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51,000 dead of coronavirus

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zzyzxroad said:
Just to clarify, you think it is plausible that NY hospitals are highly elevating Covid death counts?
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Not just NY hospitals. I thinks it’s plausible across all hospitals in the United States. How do you you prove this? I don’t know. I also think it’s naive if someone thinks there is no such thing as reimbursement fraud in the medical industry, especially when reimbursement from Medicare for covid-19 has increased.
 
Batmeat said:
Not just NY hospitals. I thinks it’s plausible across all hospitals in the United States. How do you you prove this? I don’t know. I also think it’s naive if someone thinks there is no such thing as reimbursement fraud in the medical industry, especially when reimbursement from Medicare for covid-19 has increased.
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If anyone is making money by lying, you can bet it's either Trump supporters or Trump himself...you'd be naive not to.
 
Batmeat said:
Not just NY hospitals. I thinks it’s plausible across all hospitals in the United States. How do you you prove this? I don’t know. I also think it’s naive if someone thinks there is no such thing as reimbursement fraud in the medical industry, especially when reimbursement from Medicare for covid-19 has increased.
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Pull stats on causes of death. Generally speaking covid deaths are over above what we would expect to see normally. If all other causes of death have dramatically decreased you may be able to make a case based on the stats.
 
interchange said:
@Batmeat what amount of elevation in death count would you consider "highly elevated"?

Assuming your premise is right that hospitals are committing fraud, what is the maximum percentage of non-COVID deaths being spun as COVID deaths would you think was plausibly occurring?
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That’s the million dollar question. It’s not a good comparison to say “it’s like the flu” as it’s been touted because there’s no vaccine for it, making the entire world population base susceptible (granted I’m sure there some outlier individuals).
How is a death rate determined except from past experience? Models can be created but it’s all prediction at best until a baseline is established.

to answer your question, I think the only way to know is to audit every hospital death that was documented as Covid-19. what if someone was shot in the chest and found positive for Covid-19? The risk of death from Covid-19 in that example I would argue is low to irrelevant, yet all it takes is some creative documentation by the person running trauma code to increase the reimbursement fee.

I don’t think it’s likely audits will happen though.
 
brycejones said:
Pull stats on causes of death. Generally speaking covid deaths are over above what we would expect to see normally. If all other causes of death have dramatically decreased you may be able to make a case based on the stats.
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That’s a great idea. Specifically, look at the trend of pneumonia deaths in large hospitals and see if those numbers significantly drop, or even other pulmonary diseases.
 
brycejones said:
Pull stats on causes of death. Generally speaking covid deaths are over above what we would expect to see normally. If all other causes of death have dramatically decreased you may be able to make a case based on the stats.
Click to expand...

Of course, the true conspiracy theorist will then argue the hospitals are inventing dead people and demand to see all the bodies. There's no way of ever winning against such types.

www.nytimes.com

The Pandemic’s Hidden Toll: Half a Million Deaths (Published 2020)

Far more people died in 2020 during the pandemic than have been officially reported, a review of mortality data in 35 countries shows.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

In case people don't have an nyt account or refuse to click links - couple of examples

No graph for the US yet, but won't be hard to see the effect of the virus once the data is in, and I see no sign of deaths being misattributed.,

1587830593616.png
.
 
Batmeat said:
That’s the million dollar question. It’s not a good comparison to say “it’s like the flu” as it’s been touted because there’s no vaccine for it, making the entire world population base susceptible (granted I’m sure there some outlier individuals).
How is a death rate determined except from past experience? Models can be created but it’s all prediction at best until a baseline is established.

to answer your question, I think the only way to know is to audit every hospital death that was documented as Covid-19. what if someone was shot in the chest and found positive for Covid-19? The risk of death from Covid-19 in that example I would argue is low to irrelevant, yet all it takes is some creative documentation by the person running trauma code to increase the reimbursement fee.

I don’t think it’s likely audits will happen though.
Click to expand...

I'm just trying to help you more concretely define what you are arguing. If you want me to explore it's plausibility with you, we need a clearer understanding of what your statements mean. Please respond to the questions as written.

You could, for example, say that a 50% inflation of reported in-hospital case fatalities would be what it takes to substantiate that reported fatalities are "highly elevated". Pick a different number if you think that one isn't right.

You could also, for example, say that 20% of hospital deaths being fraudulently reported as due to COVID-19 is the most you could imagine fraud being committed and undetected to this point. Pick a different number if you don't think that's right.
 
Batmeat said:
If there was data available, yes. but just because the death rate is 51000 doesn’t mean it’s not higher or lower than that.
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You have zero evidence, I have to assume you are pushing your random theory because it meets a political agenda of yours.

The actual evidence is all the other way. E.g. the figures for NYC deaths show 3,800 excess deaths compared to the average for the past 20 years, over-and-above those attributed to coronavirus. i..e the coronavirus deaths are probably being substantially _under_ counted. But you don't bother to look up the contrary evidence, because you have a conclusion you want to reach, so you invent evidence to get there, while carefully not looking for the actual evidence.
 
Batmeat said:
That’s the million dollar question. It’s not a good comparison to say “it’s like the flu” as it’s been touted because there’s no vaccine for it, making the entire world population base susceptible (granted I’m sure there some outlier individuals).
How is a death rate determined except from past experience? Models can be created but it’s all prediction at best until a baseline is established.

to answer your question, I think the only way to know is to audit every hospital death that was documented as Covid-19. what if someone was shot in the chest and found positive for Covid-19? The risk of death from Covid-19 in that example I would argue is low to irrelevant, yet all it takes is some creative documentation by the person running trauma code to increase the reimbursement fee.

I don’t think it’s likely audits will happen though.
Click to expand...
Do you know how a death certificate is signed and how deaths from COVID are accounted? It sounds like you don't.
 
[QUOTE="TheVrolok, post: 40143640, member: 36712"





Wait what? A fellow physician? In the other thread you told us you had "degrees in psychology and physician assisting."

Which is it?
[/QUOTE]
My statement is perfect clear on this. I suggest you re-read it. Regarding the other thread, I said I was done with it and I’m not going back.
 
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amrnuke said:
Do you know how a death certificate is signed and how deaths from COVID are accounted? It sounds like you don't.
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I’ve signed death certificates that’s easy to do. What I don’t know is how they’re documenting internally.
 
Batmeat said:
My statement is perfect clear On how I met him and who he is. Reread it. Regarding the other thread, I said I was done with it and I’m not going back.
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Perfectly clear? You said "Fellow MD," I am quoting you exactly. "Fellow MD" implies that you and he are both medical doctors, but you said in the other thread you were a PA? So which is it?

I'll ask again, is English your second language? Or maybe you're trying to gaslight? Or just lying?
 
Batmeat said:
I’ve signed death certificates that’s easy to do. What I don’t know is how they’re documenting internally.
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What they document internally for billing != what is reported externally to the health department to count COVID deaths.
 
TheVrolok said:
Wait what? A fellow physician? In the other thread you told us you had "degrees in psychology and physician assisting."

Which is it?
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I see the the confusion now. You’re assuming my use of the word “fellow” constitutes that I have an MD degree as well, which I do not.
 
pmv said:
You have zero evidence, I have to assume you are pushing your random theory because it meets a political agenda of yours.

The actual evidence is all the other way. E.g. the figures for NYC deaths show 3,800 excess deaths compared to the average for the past 20 years, over-and-above those attributed to coronavirus. i..e the coronavirus deaths are probably being substantially _under_ counted. But you don't bother to look up the contrary evidence, because you have a conclusion you want to reach, so you invent evidence to get there, while carefully not looking for the actual evidence.
Click to expand...
NYC's death rate is 98% higher than expected from 2/1/2020 to 4/18/2020, 25,978 dead over that time period of which about 12,500 are excess deaths. Official COVID death number was 8,073 on 4/18/2020.

So we have a death excess of 50% cmopared to the official reported COVID deaths.
 
Batmeat said:
No, it’s not in my opinion.
Webster’s

See #3
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That definition doesn't justify your use of the term. A 'fellow X' implies one is an X. Why do you imagine that dictionary definition helps your case? It clearly doesn't. It doesn't even discuss that usage - note that definition you link to is only for the noun, whereas you were using it as an adjective, so it's not even the right definition!

Note all the examples here of "fellow X" (ajdective form) presume the speaker is an X

You wouldn't say 'fellow passenger' when you weren't yourself a passenger.

fellow adjective - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of fellow adjective in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.
www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
 
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Batmeat said:
No, it’s not in my opinion.
Webster’s

See #3
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"a member of a group having common characteristics"
As you wrote, you talked to a fellow MD. You said it, not me.
"Fellow MD" means the group you claim to be a member of is "MD."
A PA is not an MD. A PA is not a physician. In 47 states a PA must practice under the supervision of a physician.

Can you see the confusion?
 
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