger makes your swing faster. Having a faster swing allows you wait a longer time to judge a pitch. If you can have the patience to wait and discern fastball/curve/slider/changeup and then the muscle to act on your judgment you will be a very rich man.
Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that your average 18 year old swings a bat faster than your average 8 year old. Why? Maybe because the the 18 year old is stronger?

Is anyone denying that a trained athlete is better then an untrained athlete? What do steroids do? They make your muscle recovery time shorter. You can train more and yet muscles can recover. Take your average Joe and have him swing a bat for the first time in his life. He will swing it at a slower rate than that same Joe who spends his life playing baseball and learning to swing a faster bat. Give that Joe steroids and he can train more.
your comparing apples to oranges...18 vs 25 year old would be a better comparison...
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: DougK62
Originally posted by: zinfamous
one thing I could never understand...why do people think that roids increases one's ability to hit homeruns? they don't, and even the casual sports fan/athlete/nutritionist knows this. I find it hypocritical to the point of disgust that MLB, in order to INCREASE homerun production, and thus scoring and fan interest, advocated shorter ballparks over the last decade or so. This, and this alone, is what lead to an increase in homerun production. Of course, when steroids quickly became a media-frenzy, MLB jumps on the bandwagon and wags its fingers at homeruns=steroids.

That being said, I don't advocate Barry's *likely "cheating" for several years, but no one can deny--steroids or not--that he isn't the greatest ball player of his generation.
Like someone else said, steroids allow you to swing the bat faster, which lets you wait on a pitch longer. This absolutely gives you an advantage to hitting the ball "just right", and will lead to more homeruns. Any baseball PLAYER will tell you this. Sure, he hit them before, which is why he turned into a homerun monster when he started taking roids. Just look at McGwire, Bonds, Palmero, etc. - they got on the juice and started popping out homeruns like crazy for just this reason.
Said person also offered zero evidence to support his claim. And most people in medicine will tell you steroids does not translate into bat speed or hand eye coordination.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
What kind of comparison is that? All the athletes in the pros are adults and therefore you compare apples to apples. Comparing them to an 8 year old makes no sense and does not support your argument. Bat speed is not just a measure of strength, it is also a measure of the type of reaction time between brain and muscle. While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
Would those here be more accepting if I compared the JV team to the varsity team and said 16 year olds cannot generally swing a bat as fast their 18 year old brethren because they haven't yet developed the strength to do so??????

Bat speed is strength and agility. Your reaction time that's hard wired into your brain wouldn't have to increase, but you will be given more time to react. Why? because you can wait longer knowing that you now have injected the ability to better train yourself to be faster.

Why would I need a scientist to tell me a 300 hp car is faster than a 299 hp car?
As opposed to others who are attempting to prove with science (some anecdotal), you are making huge stretches. Have you timed Bonds' swing early and late in career? Of course not! So again, prove to me that his swing is faster now to make your analogy work, or go back to trying to find science to prove your claim that steroids makes a person swing faster or have better eye hand coordination.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
What kind of comparison is that? All the athletes in the pros are adults and therefore you compare apples to apples. Comparing them to an 8 year old makes no sense and does not support your argument. Bat speed is not just a measure of strength, it is also a measure of the type of reaction time between brain and muscle. While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
You might not believe it, but the doctors in this article do:

Dr. William Howard, a surgeon specializing in sports medicine at Union Memorial Hospital, said steroids do not turn pedestrian athletes into pros but unquestionably turn pros into stars and superstars.

"Steroids do not help you hit the curveball," he said. "What they do is help build muscle, and what that does is allow you to swing the bat faster. All these guys in the majors can hit the ball. That's how they got there. What they're looking for is that little boost to make the ball go 10 or 15 feet farther."

Steroids aren't magical, agreed Dr. Charles E. Yesalis, a Penn State epidemiologist who studies sports doping, but they add the extra reaction time that can make a good player great.

"When you have something that increases performance in a highly competitive field by half of 1 percent, that's huge," Yesalis said.

The assessments by Howard and Yesalis jibe with the observations of former players who admitted using steroids.
...as does the bodybuilding trainer on this site:

But in one sport after another, from baseball to kayaking, athletes are discovering that a stronger athlete is a better athlete. If you want to swing a bat faster you need more horsepower. If you want to paddle faster you need more horsepower. That power comes from your muscles.
It's basic physics...

Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

I don't think you'd need a link for proof of that formula... but I've got one if you need one.
Meh. A quote from the article proving that it is all anectodal:

Despite such empirical examples, many observers are frustrated by the absence of definitive studies on performance enhancers in baseball. Such studies would be hard to perform, because steroids are illegal and Major League Baseball is trying to eradicate, not research, them.

Researchers have been frustrated even in attempts to measure bat speeds to see if they have increased over time.
Page 2 goes on to describe how nobody can prove anything, but they just think it does. Well that does it for me!!!! LOL.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: SludgeFactory
I thought all the Bonds' apologists had moved on to the "everybody else is doing it" defense. You can at least argue that one a little bit.

At the most fundamental level, basic biomechanics dictates that torque production and angular velocity at a joint is a function of force input and lever arm. The ways to increase force input are to make the muscle bigger and/or learn how to recruit more of its fibers.

Obviously there are a lot of things that go into a baseball swing and generating power with it, and muscle size isn't #1 on the list. But it is a factor, and it's even more important when you reach a level where everybody has a high degree of skill and are looking for any edge they can get.

And forget muscle bulk, steroids are a great tool for recuperation over a 162-game season and for career longevity. I've said this before, Bonds is/was getting the same benefits from this as any middle-aged guy who pays thousands of bucks for hormone replacement therapy.





Text

Baseball batting. An electromyographic study.

Shaffer B, Jobe FW, Pink M, Perry J.

Department of Orthopaedics, Georgetown Medical Center, Washington, D.C.

The muscle firing pattern in 12 muscles throughout the lower extremity, trunk, and upper extremity during the batting swing is described in this study. The two hamstring muscles studied and the gluteal muscle had a similar pattern of high muscle activity during pre-swing and early swing, and then rapidly diminished. The vastus medialis demonstrated peak activity between 95 and 110% maximum muscle test (MMT) throughout the swing phases and follow-through. The erector spinae demonstrated activity from 85 to 185% MMT during the swing phases. The abdominal obliques showed greater than 100% MMT during the swing phases and follow-through. The supraspinatus and serratus anterior showed relatively low muscle activity (less than 40% MMT). These results show that batting is a sequence of coordinated muscle activity, beginning with the hip, followed by the trunk, and terminating with the arms. Power in the swing is initiated in the hip, and therefore exercises that emphasize such strength development are indicated. The maintained, high muscle activity in the trunk muscles indicates a need for back and abdominal stabilization and rotation exercises. The relatively low level of activity in the four scapulohumeral muscles tested indicated that emphasis should be placed on the trunk and hip muscles for a batter's strengthening program.
Ok. So why couldn't normal exercises, as discussed in this excerpt, be the cause of his increased power? Hey when people exercise, they get stronger! Wow, that was some remarkable evidence you came up with. Now prove it was the result of steroid use. But wait, you can't! First, he hasn't been convicted of it. Second, you cannot prove steriods improved muscle in those particular areas of his body which the excerpt claims increase power. Incomplete and unprovable argument.
 

sciencewhiz

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
5,884
8
81
If steroids didn't help, no one would take them. The fact that people take steroids is proof that they do help.
 

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Page 2 goes on to describe how nobody can prove anything, but they just think it does. Well that does it for me!!!! LOL.
You said you wanted scientific proof, and I gave it to you, which you didn't address: Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

If basic physics can't change your mind, nothing will, I guess.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Originally posted by: wyvrn


Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
Anyone who has played baseball at a competitive level can tell you strength has a lot to do with it. I played baseball for several years and was always a home-run hitter (in high school and beyond) and I am a big guy. My swing makes a loud whoosh and people usually turn around and look when they hear it. This is not uncommon for any guy my size who has played ball for a long time. Form has a lot to do with it, but raw strength is the rest.
So now prove he used steriods, and that they increased his ability to hit more home runs. Oh wait, your argument had nothing to do with Bonds. It was just a general statement that doesn't prove anything in this case. By the way, many small/lanky players hit for power. Size does not always equal power.
 

SludgeFactory

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2001
2,969
2
81
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Ok. So why couldn't normal exercises, as discussed in this excerpt, be the cause of his increased power? Hey when people exercise, they get stronger! Wow, that was some remarkable evidence you came up with. Now prove it was the result of steroid use. But wait, you can't! First, he hasn't been convicted of it. Second, you cannot prove steriods improved muscle in those particular areas of his body which the excerpt claims increase power. Incomplete and unprovable argument.
I'm glad we cleared up that little stumbling block, that strength and muscle size actually matters.

If you want to ignore all the evidence that the feds dug up on him, the paper trail at BALCO, all the grand jury testimony, go ahead. It is what it is, I'm not going to regurgitate it and try to persuade anybody. Same with OJ. :laugh:
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
For the record, I think Bonds might have used steroids and that if so, it probably increased his home run count. But I am playing devils' advocate because nobody has any measurable science or other tangible proof. It is all one argument that nobody can win or prove, given our current information. But on the other hand, Bonds was going to hit a ton of home runs anyway because he is a very talented player. He could have put on muscle with regular training and still hit a whole bunch of them. So how do you calculate where his legit home runs stop, and the 'roid ones begin? You cannot and the evidence for such an argument simply does not exist.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: SludgeFactory
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Ok. So why couldn't normal exercises, as discussed in this excerpt, be the cause of his increased power? Hey when people exercise, they get stronger! Wow, that was some remarkable evidence you came up with. Now prove it was the result of steroid use. But wait, you can't! First, he hasn't been convicted of it. Second, you cannot prove steriods improved muscle in those particular areas of his body which the excerpt claims increase power. Incomplete and unprovable argument.
I'm glad we cleared up that little stumbling block, that strength and muscle size actually matters.

If you want to ignore all the evidence that the feds dug up on him, the paper trail at BALCO, all the grand jury testimony, go ahead. It is what it is, I'm not going to regurgitate it and try to persuade anybody. Same with OJ. :laugh:
I am not ignoring anything, just shooting holes in arguments that people think prove anything. If we can prove anything, Bonds would have been kicked out of baseball.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Page 2 goes on to describe how nobody can prove anything, but they just think it does. Well that does it for me!!!! LOL.
You said you wanted scientific proof, and I gave it to you, which you didn't address: Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

If basic physics can't change your mind, nothing will, I guess.
Nice try. Now explain to me why all the researchers in the world looking at this cannot solve the debate by using your simple little equation? Perhaps because the problem is not nearly as simple as you need it to be to justify your stance.
 

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Page 2 goes on to describe how nobody can prove anything, but they just think it does. Well that does it for me!!!! LOL.
You said you wanted scientific proof, and I gave it to you, which you didn't address: Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

If basic physics can't change your mind, nothing will, I guess.
Nice try. Now explain to me why all the researchers in the world looking at this cannot solve the debate by using your simple little equation? Perhaps because the problem is not nearly as simple as you need it to be to justify your stance.
I'm not trying to solve any debate with my "simple little equation". I'm trying to answer your challenge that there's "no scientific evidence to support the claim" that steroids cannot make someone swing a bat faster, per your quote:

Originally posted by: wyvrn
While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
If you don't believe B*nds took steroids, that's fine. But there's certainly scientific evidence that steroids can help someone to swing a bat faster. Whether or not you think B*nds did or did not take steroids is irrelevant to what I posted.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Page 2 goes on to describe how nobody can prove anything, but they just think it does. Well that does it for me!!!! LOL.
You said you wanted scientific proof, and I gave it to you, which you didn't address: Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

If basic physics can't change your mind, nothing will, I guess.
Nice try. Now explain to me why all the researchers in the world looking at this cannot solve the debate by using your simple little equation? Perhaps because the problem is not nearly as simple as you need it to be to justify your stance.
I'm not trying to solve any debate with my "simple little equation". I'm trying to answer your challenge that there's "no scientific evidence to support the claim" that steroids cannot make someone swing a bat faster, per your quote:

Originally posted by: wyvrn
While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
If you don't believe B*nds took steroids, that's fine. But there's certainly scientific evidence that steroids can help someone to swing a bat faster. Whether or not you think B*nds did or did not take steroids is irrelevant to what I posted.
TreyRandom, your formula solves nothing. It is more complex than that. Read the research.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Page 2 goes on to describe how nobody can prove anything, but they just think it does. Well that does it for me!!!! LOL.
You said you wanted scientific proof, and I gave it to you, which you didn't address: Force = mass x acceleration. A larger force on the same sized mass will cause a greater acceleration. And steroids gives you that larger force to cause the bat to swing faster.

If basic physics can't change your mind, nothing will, I guess.
Nice try. Now explain to me why all the researchers in the world looking at this cannot solve the debate by using your simple little equation? Perhaps because the problem is not nearly as simple as you need it to be to justify your stance.
Of course steroids can increase one's bat speed. Why do you think Ben Johnson and other sprinters have used steroids. Steroids can increase one's strength and speed. Increasing one's bat speed can allow a hitter to wait longer before swinging at a ball giving them a better look at a pitch.

And when the ball is hitting with greater force due to the increase in strength and bat speed one is not only more likely to hit more home runs but also hit balls pass infielders and outfielders.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY