5 steps to fix black society

[HendrixFan]

Unfortunately too many on the welfare roles see that the only "Self made" jobs out there are those that are criminal in nature.

That is because for most of them, those are the only jobs they can ever get that will pay them anything close to a livable wage.

 

[HumblePie]

That is because for most of them, those are the only jobs they can ever get that will pay them anything close to a livable wage.

No, that's the excuse they use like you do yourself. Again, SELF MADE. The drive to do something regardless of how bad you are off currently is gone. People have started with less. Zero education, no money, and horrible living circumstances to make something of themselves that didn't involve criminal activities.

Sometimes hard work is required to get some where and people no longer have the will to do it. They rather take the easy way of either handouts or crime.

 

[HendrixFan]

No, that's the excuse they use like you do yourself. Again, SELF MADE. The drive to do something regardless of how bad you are off currently is gone. People have started with less. Zero education, no money, and horrible living circumstances to make something of themselves that didn't involve criminal activities.

Sometimes hard work is required to get some where and people no longer have the will to do it. They rather take the easy way of either handouts or crime.

You can't take exceptional people (in the literal sense) who rise out of poverty due to bell curve breaking intellect or passion or whatever and apply it to the rest of the population. The truth is that class mobility in this country is at third world levels. An average person (and the majority of people will be average or below average) have pretty much no chance of breaking the barriers society has placed that restrict their ability for achievement.

I grew up in poverty and saw it first hand. My test scores were always in the 99th percentile and it was easy for me to get into a tier one university and move up the income ladder from the terrible childhood I had. I watched as plenty of hard working and intelligent kids were crushed by the burdens of poverty and family. Nearly all had to choose to help themselves and turn their back on family, or help support the family and give up their future. That is a terrible choice to make for a 15 yr old. They can help take care of their younger siblings or their own future, but not both. Food on the table now or watch them starve, struggle and get swallowed by poverty so that maybe 8 years from now they can have a degree and a nice paying job and then start to help them.

When I got to college I very quickly found that at least 80% of the kids there were silver spoon in the mouth types who didn't have to work to get where they were and many were still coasting. They grew up in the upper quintiles and life just happened for them. Many of them didn't have the same level of intellect or drive as those I grew up with but they had "achieved" so much more in life by the age of 19.

If I had been born with a nice bell curve fitting intellect I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten away from poverty. It is foolish to point at an individual accomplishment though, and ignore the statistics that show class mobility doesn't really exist. Just because a few people are able to do a certain thing, that doesn't mean everyone is able to. For those that aren't able, unfortunately crime or welfare is the most reasonable option.

Or crime AND welfare, if you want to double dip. It is the poor person's version of military retirement and state retirement double dipping that people do here in Texas.

 

[Munky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis .txt

Your pretentiously self-aggrandizing wannabe clever link ironically devoid of all commentary does little to further your argument. In fact, it does nothing.

 

[justoh]

No, that's the excuse they use like you do yourself. Again, SELF MADE. The drive to do something regardless of how bad you are off currently is gone. People have started with less. Zero education, no money, and horrible living circumstances to make something of themselves that didn't involve criminal activities.

Sometimes hard work is required to get some where and people no longer have the will to do it. They rather take the easy way of either handouts or crime.

When you change sometimes, to all the time, or usually, then it makes more sense that people would give up, as you imply. Who was it that said it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society?

Also, if everyone is trying just as hard, then what? What if everyone is on 11, then your argument has no more breathing room. And if you don't try as hard do you deserve to die? Who judges? What about people with disabilities? What about people with unrecognized disabilities? Selfishness is a defendable position, but then you should take all the poor people out and shoot them already, instead of keeping them around for sport (something to complain about and feel self righteous over). If you feel any pride while passing any of your judgments then you're probably guilty of something, since you're looking for problems instead of solutions.

 

[nehalem256]

You can't take exceptional people (in the literal sense) who rise out of poverty due to bell curve breaking intellect or passion or whatever and apply it to the rest of the population. The truth is that class mobility in this country is at third world levels. An average person (and the majority of people will be average or below average) have pretty much no chance of breaking the barriers society has placed that restrict their ability for achievement.

...

If I had been born with a nice bell curve fitting intellect I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten away from poverty. It is foolish to point at an individual accomplishment though, and ignore the statistics that show class mobility doesn't really exist. Just because a few people are able to do a certain thing, that doesn't mean everyone is able to. For those that aren't able, unfortunately crime or welfare is the most reasonable option.

Sure it does. But guess what are the 2 biggest predictors of class immobility?

Unwed motherhood and divorce.

 

[BoberFett]

What's wrong with only moving up one quintile? Why does the "liberal" dream of success always have to involved rags to riches? How about rags to average? Why isn't that acceptable?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

What's wrong with only moving up one quintile? Why does the "liberal" dream of success always have to involved rags to riches? How about rags to average? Why isn't that acceptable?

But... but... my favorite rapper did it! Why can't I?? THIS SHIT AINT FAIR YO'

 

[HendrixFan]

Sure it does. But guess what are the 2 biggest predictors of class immobility?

Unwed motherhood and divorce.

I'm not sure where you get that statistic from, but the biggest predictor is where you are born. Being born in the US subjects you to the worst class mobility of any developed nation. There may be some correlation between unwed motherhood, which is an issue I touched on as one of the three primary things you can fix to tackle the problem, but I think you are confusing an outcome of living in poverty with a cause of living in poverty.

Do you think someone is more likely to fall from upper quintiles into poverty by having a child as a teenager, or do you think someone is more likely to have a child as a teenager while living in poverty? If it is the former then you are correct. If it is the latter, then I'm correct that kids having kids is a reinforcing cycle found to keep people in poverty and not a root cause.

Let me clarify what I mean by class mobility doesn't exist. It doesn't exist as a practical matter here in the US. There are plenty of safeguards put in place that effectively keep those in gated communities in their gated communities and those living in poverty kept in poverty.

 

[justoh]

It's just the way it is.

And although it seems heaven sent,
we ain't ready to see a black President, uhh.
It ain't a secret don't conceal the fact...
the penitentiary's packed, and it's filled with blacks.
But some things will never change.
Try to show another way, but they stayin' in the dope game.
Now tell me what's a mother to do?
Bein' real don't appeal to the brother in you.
You gotta operate the easy way.
"I made a G today" But you made it in a sleazy way.
Sellin' crack to the kids. "I gotta get paid,"
Well hey, well that's the way it is.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I'm not sure where you get that statistic from, but the biggest predictor is where you are born. Being born in the US subjects you to the worst class mobility of any developed nation. There may be some correlation between unwed motherhood, which is an issue I touched on as one of the three primary things you can fix to tackle the problem, but I think you are confusing an outcome of living in poverty with a cause of living in poverty.

Do you think someone is more likely to fall from upper quintiles into poverty by having a child as a teenager, or do you think someone is more likely to have a child as a teenager while living in poverty? If it is the former then you are correct. If it is the latter, then I'm correct that kids having kids is a reinforcing cycle found to keep people in poverty and not a root cause.

Let me clarify what I mean by class mobility doesn't exist. It doesn't exist as a practical matter here in the US. There are plenty of safeguards put in place that effectively keep those in gated communities in their gated communities and those living in poverty kept in poverty.

Here we go again, another person that says it's "The man" bringing everyone down, and US is SO BAD.

ATX, not surprising. Don't you need to hit up 6th and sit around a bong all day like a 70's hippie? Have you EVER taken a step outside of this nation to make such false proclamations?

 

[HendrixFan]

What's wrong with only moving up one quintile? Why does the "liberal" dream of success always have to involved rags to riches? How about rags to average? Why isn't that acceptable?

If we live in a meritocracy, or something attempting to be mostly a meritocracty, then movement beyond a single quartile would reflect that. More than a third of the population would swing from one end to the other due to the distribution of people's ability being spread fairly evenly throughout classes.

Why isn't that acceptable? Because as a society we ALL do better when those who have ability are able to realize it, or come very close to doing so. Class mobility then is a reflection of the efficiency of a society to put people in a position to succeed and raise the tide for all the ships. The lack of class mobility that the US has demonstrates inefficiency as birth leads to power and wealth despite ability or achievement. Those in the lower rungs aren't given access to make positive changes while those in power are anchors dragging us all down.

Do you know why we fought the revolutionary war? Do you understand one of the more key elements of the formation of this country was built upon the idea that someone's worth was their worth? We escaped monarchical rule and society for a reason.

The problem is the weak have held power for too long. If everything was purely merit based, a bell curve would put most of them out on their ass and into the gutters they see fit to allow everyone else to wallow in. Instead they use their power to grip on as tight as possible and put as many barriers in place as they can to keep the status quo.

The dream doesn't have to be rags to riches, which accordingly points to riches to rags for others. You raise the floor to something reasonable so that everyone has a nice standard of living, the result of living in a robust modern society. From there you provide incentives for merit so that those who can will be able to rise up and contribute more. Insanely more in some cases.

I'm just flummoxed that you would suggest our society would revert to something similar to the colonial rule that we broke free from.

 

[nehalem256]

I'm not sure where you get that statistic from, but the biggest predictor is where you are born. Being born in the US subjects you to the worst class mobility of any developed nation. There may be some correlation between unwed motherhood, which is an issue I touched on as one of the three primary things you can fix to tackle the problem, but I think you are confusing an outcome of living in poverty with a cause of living in poverty.

“ome of the strongest predictors of upward mobility are correlates of social capital and family structure,” the authors wrote. “For instance, high upward mobility areas tended to have higher fractions of religious individuals and fewer children raised by single parents. Each of these correlations remained strong even after controlling for measures of tax expenditures.”

Conversely, breakdown of the traditional family structure was highly correlated with downward income mobility. Factors such as the percentage of single mothers, divorce rates, and teen birth rates in a region were all correlated with downward income mobility. In contrast, factors like social capital and religiosity — which appears to be defined as the fraction of religious adherents in a given region, based on local congregations’ membership estimates — were significantly correlated with upward income mobility.

http://mediatrackers.org/national/2...y-says-strong-families-strong-schools-are-key

Do you think someone is more likely to fall from upper quintiles into poverty by having a child as a teenager, or do you think someone is more likely to have a child as a teenager while living in poverty? If it is the former then you are correct. If it is the latter, then I'm correct that kids having kids is a reinforcing cycle found to keep people in poverty and not a root cause.

Let me clarify what I mean by class mobility doesn't exist. It doesn't exist as a practical matter here in the US. There are plenty of safeguards put in place that effectively keep those in gated communities in their gated communities and those living in poverty kept in poverty.

Poverty does not cause people to have children out of wedlock. I am sure I can find numerous poor 3rd world countries with much lower rates of bastardom than black america.

 

[nehalem256]

If we live in a meritocracy, or something attempting to be mostly a meritocracty, then movement beyond a single quartile would reflect that. More than a third of the population would swing from one end to the other due to the distribution of people's ability being spread fairly evenly throughout classes.

Why do you assume this to be the case?

If 2 professional people with high incomes get married and have children wouldn't you expect their children to be of above average genetic stock?

 

[MiniDoom]

I'm not sure where you get that statistic from, but the biggest predictor is where you are born. Being born in the US subjects you to the worst class mobility of any developed nation. There may be some correlation between unwed motherhood, which is an issue I touched on as one of the three primary things you can fix to tackle the problem, but I think you are confusing an outcome of living in poverty with a cause of living in poverty.

Do you think someone is more likely to fall from upper quintiles into poverty by having a child as a teenager, or do you think someone is more likely to have a child as a teenager while living in poverty? If it is the former then you are correct. If it is the latter, then I'm correct that kids having kids is a reinforcing cycle found to keep people in poverty and not a root cause.

Let me clarify what I mean by class mobility doesn't exist. It doesn't exist as a practical matter here in the US. There are plenty of safeguards put in place that effectively keep those in gated communities in their gated communities and those living in poverty kept in poverty.

My successful wife whose dirt poor family and herself fled a civil war so her mom could come here and clean toilets to send her to school disagrees with you. But hey, she didn't come with a chip on her should with expectations she's owed something.

 

[nehalem256]

My successful wife whose dirt poor family and herself fled a civil war so her mom could come here and clean toilets to send her to school disagrees with you. But hey, she didn't come with a chip on her should with expectations she's owed something.

I bet your wife's mom imparted values into her children.

If you teach your children to work hard, get an education, that getting knocked up at 15 by a drug dealer is not okay your children are much more likely to succeed in life.

 

[HendrixFan]

Here we go again, another person that says it's "The man" bringing everyone down, and US is SO BAD.

ATX, not surprising. Don't you need to hit up 6th and sit around a bong all day like a 70's hippie? Have you EVER taken a step outside of this nation to make such false proclamations?

I'm being honest. The biggest predictor of future wealth is birth. If you are born in Sub-Saharan Africa you won't have the same opportunities as most people in this world, regardless of ability. If you are born in the US you won't have the same mobility as any other developed country. The stats back up that claim. You can be comfortable with the fact that we don't reward merit here, but you can't say that it is anything other than true. I'm not saying the US is so bad. I'm saying the US is so bad at class mobility. It isn't my opinion, it is a fact.

I leave Austin frequently and it is quite shocking to see the lack of diversity and racial harmony that I am used to here. It is shocking when I travel and go days in a large city without seeing a black person. It is shocking to me when my traveling companions are the only people of color (of any sort) in a restaurant or bar. It is shocking to me when I travel and see only a handful of mixed race couples. When I grew up nobody cared what race you were. Nobody cared who you dated. It wasn't until college and venturing out past Austin that I saw that didn't apply everywhere.

 

[nehalem256]

I'm being honest. The biggest predictor of future wealth is birth. If you are born in Sub-Saharan Africa you won't have the same opportunities as most people in this world, regardless of ability. If you are born in the US you won't have the same mobility as any other developed country. The stats back up that claim. You can be comfortable with the fact that we don't reward merit here, but you can't say that it is anything other than true. I'm not saying the US is so bad. I'm saying the US is so bad at class mobility. It isn't my opinion, it is a fact.

I leave Austin frequently and it is quite shocking to see the lack of diversity and racial harmony that I am used to here. It is shocking when I travel and go days in a large city without seeing a black person. It is shocking to me when my traveling companions are the only people of color (of any sort) in a restaurant or bar. It is shocking to me when I travel and see only a handful of mixed race couples. When I grew up nobody cared what race you were. Nobody cared who you dated. It wasn't until college and venturing out past Austin that I saw that didn't apply everywhere.

Actually it isn't that bad.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/01/social-mobility-america

The only real difference is for the bottom 20%

Of course when the bottom 20% is made up of people that have 20 kids with 11 women or single mom's with 2 baby daddies in prison I am not exactly surprised.

 

[HendrixFan]

http://mediatrackers.org/national/2...y-says-strong-families-strong-schools-are-key



Poverty does not cause people to have children out of wedlock. I am sure I can find numerous poor 3rd world countries with much lower rates of bastardom than black america.

Your own quote talks of the "correlation" between poverty and childbirth. So did I. They are certainly intertwined and as I have now stated a few times, one of the key issues that can be addressed to help solve the issues we are discussing.

I'm sure if you bother to look up children out of wedlock rates, or teen pregnancy rates (which mostly overlap but not always), you will find very high rates in lower income areas regardless of race. It isn't a "black america" issue as much as it is a "poor" issue. That is a common theme going through my posts in this thread, that much of what is attributed to problems with being black are really problems with being in poverty. Blacks in the upper quintiles don't commonly deal with those childbirth issues, whereas whites and hispanics in the bottom quintile absolutely do.

 

[Svnla]

My successful wife whose dirt poor family and herself fled a civil war so her mom could come here and clean toilets to send her to school disagrees with you. But hey, she didn't come with a chip on her should with expectations she's owed something.

Same here. I came here with nothing but clothes on my back and now I make decent money, have a comfortable life, and I have a small business on the side.

How did I do that? Maybe because I did not keep it real by knock off bitches and hoes when I was a teenager or rob a liquor store/bank or sell drugs? Or maybe because I don't believe in blame everyone else for self inflicted wound(s)? Or maybe because I believe in hard work and if you get knock down by whatever/whoever, get back and try it again even harder? And so on and on.

Just saying.

"Successful people make things happen, not sucessful people make excuses" - unknow author

 

[nehalem256]

Your own quote talks of the "correlation" between poverty and childbirth. So did I. They are certainly intertwined and as I have now stated a few times, one of the key issues that can be addressed to help solve the issues we are discussing.

I'm sure if you bother to look up children out of wedlock rates, or teen pregnancy rates (which mostly overlap but not always), you will find very high rates in lower income areas regardless of race. It isn't a "black america" issue as much as it is a "poor" issue. That is a common theme going through my posts in this thread, that much of what is attributed to problems with being black are really problems with being in poverty. Blacks in the upper quintiles don't commonly deal with those childbirth issues, whereas whites and hispanics in the bottom quintile absolutely do.

Absolutely true. If you have a child at 16 you have severely retarded your life prospects.

If you make bad choices why should I feel bad if you end up poor?

 

[HendrixFan]

Why do you assume this to be the case?

If 2 professional people with high incomes get married and have children wouldn't you expect their children to be of above average genetic stock?

There is only a small correlation between intelligence and genetics. The majority of differentiation that shows in testing between different income groups and their children's test scores have been shown to be due to environmental factors. At the beginning of a school year the improvement in scores for young children grows at similar rates by the end of the school year despite income classification. It is during the summer months that higher income households show a larger growth in their children's test scores than lower income households. That gap widens each summer in early education, but then stays consistent through the following school year. By fourth or fifth grade that 3 month boost adds up to a large overall advantage.

Not surprisingly home life is a huge factor in a child's education. There are advantages to having more than one parent, or parents who aren't working two or three jobs, or best yet - able to enroll them in activities that help teach them during the summer months.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

How do you accurately rate such a statistic of your ability to move up? If you live in a socialist nation, you should theoretically be on the same level - Correct?

The USA was never designed for that. Nor should it. It is designed based on your OWN ability through your OWN work and your OWN strive to make it. And holy fuck if you can get a $50k+ loan to get educated wherever the hell you want, you're insane to think that you don't have an ability to work yourself up the ladder.

It simply boils down to a matter of people that are willing the climb the latter - and those that aren't willing to climb the latter. This is why the middle class diminishes - the groups that aren't willing to climb the latter stay there. As you do that, that latter starts getting longer and longer and longer to set yourself apart.

The link on "social mobility" is also completely false. There is no statistic that links to how easy it is move up the latter. There is no 1 rating that indicates as such. The number of contributing factors is absolutely ginormous and would cover 2 pages, first being a different style of governing that is BASED on how hard you work.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Your own quote talks of the "correlation" between poverty and childbirth. So did I. They are certainly intertwined and as I have now stated a few times, one of the key issues that can be addressed to help solve the issues we are discussing.

I'm sure if you bother to look up children out of wedlock rates, or teen pregnancy rates (which mostly overlap but not always), you will find very high rates in lower income areas regardless of race. It isn't a "black america" issue as much as it is a "poor" issue. That is a common theme going through my posts in this thread, that much of what is attributed to problems with being black are really problems with being in poverty. Blacks in the upper quintiles don't commonly deal with those childbirth issues, whereas whites and hispanics in the bottom quintile absolutely do.

Perfect reasoning for why trying to determine social mobility is retarded:

Your correlation between poverty and childbirth - what is to state it is not
childbirth and lack of parenting? Funny, if you graphed that I'm pretty sure it would be the same.

 

[HendrixFan]

My successful wife whose dirt poor family and herself fled a civil war so her mom could come here and clean toilets to send her to school disagrees with you. But hey, she didn't come with a chip on her should with expectations she's owed something.

And everyone else from that country is worthless?

There is a difference between an exception and a rule. Just because Micheal Jordan won six championships doesn't mean I failed to do so because I didn't try hard enough at basketball over the years. I put in the time and effort, but the ceiling wasn't there. So did millions of others who didn't become Michael Jordan despite their best efforts.

Pointing out any deviation from the norm, while a great story and commendable effort on the part of the parties involved, does nothing to address the larger issue of societal change. You can't extrapolate one example as the blueprint for everyone.