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91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: LikeLinus
Originally posted by: Squisher
It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that your average 18 year old swings a bat faster than your average 8 year old. Why? Maybe because the the 18 year old is stronger?
But it does apparently take an idiot to think an fully developed 18 year old is a good comparison to a pre-pubescent 8 year old boy as far as strength.
His comparison applied to the concept you guys are arguing about. Your rebuttal did not. He said that strength plays a role and then used a stronger person as an example. You tried to shoot that comparison down by using poor logic.



 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
5
81
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Barry Bonds Career home leader
* Steroids
* Prick
* Cheater
* Hated by the media
* Hated by teamates

Did anyone notice how the team just hung out in the dugout?
When did he cheat?

BTW, lots of his teammates came out and congratulated him.
You don't seem to argue steroids, but you pick cheater?
I'm about 100% sure that he did steroids.

I'm about 100% sure that he was not the only one on steroids.

Steroids was not cheating in baseball for years. It was illegal in the US but there were no rules against in Major League Baseball.

If you want to put an asterisk next to Barry Bonds and his record, you need to put on next to a litany of other players from the same era including Roger Clemens and his 350+ wins, Sammy Sosa and his 600+ home runs, Jason Giambi and his 2000 MVP, etc etc etc..

Just because the guy is a jerk doesn't mean that what he accomplished is not impressive.

I'm not a Barry Bonds apologist, btw.
Yes, yes you do. Give em all *'s, and start testing regularly and randomly. Cycling, Baseball, etc, etc, etc
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,131
54
91
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
How is it impressive if he used steroids? Especially when it's a record based directly on hitting power?
How many of the pitchers that he faced were up to the same thing that he was?

There's no way to know.
That means nothing. As a direct result of his cheating he holds this record.
Using steroids was not against the rules of MLB and he has never been caught or suspended for using performance enhancing drugs.
Breaking the law is against the rules, therefore Bonds cheated. Doesn't matter if MLB had a rule against 'roids or not.

They don't have a rule against the outfielders carrying shotguns to shoot down home run balls, either, but since it's against the law to have firearms in the ballpark, it's automatically against the rules of the game.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,131
54
91
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
How is it impressive if he used steroids? Especially when it's a record based directly on hitting power?
How many of the pitchers that he faced were up to the same thing that he was?

There's no way to know.
That means nothing. As a direct result of his cheating he holds this record.
The problem I have with this is you cannot prove what steroids did for his home run totals (making the assumption that he did use them).

First, you still have to hit a baseball, and no amount of steroids is going to help you do that. Barry had talent that is undeniable, and is one of the few human beings on earth that could hit both a 95mph fastball and a major league curve in the stands. The only thing steroids could have done is make him more powerful and hit balls longer distances. He was already a power hitter though, so how do you prove how many of his home runs needed the benefit of whatever steroids gave him? And ask other people have mentioned, he was probably facing a lot of pitchers who were also juiced. Just look at how many people can throw in the high 90s versus how many there were 15 years ago, and you have to think steroids is all over baseball and not just the hitters.
Wrong. Steroids make you stronger. Being stronger makes your swing faster. Having a faster swing allows you wait a longer time to judge a pitch. If you can have the patience to wait and discern fastball/curve/slider/changeup and then the muscle to act on your judgment you will be a very rich man.
Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
That's such a laughable statement that it doesn't even deserve a response, but I'll give you one anyway.....yes, there is scientific proof that getting stronger can make your swing faster, just like getting stronger can make you jump higher, run faster, and throw faster.

 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,131
54
91
Originally posted by: LikeLinus
Originally posted by: Squisher
It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that your average 18 year old swings a bat faster than your average 8 year old. Why? Maybe because the the 18 year old is stronger?
But it does apparently take an idiot to think an fully developed 18 year old is a good comparison to a pre-pubescent 8 year old boy as far as strength.
Just like comparing a 'roided-up Bonds now to the early Bonds.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,131
54
91
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Those pictures don't show anything. He got bigger as he got older. So do a lot of people, and they don't use steroids.
Most people's heads don't get bigger. Search for some comparisons of Bonds' head vs. when he was younger.

BTW, yes, Bonds has ADMITTED to doing steroids.....only he claims he "didn't knowingly do them"....yeah, right.

So again, Barry Bonds has absolutely, 100-percent confirmed his use of steroids. Well-documented, look it up.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,131
54
91
Originally posted by: tconthepc3
Hank Aaron was the true baseball player great though.
Mr Aaron was a true gentleman. Bonds was a Hall of Famer before he started doing 'roids and hitting tons of homers, but he was a Hall of Fame asshole to go with it. Never will he be half the man that Henry Aaron is.

I've seen some folks try to say it's a racist thing towards Bonds. BULL. Hank Aaron had to deal with FAR more than Bonds has. And all of the hatred he had to deal with wasn't even racial.....it had to do with how much people loved Babe Ruth.
Even a white player, Roger Maris, had to deal with the backlash of surpassing the Babe's single-season HR mark.

I remember being a little kid when Hank was chasing the record.....I grew up and live in the South. Sure, there were some old men around who grumbled about a black man breaking the record, but all the kids I knew loved Hank Aaron.

Those old enough can remember the "Oh Henry" candy bars....the TV commercial would show Hank smacking a homer and a crowd screaming "OH Henry!".

What does Bonds advertise? Who wants to hear him hawking anything? It's not just because he's a cheater, and it's certainly nothing to do with his skin color.

It's because he's a Class A, registered-with-papers, asshole. Plain and simple.

People who hate A-Rod are going to love him when he starts getting near the record, just so they can see Bonds erased from the list.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
11,998
1,967
126
sportscenter just featured a great tribute to Hank Aarons accomplishments in baseball, society and this country as a whole. bonds breaking the record, and the way he did it, just strengthens the legend of Hank Aaron.

Hank Aaron will always be the HR king and as long as A-Rod stays healthy we will have another in the next decade. bonds will see his record shattered which i would imagine will crush his jackass ego as he fades away into the same history book as OJ.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
How is it impressive if he used steroids? Especially when it's a record based directly on hitting power?
How many of the pitchers that he faced were up to the same thing that he was?

There's no way to know.
That means nothing. As a direct result of his cheating he holds this record.
The problem I have with this is you cannot prove what steroids did for his home run totals (making the assumption that he did use them).

First, you still have to hit a baseball, and no amount of steroids is going to help you do that. Barry had talent that is undeniable, and is one of the few human beings on earth that could hit both a 95mph fastball and a major league curve in the stands. The only thing steroids could have done is make him more powerful and hit balls longer distances. He was already a power hitter though, so how do you prove how many of his home runs needed the benefit of whatever steroids gave him? And ask other people have mentioned, he was probably facing a lot of pitchers who were also juiced. Just look at how many people can throw in the high 90s versus how many there were 15 years ago, and you have to think steroids is all over baseball and not just the hitters.
Wrong. Steroids make you stronger. Being stronger makes your swing faster. Having a faster swing allows you wait a longer time to judge a pitch. If you can have the patience to wait and discern fastball/curve/slider/changeup and then the muscle to act on your judgment you will be a very rich man.
Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that your average 18 year old swings a bat faster than your average 8 year old. Why? Maybe because the the 18 year old is stronger?

Is anyone denying that a trained athlete is better then an untrained athlete? What do steroids do? They make your muscle recovery time shorter. You can train more and yet muscles can recover. Take your average Joe and have him swing a bat for the first time in his life. He will swing it at a slower rate than that same Joe who spends his life playing baseball and learning to swing a faster bat. Give that Joe steroids and he can train more.
What kind of comparison is that? All the athletes in the pros are adults and therefore you compare apples to apples. Comparing them to an 8 year old makes no sense and does not support your argument. Bat speed is not just a measure of strength, it is also a measure of the type of reaction time between brain and muscle. While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
How is it impressive if he used steroids? Especially when it's a record based directly on hitting power?
How many of the pitchers that he faced were up to the same thing that he was?

There's no way to know.
That means nothing. As a direct result of his cheating he holds this record.
The problem I have with this is you cannot prove what steroids did for his home run totals (making the assumption that he did use them).

First, you still have to hit a baseball, and no amount of steroids is going to help you do that. Barry had talent that is undeniable, and is one of the few human beings on earth that could hit both a 95mph fastball and a major league curve in the stands. The only thing steroids could have done is make him more powerful and hit balls longer distances. He was already a power hitter though, so how do you prove how many of his home runs needed the benefit of whatever steroids gave him? And ask other people have mentioned, he was probably facing a lot of pitchers who were also juiced. Just look at how many people can throw in the high 90s versus how many there were 15 years ago, and you have to think steroids is all over baseball and not just the hitters.
Wrong. Steroids make you stronger. Being stronger makes your swing faster. Having a faster swing allows you wait a longer time to judge a pitch. If you can have the patience to wait and discern fastball/curve/slider/changeup and then the muscle to act on your judgment you will be a very rich man.
Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
That's such a laughable statement that it doesn't even deserve a response, but I'll give you one anyway.....yes, there is scientific proof that getting stronger can make your swing faster, just like getting stronger can make you jump higher, run faster, and throw faster.
Then why respond? And why not show us the proof instead of claiming that it exists. I really want to see it, because if true, could sway my argument. Science has everything to do with whether or not steriods can make a player hit more home runs, especially one already known for being capable of hitting them regularly. If steroids cannot make one have a faster swing and hit more balls, then the moral argument of steroids being cheating in baseball loses a lot of legitimacy.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,938
20,891
136
one thing I could never understand...why do people think that roids increases one's ability to hit homeruns? they don't, and even the casual sports fan/athlete/nutritionist knows this. I find it hypocritical to the point of disgust that MLB, in order to INCREASE homerun production, and thus scoring and fan interest, advocated shorter ballparks over the last decade or so. This, and this alone, is what lead to an increase in homerun production. Of course, when steroids quickly became a media-frenzy, MLB jumps on the bandwagon and wags its fingers at homeruns=steroids.

That being said, I don't advocate Barry's *likely "cheating" for several years, but no one can deny--steroids or not--that he isn't the greatest ball player of his generation.
 

DougK62

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2001
8,035
6
81
Originally posted by: zinfamous
one thing I could never understand...why do people think that roids increases one's ability to hit homeruns? they don't, and even the casual sports fan/athlete/nutritionist knows this. I find it hypocritical to the point of disgust that MLB, in order to INCREASE homerun production, and thus scoring and fan interest, advocated shorter ballparks over the last decade or so. This, and this alone, is what lead to an increase in homerun production. Of course, when steroids quickly became a media-frenzy, MLB jumps on the bandwagon and wags its fingers at homeruns=steroids.

That being said, I don't advocate Barry's *likely "cheating" for several years, but no one can deny--steroids or not--that he isn't the greatest ball player of his generation.
Like someone else said, steroids allow you to swing the bat faster, which lets you wait on a pitch longer. This absolutely gives you an advantage to hitting the ball "just right", and will lead to more homeruns. Any baseball PLAYER will tell you this. Sure, he hit them before, which is why he turned into a homerun monster when he started taking roids. Just look at McGwire, Bonds, Palmero, etc. - they got on the juice and started popping out homeruns like crazy for just this reason.

 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,414
616
126
he should have been intentionally walked at every at bat until the season was over.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: wyvrn
Originally posted by: LoKe
Originally posted by: mpitts
Originally posted by: LoKe
How is it impressive if he used steroids? Especially when it's a record based directly on hitting power?
How many of the pitchers that he faced were up to the same thing that he was?

There's no way to know.
That means nothing. As a direct result of his cheating he holds this record.
The problem I have with this is you cannot prove what steroids did for his home run totals (making the assumption that he did use them).

First, you still have to hit a baseball, and no amount of steroids is going to help you do that. Barry had talent that is undeniable, and is one of the few human beings on earth that could hit both a 95mph fastball and a major league curve in the stands. The only thing steroids could have done is make him more powerful and hit balls longer distances. He was already a power hitter though, so how do you prove how many of his home runs needed the benefit of whatever steroids gave him? And ask other people have mentioned, he was probably facing a lot of pitchers who were also juiced. Just look at how many people can throw in the high 90s versus how many there were 15 years ago, and you have to think steroids is all over baseball and not just the hitters.
Wrong. Steroids make you stronger. Being stronger makes your swing faster. Having a faster swing allows you wait a longer time to judge a pitch. If you can have the patience to wait and discern fastball/curve/slider/changeup and then the muscle to act on your judgment you will be a very rich man.
Show me scientific proof of where brute strength equates to a 'faster' swing. You aren't going to find it.
That's such a laughable statement that it doesn't even deserve a response, but I'll give you one anyway.....yes, there is scientific proof that getting stronger can make your swing faster, just like getting stronger can make you jump higher, run faster, and throw faster.
I think a lot of it would have to do with agility. Martial artists who can swing weapons incredibly fast are certainly going to be very strong but that doesn't mean they'd need to be able to bench huge loads of weight and dose up on roids.



IMO there doesn't need to be any asterisk. Maybe he used, but who cares, he's been under the scope for so long now and is still knocking out balls and the fact that he's still playing when "everyone knows he cheated" tells me that its the MLB that is screwed up and we should be complaining about the MLB instead of Bonds.

If he used and is still using, then its the MLB that is incredibly screwed up not to kick him out. If he used and got away with it and is no longer using, well he's still producing homeruns without them isn't he (and what about any pitchers using roids against him - that's a two way street, no?)? If he never used then that makes all those all fired up pretty big idiots...

A recent BC comic about baseball that I loved went like this:
reporter: "Why aren't there any cheerleaders in baseball, coach?"
coach: "Have you lost your mind?...What in blazes would they ever have to cheer about?"

You know baseball is lame when the biggest news is over a f***ing statistic. Give me a break. Its too bad football can't come any sooner...only a few more weeks to put up with this crap I guess.
 

DanTMWTMP

Lifer
Oct 7, 2001
15,906
12
81
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn...tory?page=hruby/060512

Extra size and strength equals extra bat speed.

Robert Adair wrote the book on baseball physics. Literally. His "The Physics of Baseball" has enjoyed multiple editions and is considered the classic text in its field.

On page 139, Adair provides an equation relating bat speed (that is, the speed of the bat's sweet spot at the moment it makes contact with the ball) to player weight:

V = k sqrt(M/(m+M/81))

(Note: V is the velocity of the bat in miles per hour, m is the bat weight in pounds, M is the player's weight in pounds, sqrt means square root and k is a constant, 10, in mph. Phew!)

According to Adair's formula -- and don't worry, we asked him to double-check the calculations, since our last math class came in high school -- the 206-pound Bonds generates a bat speed of 67.34 mph, while the 228-pound Bonds swings the same 32-ounce bat at 68.81 mph, an increase of 1.48 mph.

Trust us: That's more impressive than it sounds.

Bat speed is the key to power hitting.

Jack Mankin is an electrical engineer. He also is a youth baseball coach and something of a baseball swing junkie.

Way back in 1986, Mankin bought a VCR that featured frame-by-frame replay, a rare and exotic luxury at the time. He taped about 100 major league games, then set out to chart the swing mechanics that separated great hitters from average ones.

Mankin taped plastic strips to his television screen. He used a grease pencil to trace body movement. He plugged his findings into computer spreadsheets. He's still at it today.

Recently, Mankin looked over clips of Bonds, from 1988 and the present. Conclusion?

"There's absolutely no change," said Mankin, who runs a Web site devoted to bat speed. "The only difference is that back then, most of his home runs were just enough to clear a 360-foot fence. Now, he's up to 400-some with the same dang swing."

The same dang swing. Only faster. In an excellent 2005 San Diego Union-Tribune article detailing the effects of steroid use on power hitting, major league scouts claim Bonds' bat speed not only stopped declining but also increased during the time he worked with Anderson -- an observation consistent with Adair's weight-to-bat speed formula.

...


More on confidence: "Game of Shadows" reports that performance enhancers improved Bonds' eyesight, helping him track pitches. Coincidence? Not necessarily. Extra bat speed means extra time to differentiate between a fastball and a slider.

Moreover, a 2002 University of California San Francisco study found that older men with higher testosterone levels performed better on cognition tests than men with lower levels. Two years later, Harvard researchers discovered that men with higher testosterone levels are quicker to solve spatial-relationship problems.

Really, what is spotting and crushing a major league fastball if not a spatial-relationship problem ... played out at warp speed?

"People talk about bat speed, but nobody talks about [Bonds'] eyesight," said the major league scout. "He sees a pitch so quick, so early. He can see it and relay that information to his muscles faster than anyone else. That's what all good hitters do. They know what the ball is when it has been out of the pitcher's hand for just 10, 15 feet. Only special people do this."
This article was posted here when it was published. interesting read.
 

SludgeFactory

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2001
2,969
2
81
I thought all the Bonds' apologists had moved on to the "everybody else is doing it" defense. You can at least argue that one a little bit.

At the most fundamental level, basic biomechanics dictates that torque production and angular velocity at a joint is a function of force input and lever arm. The ways to increase force input are to make the muscle bigger and/or learn how to recruit more of its fibers.

Obviously there are a lot of things that go into a baseball swing and generating power with it, and muscle size isn't #1 on the list. But it is a factor, and it's even more important when you reach a level where everybody has a high degree of skill and are looking for any edge they can get.

And forget muscle bulk, steroids are a great tool for recuperation over a 162-game season and for career longevity. I've said this before, Bonds is/was getting the same benefits from this as any middle-aged guy who pays thousands of bucks for hormone replacement therapy.





Text

Baseball batting. An electromyographic study.

Shaffer B, Jobe FW, Pink M, Perry J.

Department of Orthopaedics, Georgetown Medical Center, Washington, D.C.

The muscle firing pattern in 12 muscles throughout the lower extremity, trunk, and upper extremity during the batting swing is described in this study. The two hamstring muscles studied and the gluteal muscle had a similar pattern of high muscle activity during pre-swing and early swing, and then rapidly diminished. The vastus medialis demonstrated peak activity between 95 and 110% maximum muscle test (MMT) throughout the swing phases and follow-through. The erector spinae demonstrated activity from 85 to 185% MMT during the swing phases. The abdominal obliques showed greater than 100% MMT during the swing phases and follow-through. The supraspinatus and serratus anterior showed relatively low muscle activity (less than 40% MMT). These results show that batting is a sequence of coordinated muscle activity, beginning with the hip, followed by the trunk, and terminating with the arms. Power in the swing is initiated in the hip, and therefore exercises that emphasize such strength development are indicated. The maintained, high muscle activity in the trunk muscles indicates a need for back and abdominal stabilization and rotation exercises. The relatively low level of activity in the four scapulohumeral muscles tested indicated that emphasis should be placed on the trunk and hip muscles for a batter's strengthening program.

 

SludgeFactory

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2001
2,969
2
81
Originally posted by: zinfamous
I find it hypocritical to the point of disgust that MLB, in order to INCREASE homerun production, and thus scoring and fan interest, advocated shorter ballparks over the last decade or so. This, and this alone, is what lead to an increase in homerun production.
I believe you have to consider the evolution of the tiny, shoebox strikezone and talent dilution with expansion teams during the 90's also. Oh, and batter armor. But there's no doubt that everybody in charge wanted HR, and many built parks to make that happen. The Phillies' park is a joke of a bandbox.

I think it ultimately isn't all that good for the game. You get surges in short term interest with all these HR, but baseball games have turned into 3.5-4 hr bloated borefests, standing around waiting to mash the ball. I'd rather see fast-paced games with a lot of action on the basepaths.
 

SludgeFactory

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2001
2,969
2
81
Originally posted by: DanTMWTMP
This article was posted here when it was published. interesting read.
The last bit there about Bonds' eyesight is probably overlooked by a lot of people. Everybody connected to the game seems to rave about his pitch recognition over this second phase of his career.

I've read anecdotal accounts of growth hormone significantly improving eyesight. No joke. ;)
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Most people's heads don't get bigger. Search for some comparisons of Bonds' head vs. when he was younger.
My head keeps getting bigger as I get older. Just read my posts.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,207
65
91
Originally posted by: wyvrn
What kind of comparison is that? All the athletes in the pros are adults and therefore you compare apples to apples. Comparing them to an 8 year old makes no sense and does not support your argument. Bat speed is not just a measure of strength, it is also a measure of the type of reaction time between brain and muscle. While steroids can make someone stronger and hit a ball farther (supposedly), it cannot make them have better eye-hand coordination or make them swing faster. Again, you will not be able to find scientific evidence to support your claim.
Would those here be more accepting if I compared the JV team to the varsity team and said 16 year olds cannot generally swing a bat as fast their 18 year old brethren because they haven't yet developed the strength to do so??????

Bat speed is strength and agility. Your reaction time that's hard wired into your brain wouldn't have to increase, but you will be given more time to react. Why? because you can wait longer knowing that you now have injected the ability to better train yourself to be faster.

Why would I need a scientist to tell me a 300 hp car is faster than a 299 hp car?

 

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