51,000 dead of coronavirus

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You have zero evidence, I have to assume you are pushing your random theory because it meets a political agenda of yours.

The actual evidence is all the other way. E.g. the figures for NYC deaths show 3,800 excess deaths compared to the average for the past 20 years, over-and-above those attributed to coronavirus. i..e the coronavirus deaths are probably being substantially _under_ counted. But you don't bother to look up the contrary evidence, because you have a conclusion you want to reach, so you invent evidence to get there, while carefully not looking for the actual evidence.

It's more than that. It's part of the firehose of falsehood method of propaganda. Consistency is not required when confusion rather than persuasion is the objective. The objective is to render the subjects incapable of rational decision making. They can't reconcile all the conflicting information & are therefore more manipulable at an emotional level. You know, the usual right wing conspiracy theories.

The dearth of testing creates a grey area exploitable by propaganda. Was it really the virus? Can hospitals cheat? (Ask Rick Scott) What if they're over reporting cuz the monies? Maybe it's not really that bad! Blah blah blah. Dump that load with the rest of it.

At worst, 51K is a reasonable ballpark figure. We ain't seen nothing yet, either.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,376
5,337
146
It's more than that. It's part of the firehose of falsehood method of propaganda. Consistency is not required when confusion rather than persuasion is the objective. The objective is to render the subjects incapable of rational decision making. They can't reconcile all the conflicting information & are therefore more manipulable at an emotional level. You know, the usual right wing conspiracy theories.

The dearth of testing creates a grey area exploitable by propaganda. Was it really the virus? Can hospitals cheat? (Ask Rick Scott) What if they're over reporting cuz the monies? Maybe it's not really that bad! Blah blah blah. Dump that load with the rest of it.

At worst, 51K is a reasonable ballpark figure. We ain't seen nothing yet, either.
It's a variation of the gish gallop
fuck occam's razor, hold my beer, blah blah ad nauseum.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
News: committing fraud can gain you money says person. We looked into it. And it works!

Conclusion: people are committing large amounts of fraud!

Evidence: well, they'd profit from it if they did!

In legal terms, that is the equivalent of convicting someone because they theoretically had a motive, but with zero other evidence. For conspiracy theorists, you're convicted in their minds by motive alone. If you possibly had reason to do it, you did it.
 
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zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,255
2,272
136
Not just NY hospitals. I thinks it’s plausible across all hospitals in the United States. How do you you prove this? I don’t know. I also think it’s naive if someone thinks there is no such thing as reimbursement fraud in the medical industry, especially when reimbursement from Medicare for covid-19 has increased.
Gotcha. Healthcare isn't something I know a lot about but I assume doctors and people working in labs don't have a financial incentive when it comes to this nation wide covid scam. Do either make more money if they handle a covid case resulting in death? Not the hospital or labs but those specific employees.
 

amrnuke

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2019
1,181
1,772
136
Gotcha. Healthcare isn't something I know a lot about but I assume doctors and people working in labs don't have a financial incentive when it comes to this nation wide covid scam. Do either make more money if they handle a covid case resulting in death? Not the hospital or labs but those specific employees.
No, generally, we don't get more pay for taking care of COVID patients.

Even in the most critically ill patient, the highest level of billing is time-based for critical care time and for 30-74 minutes spent, nets you $243 from Medicare (each additional 30 minutes nets $122) and includes treatment for all diagnoses exclusive of procedures, which can be billed separately. That $365, assuming you spent 1h 45m providing direct care in the ICU, has to cover your office costs and so on. While $200 an hour is a good rate, most physicians have 50% or higher overheads to cover their staff, accreditation, office rent, etc, so you're netting at most $100 an hour, and out of that you have to pay back your student loans, state board, medical board, and so on.

But COVID patients who are on vents for instance don't get you any more money than flu patients or cardiac arrest patients other than sometimes they may take more time, which Medicare pays you for.

(As you can tell, being a physician is not a terribly lucrative field. Some docs make a lot of money by churning through patients/procedures in what I'd deem a very unethical way, but considering most of us spent about 10 years in med school + residency + fellowship and have on average $200,000-$300,000 in student loan debt, while we live comfortably, we are by and large not wealthy people in any real sense.)
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
No, generally, we don't get more pay for taking care of COVID patients.

Even in the most critically ill patient, the highest level of billing is time-based for critical care time and for 30-74 minutes spent, nets you $243 from Medicare (each additional 30 minutes nets $122) and includes treatment for all diagnoses exclusive of procedures, which can be billed separately. That $365, assuming you spent 1h 45m providing direct care in the ICU, has to cover your office costs and so on. While $200 an hour is a good rate, most physicians have 50% or higher overheads to cover their staff, accreditation, office rent, etc, so you're netting at most $100 an hour, and out of that you have to pay back your student loans, state board, medical board, and so on.

But COVID patients who are on vents for instance don't get you any more money than flu patients or cardiac arrest patients other than sometimes they may take more time, which Medicare pays you for.

(As you can tell, being a physician is not a terribly lucrative field. Some docs make a lot of money by churning through patients/procedures in what I'd deem a very unethical way, but considering most of us spent about 10 years in med school + residency + fellowship and have on average $200,000-$300,000 in student loan debt, while we live comfortably, we are by and large not wealthy people in any real sense.)

It's a long game where you can become quite well off later in life, particularly in some specialties. Nothing wrong with that.

That's pretty far removed from the topic at hand, as is the whole idea of overbilling. I mean, we went from "Uhh-oh. Looks like something bad is happening over there" to 51K dead in this country in 3 months. More than we lost in Vietnam. That's despite all efforts to slow it down, which is all we can really do, other than trying to care for the afflicted & wait for better treatments & vaccines to be developed. It'll only get worse from here as we try to open up the economy. Exponential increase is a motherfucker. We just bought some time for the system to hopefully be ready to save as many lives as we reasonably can. Get ready for the Midnight Rambler.
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,255
2,272
136
No, generally, we don't get more pay for taking care of COVID patients.

Even in the most critically ill patient, the highest level of billing is time-based for critical care time and for 30-74 minutes spent, nets you $243 from Medicare (each additional 30 minutes nets $122) and includes treatment for all diagnoses exclusive of procedures, which can be billed separately. That $365, assuming you spent 1h 45m providing direct care in the ICU, has to cover your office costs and so on. While $200 an hour is a good rate, most physicians have 50% or higher overheads to cover their staff, accreditation, office rent, etc, so you're netting at most $100 an hour, and out of that you have to pay back your student loans, state board, medical board, and so on.

But COVID patients who are on vents for instance don't get you any more money than flu patients or cardiac arrest patients other than sometimes they may take more time, which Medicare pays you for.

(As you can tell, being a physician is not a terribly lucrative field. Some docs make a lot of money by churning through patients/procedures in what I'd deem a very unethical way, but considering most of us spent about 10 years in med school + residency + fellowship and have on average $200,000-$300,000 in student loan debt, while we live comfortably, we are by and large not wealthy people in any real sense.)
Thanks for the detail on this. Is this for a private practice? I was talking about a hospital setting. I assume compensation is diffrent when you are contracted with a hospital. Specific to the alleged scheme I did not think doctors would benefit financially in that scenario. With no financial incentive It becomes way less then probable that this covid death inflation is going on. Same train of thought for the folks in the lab processing test results. The two being in cahoots seems even more unrealistic.
 
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skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,376
5,337
146
Not that it matters because the casualty rate will exceed it, but Viet Nam was 58,000 plus, I really don't care for the comparisons anyway.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,376
5,337
146
"With no financial incentive It becomes way less them probable that this covid death inflation is going on. Same train of though for the folks in the lab processing test results. The two being in cahoots seems even more unrealistic."

Yes, it's a completely unsubstantiated accusation and I'd say reprehensible, except that the bar for that kind of thing has disappeared entirely.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
So it seems many states are beginning to re-open this week. Will deaths resulting from this on Trump's hands also?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,603
8,508
136
Thanks for the detail on this. Is this for a private practice? I was talking about a hospital setting. I assume compensation is diffrent when you are contracted with a hospital. Specific to the alleged scheme I did not think doctors would benefit financially in that scenario. With no financial incentive It becomes way less then probable that this covid death inflation is going on. Same train of thought for the folks in the lab processing test results. The two being in cahoots seems even more unrealistic.

Seems to me the whole suggestion is just desperate attempt at sowing FUD. And the actual excess-deaths data that is already in clearly implies the trend is the reverse - covid deaths are being undercounted not 'inflated'. Much as flu deaths would be if they were only based on confirmed cases in hospitals.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,079
136
Fun Fact: most deaths in war are not combat related. They stem from lack of infrastructure, supplies, medicine, clothing, and habitable buildings.
Disease, starvation, exposure, accidents, and misc. are the real killers by volume.
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,255
2,272
136
So it seems many states are beginning to re-open this week. Will deaths resulting from this on Trump's hands also?

In this time of tragedy , sure would be nice to have a leader that didn't sow dissent. It's abnormal and unamerican.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,671
28,824
136
So it seems many states are beginning to re-open this week. Will deaths resulting from this on Trump's hands also?
I'll answer it this way.

Did Trump encourage or discourage Georgia to open? I'm asking that for a reason.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,678
40,017
136
Sure wish we had a scientist or someone who appreciates science in the White House. Maybe if we didn't have a mentally ill narcissistic criminal and treasonous douchebag America's death toll would look a little more like Germany's.

Trump has fuct America in so many ways it's getting difficult to keep count. Though, he's so bad he has a good chance of costing repugs the Senate, it's the one silver lining here.

Keep up with your briefings dipshit. Don't be a loser and run away from the media, be proud of your very good youknowwhat!
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,603
8,508
136
Sure wish we had a scientist or someone who appreciates science in the White House. Maybe if we didn't have a mentally ill narcissistic criminal and treasonous douchebag America's death toll would look a little more like Germany's.

Trump has fuct America in so many ways it's getting difficult to keep count. Though, he's so bad he has a good chance of costing repugs the Senate, it's the one silver lining here.

Keep up with your briefings dipshit. Don't be a loser and run away from the media, be proud of your very good youknowwhat!


To be fair, Germany's numbers are unusually good. It's not just the US they are doing better than, the contrast with, say, Belgium, is startling. When this is over, will be very interesting, even critical, to see why that is (assuming it's not a statistical artifact).

Even though the stats are really unreliable, and comparisons tough, it seems as if the US and UK and Belgium are doing particularly badly, and Germany and South Korea and Taiwan and Singapore have done relatively well. For all Sweden's "different approach" they don't seem to be doing much better than the major European countries, especially if you account for their demographic advantages over Italy or France, and are doing notably worse than other parts of Scandinavia with similar demographics. Germany is the real outlier.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
So it seems many states are beginning to re-open this week. Will deaths resulting from this on Trump's hands also?

He doesn't take responsibility for anything. I did like the way he pump faked actual leadership & handed it off to the Governors. Froze everybody in their tracks for awhile.